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 Post subject: Book 4 - Page 20
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:11 pm 
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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:18 pm 
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    Wow, that was an intense update. Poor Bunny

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:21 pm 
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Year of the Dwagon Supporter Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter
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    Ponzie was worse than their dollamancer? That's pretty bad.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:31 pm 
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    So they are like the dolls and golems from Haffaton, except with more potential for rape and molestation. That's ah... unpleasant. Didn't I say that Bill was delusional? He wants his dolls to live, but just like Maxwell the Thinkamancer from the prequel, it's impossible. Dolls and golems can only SHARE strings from another unit. A Thinkamancer can't give a inanimate unit life, they can only share a life. The dolls and golems die when the one who casts the Thinkamancy dies. Once Maxwell died, his dolls and golems went back to being mindless. It seems creating strings can only be done by the Titans. Bill really is delusional. I was beginning to think I wrong about that based on other people's excellent theories.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:34 pm 
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    I´m beginning to wonder if Ponzis 'uprising' was nothing more than trying to beat Bill to death.

    And Don couldn´t allow it because his talents were needed for the side. Led to an heated argument in which Ponzi then attacked Don, causing his disbandment. Don probably only heard from Ponzis action from Bunny, explaining his trust in her. or she defended him from Ponzi.

    No matter what, thats right in the feels. Really liked the last part though. But Ponzi... well that just surprised me.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:36 pm 
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    The Great Minds violated Bunny worse than Bill did.

    And I didn't think I could despise them more.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:37 pm 
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    Pathor wrote:
    I´m beginning to wonder if Ponzis 'uprising' was nothing more than trying to beat Bill to death.

    And Don couldn´t allow it because his talents were needed for the side. Led to an heated argument in which Ponzi then attacked Don, causing his disbandment. Don probably only heard from Ponzis action from Bunny, explaining his trust in her. or she defended him from Ponzi.

    No matter what, thats right in the feels. Really liked the last part though. But Ponzi... well that just surprised me.


    Given the pose that Bill was assuming in the dungeon, it seems likely that there was something much worse involved than a simple beating. The rest of your post seems spot on though.

    All in all, Holy Fuck what a heavy update.


    Last edited by Axiom on Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:39 pm 
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    So, Bunny's first mistake was telling the Great Minds about her experiments.
    Bunny's second mistake was putting Thinkamancy before her Side.
    And when Ponzi attempted his coup, she commited her third mistake helping Don. But, why?

    Also, Nobody in TV saw the doll's utility? Nobody ordered her to make more?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:40 pm 
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    Did Caesar and Bill even discuss what was originally intended: Vanna?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:42 pm 
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    I wonder... how messed up was Bill when he and Bunny made the first Doll? And how much of his behavior now comes from Ponzie breaking him?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:45 pm 
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    11 days of torture so bad that thousands of turns later, that Bill is still absolutely terrified of being punished. I honestly don't know who to feel sorry for here. Bunny definitely. I wonder if Bunny told the Great Minds about what Bill was doing. If she didn't, then I'm not sure they have much blame here. You would have to be pretty disturbed to predict that Bill would start having sex with the doll. If she did tell them and they still didn't revoke her restrictions in order to allow her to deal with the problem. I don't think I feel bad about Bill. I hate Ponzie now though, the sicko.

    Whispri wrote:
    Ponzie was worse than their dollamancer? That's pretty bad.


    I didn't see that coming. I figured he did something wrong to have Bunny turn on him, but I figured that she regretted her decision to not support him. Now it just seems like she loved him, but wanted him gone in the end or just didn't care if he died.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:47 pm 
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    WarFAN wrote:
    So, Bunny's first mistake was telling the Great Minds about her experiments.
    Bunny's second mistake was putting Thinkamancy before her Side.
    And when Ponzi attempted his coup, she commited her third mistake helping Don. But, why?

    Also, Nobody in TV saw the doll's utility? Nobody ordered her to make more?


    A lot of readers have taken orders to be impossible to refuse but it's simply not true. She could have easily refused orders from Don to create more. Almost certainly would have. Don would likely have disbanded her for doing so. She knew that and Don knew that. So Don didn't give an order he knew she would refuse and which would force him to disband her. Hypothetically speaking.

    Mad Raven wrote:
    I wonder... how messed up was Bill when he and Bunny made the first Doll? And how much of his behavior now comes from Ponzie breaking him?


    I wonder this as well.

    Thecommander236 wrote:
    I wonder if Bunny told the Great Minds about what Bill was doing. If she didn't, then I'm not sure they have much blame here. You would have to be pretty disturbed to predict that Bill would start having sex with the doll.


    I've, thus far, gotten the impression that the GMs don't care. They really see their secrets as being above all.

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    Last edited by JadedDragoon on Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:47 pm 
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    Holy boop, I was not expecting Bunny to become one of the most sympathetic characters in Erfworld. Almost every theory I have had or read about TV’s previous coup attempt has been upended, but I couldn’t be more enthralled. I love the court of TV all the more now, save Bill though I somehow find myself pitying him now other than just being repulsed.

    Happyturtle, you’re spot on; this paints the GMs in a much worse light than we’ve previously seen. It’s bad enough for Bill to enact that type of abuse against a member of his own side, but for the GMs to expect a fellow mind to live with that torture just to maintain their secrets? That’s unconscionable.

    I hope more than ever that a GK/TV alliance comes from this arc because I would love the main TV cast to become protagonists, but I really fear they might be in the perfect position for a Greek-style tragedy.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:50 pm 
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    Mad Raven wrote:
    I wonder... how messed up was Bill when he and Bunny made the first Doll? And how much of his behavior now comes from Ponzie breaking him?


    Still pretty messed up, given the way he treated Bunny after she ended the experiments.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:50 pm 
    Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter This user is a Tool! Year of the Dwagon Supporter This user was a Tool before it was cool Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day Erfmover Supporter Arkenhammer Supporter Won Mine4erf for the Marbits
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    This is a really good update, if a bit harrowing and unpleasant as well. At least that's one story secret revealed.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:51 pm 
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    The Great Minds have always seemed to have a problem with empathy, so I'm pretty sure their restrictions on Bunny were made without really understanding the potential consequences.

    Whether they'd care if they knew was another matter.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:52 pm 
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    WarFAN: She probably cannot make more. And in any case, she isn't linking with Bill again!

    Y'know, I told myself that this wasn't where the story was heading. Because I didn't want to believe it.

    Ew.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:54 pm 
    Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter This user is a Tool! Year of the Dwagon Supporter This user was a Tool before it was cool Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day Erfmover Supporter Arkenhammer Supporter Won Mine4erf for the Marbits
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    Also, Caesar has a lot more heart and decency inside than I would have expected, which was a nice surprise.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:54 pm 
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    Brutal, brutal update. I am not fond of the rape subtext, of course, but it is...not gratifying, since I'm not happy at all..."good" to see rape being used against both genders. I am also surprised at Caesar's relatively kind, commander-type treatment of Bill. Restraint was used.

    Here is where we see the dichotomy in the approach to physical assault vs. rape. Caesar is marked as a "better" man because he would only beat the hell out of someone. Ponzi is implied to be a "worse" man because he would both beat the hell out of and sexually assault someone. Nine days of beatings might be okayish, but I think the rape might conceptually push it over the edge. Am I making sense?

    Now we know why Bunny isn't down there having pleasant chats with Maggie. I am glad to see Bunny being the person I hoped she was.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:57 pm 
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    happyturtle wrote:
    Mad Raven wrote:
    I wonder... how messed up was Bill when he and Bunny made the first Doll? And how much of his behavior now comes from Ponzie breaking him?


    Still pretty messed up, given the way he treated Bunny after she ended the experiments.

    From the way everyone in TV acts, I believe Bill has always been at the very least an odd ball. His actions in this update make him seem almost childlike. He was completely unable to overcome his urges given the opportunity, but also completely expecting the punishment when being found out, all while preparing for it and dreading it.

    My take away is he’s slightly mentally deficient but almost savant like in his casting and almost no impulse control. I also wouldn’t doubt he took his collaboration with Bunny as indication of some connection between the two and then used the doll as a proxy since he couldn’t have her and knew, at least part of her detachment from the project wasn’t her choice.

    Damn this update was deep as.

    Edited to kill a double negative.

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    Last edited by Father Prime on Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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