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 Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:09 pm 
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A slightly different perspective:

I don't think it matters whether this was technically a "deus ex machina," however different people want to define it. There is a Sign for what we are talking about that has more dimensions than three words. Which is why people are arguing.

Awakened towers (and probably Arkentools) have powers that nobody else has. They are very powerful. Absent a positive or negative judgment on the value of giving them these powers -- those feelings being one Sign-dimension of what we are talking about -- I think we can all agree that having extremely powerful characters represents a challenge for the storyteller and story. If the superpowers can do just anything, the story begins to feel like meaningless whim. Readers start to lose their emotional investment.

Personally I find myself fine with this turn of events, but I think it's understandable that it's setting off "new characters are too powerful" alarms, in a lot of readers, to varying degrees.

I strongly suspect this is not a surprise to Rob. So the question is, "now what?"

People are already talking about this, but to recap:

Tools and Towers can "steal" from the Source to break what otherwise seem like rules.

When Awakened, Towers have feels about this. There is at least a taboo, very possible some innate lawfulness and sense of fairness in them.

The first theft was from Charlie and when his own Tower became aware, she shut it down.

Since then, the other "thefts" were done in the context of a feeling of laboring under the injustice of the "cheating" already done.

So there is a metastory between the Tutelaries, they woke up, someone was cheating, they all know it's a problem, but others are finding themselves able to cheat in response to it.

But they still have that sense of right and wrong about it, and also a sense they will get in trouble in some way.

I can see a few ways this might go. Some of it depends on whether the Tutelaries answer to a higher (and apparently slow to react) being (s), or only to themselves.

This is getting long so. They could collectively to agree to all be more serious about the rules. They could take the gloves off and all start draining the Source more and more. (The "The Magic Goes Away" scenario is intriguing.) There could be another level of deus (sorry) above them.

Or... This "sense of fairness" thing could remain a strong but not insurmountable barrier, meaning these kinds of things will just unpredictably happen when a tower is emotionally pushed over the edge by their weird innate sense of justice, everyone gets mad / feels bad, there is no enforcement mechanism, the towers and tools are the pantheon of gods and they just keep on griping at each other like Zeus and Hera.

I don't know how satisfying that would be. Different people would have different feels.

Any other ideas for how it's handled moving forward?

tymd

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:16 pm 
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    Omg I'm so happy. I was about to be so heartbroken if Transylvito had fallen.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:36 pm 
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    On the Deus Ex Machina:

    It seems there are a few points that keep coming up in repetition among forum goers here.

      There's precedence for x, y, and x.

    There's precedence for actions with the framework they occurred in. Yes, we've seen heirs promoted off-turn, but only if the side had the schmuckers to spend. Yes, we've seen a ditto prolong a turn beyond their ruler's death, but only if a dittomancer made a ruler ditto in advance. Yes, we've seen that contracts can be changed, if both sides agree on it.

    The deus ex machina here, the contrivance, is that these rules were established within their context of other established rules. The cheating of prior rules like a side ending once a ruler is croaked was already side-stepped within the rules with the existence of a Ditto. To bend the rules again, even further, strains suspension of disbelief and renders those self same rules unreliable. This is a recurring theme and the central problem.

      The deus has already been on stage, it's not sudden!

    Putting the deus on the stage (Book 3) was part of the original complaint about these books having too much deus ex machina. That the deus ex machina started back in Book 3 doesn't make each instance of "By the way, the deus on stage can do this" any less of a contrivance. That you put the deus on stage in order to use it later to amend your own rules doesn't make it seem less of a contrivance. It's still, from a writing perspective, telling a story of "I know we established this would be the way x was resolved, but I didn't tell you y could step in and do this, did I?!" The revelation itself is sudden and disregards what was established. That's the contrivance.

      But Erfworld has always been about breaking the rules!

    Erfworld has been about lateral thinking. The "Uncroaking a Volcano" wasn't breaking rules established, we knew casters could link, we knew linking could provide a mix of different elements. What made that seem brilliant and this seem contrived was that thinking of a dormant volcano as an unliving form and "bringing it back to life" already fit within the parameters that were established: Dirtamancers could manipulate Erf, Croakamancers could bring things back to life, together they could bring established Erf fixtures back to life. This isn't building on prior rules, it's outright breaking them.

    The Pliers had been another introduced cheat, but with them we were given limitations and we'd been agonizing over the exact limits with each update, extrapolating based on its existence as a set of pliers. The Arkentools were established from the onset of the story as being different but also still having their own set of limitations. Oh, it can make units come back to life, but not decay? That's like uncroaking, it's like mending, it makes sense. It can cut threads? Pliers cut things, that makes sense, but it can only cut threads connected to those it effects, there's a limitation. The dish can pick up signals? That's what satellite dishes do, that makes sense.

    Tutelaries haven't had a physical tell, and their powers have been all over the place. Giving sentience to a city, you'd expect it would have knowledge of or influence over itself. A capital city, which is the heart of a side? Okay, I can accept they have a connection to each and every unit. They can sense other units (Juggle Elves), take as much power as they want and turn it into money and juice and spend it as though they were casters of every discipline? Where's the precedence for that?

      You just don't like that x happened, so you're complaining

    Whether we like what happened or not doesn't affect how sudden and divergent any resolution might be.

      It's not a Deus ex Machina, problems still exist!

    The Deus doesn't have to resolve every problem for it to be one, it just has to solve one. Every problem it solves is a single instance of Deus Ex Machina, a singular contrivance. It doesn't become less of one because there are still problems that haven't met a contrived resolution.

    Ultimately, I think the sour taste in peoples' mouths comes down to this: Erfworld is moving from a hard magic system to a soft one. The initial draw for a lot of people was learning all the rules in Erfworld, and then learning how to solve problems within that framework. Parson uncroaking a volcano and harvesting Dwagons mid-air off-turn are both examples of that. The rules are still in place, they're being leveraged.

    What we're seeing more and more of are ways to outright circumvent the rules, though, culminating in cities themselves drawing from an infinite well of juice and shmuckers and applying it however they so choose. Who needs Lookamancy when a tower can tell you where to go and who you'll find, solving Stanley's problem of having no natural allies. Who needs to find a Dirtamancer to link with in order to recreate a shocked connection and rebuild the city just as you imagine when you can have one just restructure and remotely turn on and off lights, solving Charlie's problem of being handicapped? Can't bother sifting through every bat to find the channel you need, well your city can simultaneously open all channels and bypass that limitation for you. Who needs Jack to stumble upon correspondence when your city can know for you "That Dirtamancer is a traitor, disband him." This latest one is the one that just takes the cake. "Oh, the side was going to end for you? I'll take care of that."

    There are ultimately two problems that emerge from this. The first is that you can only pull the same trick so many times. Once you start disregarding your own established rules, your rules become meaningless, people won't invest in them as much the next time, and less the time after that, until you end up with no means of creating tension because it'll surely all work out, and if not, it's only because the writer wrote it that way. We end up with a Gandalf: He can totally solve all these problems with magic, but these ones he can't, and even if he finally dies he can just come back. Why can't he solve all these other problems? Because he wasn't written to. Soft Magic System: It does what we need it to when we need it to.

    The other problem is that this severely hamstrings the agency of our protagonists. If all it takes is something to come along and solve the problem for out protagonists, they don't need to solve it themselves. This has been a concern I've seen voiced in the community for a while now: That problems are being solved around Parson rather than by him. If we can't rely on the characters to either solve their own problems or deal with the repurcussions, then everything is arbitrary.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:57 pm 
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    Showerthought:

    It'd been suggested earlier in the comic that willingly walking into one's own possible death has powerful Fate-related ramifications by way of natural croakamancy, and actually dying from it magnifies the effect.

    Now that it's definitely confirmed, I had a thought: Maxwell (Haffaton's old thinkamancer) destroyed himself on purpose, cutting his own strings, while linked up with a (possibly Master-class) Croakamancer. This makes me think of two questions:

    1) What was his dying wish?
    2) Did he commit suicide under those circumstances specifically to give it the greatest possible chance of taking effect?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:12 pm 
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    Yumeijin wrote:
    Who needs Jack to stumble upon correspondence when your city can know for you "That Dirtamancer is a traitor, disband him." This latest one is the one that just takes the cake. "Oh, the side was going to end for you? I'll take care of that."


    Actually, page 303 - Traitorness is only not known by Ceasar since he wasn't looking that way.

    And heir-making uses Source Energy to replace Smuckers? Source Energy is all Resources?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:43 pm 
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    First, thanks for your intelligent and thoughtful post. In the interests of time, I’m only responding to those parts I’m most interested in; the whole thing was appreciated, however, even if I might not agree with much of it.

    Yumeijin wrote:
    Ultimately, I think the sour taste in peoples' mouths comes down to this: Erfworld is moving from a hard magic system to a soft one. The initial draw for a lot of people was learning all the rules in Erfworld, and then learning how to solve problems within that framework. Parson uncroaking a volcano and harvesting Dwagons mid-air off-turn are both examples of that. The rules are still in place, they're being leveraged.


    See, I get where you’re coming from because I was one of those readers back in Book One. But the end of Book One (and the essentially limitless flexibility of potentially gamebreaking tri-links), and the author’s own comments about the game system, and the ensuing direction of the plot, all thoroughly disabused me of the notion that I’d ever get a hard system. And that was OK because the story was still brilliant. Respectfully, if you’re hoping for disclosure of a hard system, I think you’re setting yourself up for disappointment. I believe Rob has said explicitly that he’s only going to reveal that which is necessary for the plot, and although there hopefully won’t be contradictions, there are always going to be surprises.

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    There are ultimately two problems that emerge from this. The first is that you can only pull the same trick so many times. Once you start disregarding your own established rules, your rules become meaningless, people won't invest in them as much the next time, and less the time after that, until you end up with no means of creating tension because it'll surely all work out, and if not, it's only because the writer wrote it that way. We end up with a Gandalf: He can totally solve all these problems with magic, but these ones he can't, and even if he finally dies he can just come back. Why can't he solve all these other problems? Because he wasn't written to. Soft Magic System: It does what we need it to when we need it to.


    I agree with you that could be a theoretical problem. But given the suspense level and artful writing, it has not been an actual problem; and I bet it will not be. I have great confidence Rob is aware of all of these dynamics, including the OP nature of Towers, and that he will be able to rein it in... he’s even signaled how (the code of honor that Towers might break occasionally, but likely won’t regularly, Huehue’s new self-perception as a villain notwithstanding).

    Quote:
    The other problem is that this severely hamstrings the agency of our protagonists. If all it takes is something to come along and solve the problem for out protagonists, they don't need to solve it themselves. This has been a concern I've seen voiced in the community for a while now: That problems are being solved around Parson rather than by him. If we can't rely on the characters to either solve their own problems or deal with the repurcussions, then everything is arbitrary.


    I’ve been highlighting this issue right alongside you, especially with respect to Parson. And although it has been a frustrating Book Four in that regard, again, I trust it will improve. If not, then I think your (our) concerns become more justified. As it stands, I think one of the themes of the story is how Parson makes everyone around him better, and we’ve seen that developed in spades in Book Four.

    Again, thanks for your thoughts!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:03 pm 
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    There are two major direction shifts that just happened.

    The first (and the only one I made sure I wasn't ninja-ed on) is that Shirley's about to have a major change of heart about Charlie. Pointyleaf and Umbrathor both touched on this, but given the era Shirley's from, my opinion is she's going to greet Charlie with a profound apology.

    It's going to be all, "Oh slugger, I am *so* sorrt for doubting you. I thought I could show you the rules were there for a good reason and wrap this up for you in a big pretty bow while you recovered and... I just messed everything up! I didn't know what kind of brutes, what thugs you were dealing with, angel! Of course you had to take shortcuts! I shoulda known you could do no wrong. But listen. I get it now. It's you and me against the world! You wanna build a portal powered lightning gun? Let's talk what color to make it."

    The second is a pretty meta change. It's the next step in the evolution of the game we've seen slowly happen over the course of the comic. When we first were introduced to Erfworld, everyone had to follow the rules. They were like laws of nature. Then we were introduced to Carnymancy, which is cheating within the rules by abusing the exact wording. Then we saw Jed break the rules in order to overcome this cheating within the rules, which in a lot of ways foreshadowed what Huehue just did. Huehue openly broke the words of the rules to enforce the spirit they were written in. That's a big first in this comic.

    In a lot of ways this does raise the question of what the Towers are again. Are they leftover AIs from some time long ago, or do they represent players taking over what used to be GM-run NPC sides?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:08 pm 
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    I think the workings of it was that while Caesar was dead, his legal proxy remained. Which was good enough to work with.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:26 pm 
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    Just a random idea here, feel free to ignore me, but how about we take two minutes away from fighting over the technical definitions of thousands of years old terminology to discuss whether Skyy is absolutely huge all of a sudden? I mean she looks like she's a full 50% taller than Cheri. Maybe there's some perspective going on but even then, she's big.

    What means this sizeamancy?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:27 pm 
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    The Unlurked wrote:
    In a lot of ways this does raise the question of what the Towers are again. Are they leftover AIs from some time long ago, or do they represent players taking over what used to be GM-run NPC sides?


    Honestly, it's starting to feel like the towers represent the decay of the fundamental existence of Erfworld itself.

    The rules are simply starting to break down. Everybody's cheating wholesale. The Pliers are a cheat. Isaac is a cheat, and he's going to get even cheatier when he grabs the Pliers. The tutelaries are a cheat. The story has simply outpaced Parson's metagaming into pure, outright "Screw the rules, I have Power" cheating.

    This was not a good direction for the story to go, but that's what's happened.

    The final line of this story- assuming that it actually ever does get an ending- is starting to look like "And then everything fell apart. The end."

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:51 pm 
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    Inst wrote:
    Wow, nice twist.

    I'd also point out that the un-Sign ability that Huehue has is probably more limited than you think; the Signature Caesar had on the contract was Dittoed, to begin with, so Huehue just un-Dittoed it.

    By the way, can Book 5 be Deus Ex Machina free? It's pretty annoying when people are just pulling abilities out of nowhere (Huehue surprise promoting Skyy, for instance); it makes it terrible for the narrative.


    I agree with the un-sign ability being limited (tipped you btw), but this episode is totally not a case of Deus Ex. Skyy becoming a Queen was heavily foreshadowed, it was just a question of how. Caesar being depressed and then losing his will to live, again, all well established. Even "cheating" Towers as a mechanic - Jed rescuing Parson from the scroll... in hindsight all these fits the internal logic of the story/setting - what makes this episode such brilliant was how Balder managed to resolve the issues that he had been building up to at the same time as surprising us as to the how.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:53 pm 
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    Windscion wrote:
    Adept wrote:
    Even so, I think we're still going to see our Velveteen Rabbit become a real girl, one way or another.

    Huh? She became a Real Girl(TM) instead. And there is no reason to bring her back without Caesar, who isn't coming back.

    You sir, are a ruffian and a scoundrel. How dare you suggest that Erfworld's greatest character has no reason to be repopped. She is a woman of high level, impeccable signamancy, and knows many of the secrets of the Great Minds. I demand an apology forthwith.

    Fla_Panther wrote:
    ObliqueFault wrote:
    Despite being female, the Tzitzimimeh had rattlesnake penises.


    Don't all women?

    I too am awaiting the Skyy 34.

    Book 4, page 316 wrote:
    SHIRLEY: Well, what about the environment? Have you ever thought of that?

    With all of this stealing energy from the source, I'm starting to worry about the environment. I predict we're gonna see acid rain hexes soon enough.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:31 pm 
    This user is a Tool! Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Has collected at least one unit Here for the 10th Anniversary E is for Erfworld Supporter Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter This user has been published! Won Mine4erf for the Gobwins Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day Diamonds Suit Pip Hearts Suit Pip Erfmover Supporter
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    labster wrote:
    Book 4, page 316 wrote:
    SHIRLEY: Well, what about the environment? Have you ever thought of that?

    With all of this stealing energy from the source, I'm starting to worry about the environment. I predict we're gonna see acid rain hexes soon enough.


    I'm betting we're going to start finding "dead" hexes. Hexes that used to have an environment in it, and are now dead and devoid of any life. Forests, plants, all withered and dried, and all animal life within it deceased.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:25 pm 
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    Veovis7 wrote:
    I'm betting we're going to start finding "dead" hexes. Hexes that used to have an environment in it, and are now dead and devoid of any life. Forests, plants, all withered and dried, and all animal life within it deceased.


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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:28 pm 
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    Veovis7 wrote:
    labster wrote:
    Book 4, page 316 wrote:
    SHIRLEY: Well, what about the environment? Have you ever thought of that?

    With all of this stealing energy from the source, I'm starting to worry about the environment. I predict we're gonna see acid rain hexes soon enough.


    I'm betting we're going to start finding "dead" hexes. Hexes that used to have an environment in it, and are now dead and devoid of any life. Forests, plants, all withered and dried, and all animal life within it deceased.

    Image
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magic_Goes_Away

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:04 am 
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    Shai hulud wrote:
    Veovis7 wrote:
    I'm betting we're going to start finding "dead" hexes. Hexes that used to have an environment in it, and are now dead and devoid of any life. Forests, plants, all withered and dried, and all animal life within it deceased.

    Image
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magic_Goes_Away


    I haven't heard of that series before (though of course I've heard of Niven), but that's pretty much exactly the idea I was getting at. It's also a realistic worry, given how literally everything essential to life in Erfworld seems to run on Natural Magic of one kind or another. Everything from the life cycles of the plants and animals — chickens on a farm popping in and out of existence, for example — food popping, automagical income in the form of Shmuckers. That's all magic.

    If magic starts failing generally, the world will be in a very bad way, very quickly indeed.

    The real reason why the GMTTA may have forbidden themselves from remembering their Decisions about Tutelaries in the past may have been because if Tutelaries are widespread, they actually represent an existential threat to life in Erfworld, due to their ability to siphon energy from the Source.

    After all, you can't intentionally create something without already having the concept of it, so removing the concept from general circulation is quite effective. And very few native Erfworlders would have the opportunity or desire to combine a Thinkamancer-Dirtamancer-Dollamancer link and apply the resulting gestalt to a city's tower just to "see what would happen."

    Really, who else would do that, besides Parson?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:17 am 
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    Bandaid wrote:
    Unless someone explicitly shows me that she gained the royal status/special I assume that is a polite form of adress/title.

    If towers actually have the power to make you royal and word gets out it would be another thing to totally shake up the status quo in Erfworld. Besides the other two dozen things which happened in recent turns.
    Royal vs Noble have been pretty distinct (if related) statuses in Erfworld so far but IRL it was of course a lot fuzzier. Royalty were just a king/queen and their immediate family, eg nobility of very high status. Some royalty were actually subjects of Emperors. And plenty of nobility never claimed a royal title but were still independent Rulers. I think that when "creating" a kingdom for convenience's sake powerful people would sometimes install some significant noble as a king, although I also often remember some non-ruler royalty (some uncle/brother) in another existing kingdom getting imported into the new kingdom as it's royalty.

    Not really satisfactory from a mechanics perspective, I know, but I for one don't mind that bit of "cheating" in the face of all the other things we've seen.

    HighJumper wrote:
    Excellent work. This transition has been thoroughly foreshadowed, especially with sacrifice impelling Huehue's actions and relating to Aztec blood sacrifices. And the ART! Beautifully done.

    My only distracting thought was "Where's Benny?" I was checking out the gold and black off of Skyy's right hip for a while, wondering if it was a sleeve and wondering why Benjamin's outfit would have changed and been eclipsed so thoroughly, before I realized it's Skyy's adjusted pistol holster. I'm pretty sure he's still in the room, but he and Bill must be off to the sides or one side.
    Yeah, I was really suddenly struck by the significance of sacrifice and, particularly, hearts in this update. Feeling pretty dumb for having missed that.

    I'm feeling bad for Benny myself. As others have pointed out he might fit in with a modern gangster, scarface signamancied side, but he's an old TV unit who all of TV seems to have had a lot of respect for and who's shown quite a bit of cunning. And then, when Huehue picks a new heir for TV, he goes for... the tenturn old "onesie" with the gunsie? It feels like that might sting :|

    Ansan Gotti wrote:
    Just had a thought. A bunch of super-powerful, sentient Towers who interact with their own mercurial Rulers and create a bunch of OP chaos is pretty much the ultimate nightmare scenario for the uptight, controlling, orderly cabal of the GMTTA. No question they’d want to shut off that Erfworld feature and seal away from everyone even the memory of it.
    Any reference for the GMTTA having that opinion? I'm not questioning it, I seem to vaguely remember the same thing and the thread seems to agree with you too. But apparently they didn't consider it a big enough deal/priority to try and act to stifle that sort of thing like they did with Bunny, Bill, and the real dolls.

    And it is hilarious and somewhat confusing that Big Think, the remainders of the GMTTA, eventually decides to go out of it's way to start creating as many of those Tutelaries as possible :)

    labster wrote:
    Fla_Panther wrote:
    ObliqueFault wrote:
    Despite being female, the Tzitzimimeh had rattlesnake penises.


    Don't all women?

    I too am awaiting the Skyy 34.
    Rule 34 aside, any Skyy pinup by Xin would of course be PG 13. Perhaps some sort of large, python type snake to cover up the waist and naughty bits. And to create... interesting implications ;)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:25 am 
    This user is a Tool! Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Has collected at least one unit Here for the 10th Anniversary E is for Erfworld Supporter Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter This user has been published! Won Mine4erf for the Gobwins Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day Diamonds Suit Pip Hearts Suit Pip Erfmover Supporter
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    DukeofTuring wrote:
    Ansan Gotti wrote:
    Just had a thought. A bunch of super-powerful, sentient Towers who interact with their own mercurial Rulers and create a bunch of OP chaos is pretty much the ultimate nightmare scenario for the uptight, controlling, orderly cabal of the GMTTA. No question they’d want to shut off that Erfworld feature and seal away from everyone even the memory of it.

    Any reference for the GMTTA having that opinion? I'm not questioning it, I seem to vaguely remember the same thing and the thread seems to agree with you too. But apparently they didn't consider it a big enough deal/priority to try and act to stifle that sort of thing like they did with Bunny, Bill, and the real dolls.

    And it is hilarious and somewhat confusing that Big Think, the remainders of the GMTTA, eventually decides to go out of it's way to start creating as many of those Tutelaries as possible :)


    It's from Page 274 of Book 3 (or the middle of book 4, whatever.) https://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/274

    Big Think wrote:
    And we have Decided this before! Forbidden ourselves from even knowing this was Decided!


    The implication definitely is that, at some point in the past, a Tutelary was created and destroyed, and they hushed it up, and even made themselves forget that Tutelaries could exist, because they're that dangerous. (Though admittedly, some of that is reading into it a bit.)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:26 am 
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    it may just be me... but it looks like (the)Skyy Queen just went Aztec on us... will this transform transylvito into an Aztec based side? not too far fetched considering Aztec vampyr mythology, would be interesting to see happen (not to mention the signamancy of the events happening at this moment)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:31 am 
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    Ok, read through everything, time to post.

    Bunny is coming back, but it won't be the one you know. This will require whatever is left of Bunny's string from doll or Bill, and will bring back the old Bunny, as she was, way back when she and Bill made the doll. Young. Curious. Inventive. Skyy could use the help.

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