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 Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 164
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:13 pm 
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Morgaln wrote:
Caprice wrote:
Morgaln wrote:
Because there's no way Charlie intends not to destroy TV after all this, he just wants his stuff back first. Dolls probably can't use guns, so he needs someone to shoot Caesar once the unilateral ceasefire has been reversed.

Charlie's not going to destroy TV until the "baby" is popped, unless he comes up with a way to protect himself from Shirley's wrath.


Yeah, but that wasn't his original plan when he made those demands.

True, but Shirley didn't hesitate to remind him, and he moved quickly to remedy the situation.

Charlie is now aware that not only can Shirley snatch the dish away again, but she can collapse CC's tower with everyone in it. That's a pretty large bargaining chip she has there. Vanna and the "baby" are her main concerns and he's very aware that anything he does that results in their destruction may have serious personal consequences. He may be willing to sacrifice Shirley at a later date, but not until he's sure that he and the archons can survive.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 164
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:36 pm 
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    Great update! Can't wait to see where this goes!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 164
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:39 pm 
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    I'm excited to see Charlie in a new light: "Go to posture: "emotional meltdown."

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 164
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:34 pm 
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    Axiom wrote:
    Yeah, I definitely went over the top with my response. You're right that I was more hyperbolic than I needed to be. In defense of myself, my reaction to the last few paragraphs of the update was awe at how emotionally shredded Charlie's about to be. When I came onto the forums, I felt that people weren't understanding how big of a deal this really was. Charlie's barely keeping it together as it is and he's about to get absolutely gutted. I was riding the emotional high from the update, I guess.

    I'd agree with everything you said, including that the reveal probably wasn't intentional by GK. I have a feeling that it's going to be pretty effective, despite that.


    Major thanks and bonus points to you for your good-natured and even-handed response. :)

    FWIW, I did enjoy your first post, strongly-worded or no. :D

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 164
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:58 pm 
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    tomaO2 wrote:
    greycat wrote:
    Charlie was going to let the TV tower collapse and kill Caesar, Bill, Benny, Maggie, Jack, Skyy, and everyone else in the tower. He had run his analysis and decided it was an acceptable loss.

    What stopped him was Shirley. We were shown this, just a few pages ago.


    But the only reason he let Shirley convince him was because Parson was taken out of the picture, that was also clearly shown.


    No. That was his rationalisation, not his reason.

    What's the deal? Let the tower collapse, net losses = One dollamancer, significantly dodgy, one turnamancer, used. Net gains - contract cancelled, 20 mil returned, 2 hostile casters taken out of play... and no witnesses.

    Big Game or no Big Game, that's a Charlie play. There's no way, in my mind, that he would go for any other outcome without Shirley's intervention, even if Parson had never come to Erf. Letting the tower fall is a certain win. Any other choice runs a risk of a turnaround - and Charlie never plays a hand he can lose.

    So Shirley didn't persuade Charlie to do the right thing. She made him. Shirley has Charlie scared - and that's a big thing, because when you get a bully frightened, there will be blood.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 164
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:23 pm 
    Mined 4 Erf Has collected at least one unit Won Mine4erf for the Gobwins This user is a Tool!
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    This is late reaction to an earlier panal but this panel made me realize Charlie likely has a plan B for dealing with Shirley as well as an invasion of CC through the portal if it looks like he'll loose.

    Several updates before we saw Eleanor at a remote site and the implication she's been there for a very long time. Now that Charlie knows that the tower can be destroyed (and in turn destroy him), he has one out; he could have a unit of Charlescomm claim a new capital site, and then change the capital from CC to wherever. Assuming Charlie's wheelie is the throne, he could move the capital at any moment.

    That would both move the portal to Bumbleboop, Erf, and allow him to move both the dish and himself away from Shirley. Only downside is he'll loose the shocked connection to the dish (which is bad, but better than being croaked) and he can't get CC back as his capital short of going to the new site and moving it back. I do think it's mentioned that CC has additional capital sites in it's buffer zone.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 164
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:40 pm 
    Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter This user is a Tool! This user was a Tool before it was cool Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter This user posted the comment of the month Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter Won Mine4erf for the Gobwins Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day
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    What a great update.

    Loved the ending really felt the knot in Charlie's stomach form.

    In terms of Parson bursting onto the scene - Top marks. He is the Chief Warlord he has two of his casters in a war zone, his newly won ally in a literal choke hold and his entire treasury (or what is left of it) in TV.

    I'd struggle to see why he wouldn't act? Only one person has proven to be a consistent match for Charlie and that is Parson. The stakes are pretty clearly shown here - TV are screwed, Maggie and Jack cannot act and even the two Warlady's on the rampage while a threat, Charlie could literally end Caesar at any time if they get too close and then Parson has two of his best units and a decrypted one at that as prisoners of Charlie.

    The element of surprise really doesn't give Parson any true advantages unless he has a plan that requires it and is the element of surprise for a plan he doesn't even have at the moment worth - his treasury, two of his best units, Charlie having a Decrypted to dissect, his newly found ally and a strong strategic advantage he gained with TV turning on FAQ?

    I personally don't think it is but opinions may differ.

    From a narrative perspective - Top marks. The protagonist being pro-active and driving the narrative is a sight for sore eyes!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 164
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:55 pm 
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    So, a quick point (that I hope no one already noticed):

    Has anyone taken a moment to realize that we've dealt with a Temple for far longer in Erfworld, long before Jed was born?

    The Temple of the Thinkamancers.

    I propose that, at some point in ancient Erf History, a Temple was created as an experiment (this was hinted at by the most ancient decision tree they were going to revisit before Charlie dropped a roof on them all). The Thinkamancers, realizing what they had done, basically put the Temple into a comatose State. They then used the juice from the Source to create Rands as a unique form of currency to the Magic Kingdom.

    Not sure if this theory will ever be explained, but its an interesting little thought, nonetheless.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 164
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:01 pm 
    Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter This user is a Tool! This user was a Tool before it was cool Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter This user posted the comment of the month Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter Won Mine4erf for the Gobwins Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day
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    It is an interesting theory my personal theory is the 'Temples' where the original 'players' of Erfworld as they really seem to care about playing fair and the rules and over time they where silenced when their sides fell and then over time and because knowledge is difficult to retain in Erfworld where forgotten by nearly everyone apart from very capable people and groups such as the GMTTA.

    The GMTTA potentially decided long ago to not bring them back but as a final act have re-visited that decision and now see them as a natural part of Erfworld.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 164
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:11 pm 
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    Bobfromjanitorial wrote:
    Parson tipping his hand at this juncture is a good move, because it's his only move.

    Let's list all the things Parson can accomplish clandestinely that would effect the outcomes of the TV/Maggie/Jack situation, the Wanda/MK situation, or could strengthen his position while he's off-turn, has no thinkamancer, and has been physically removed from the situation:
    Nothing

    Seriously, how does hiding until the end of turn help him? He had his plans, but a wrench got thrown into them (no Wanda, no hacked portal, no TV/bats, no gem stockpile).
    Parson is working under time constraints, without resources he needs, and with all previous plans gone to crap.
    Jumping back into the fray is the only move available.


    Nothing? I'd say there's stuff he could do. Would it work? Who knows... and true he doesn't have full MK information. But Sizemore could blow the cover off the MK portal, he, Ace and Parson could go rescue the prisoners (They'd have two guns plus Parson could bring a miracle pole and even some spares). That group stepping through the portal would be more than enough to flip the balance of power in TV. Shoot Bill, rescue Caesar, and go Moll hunting. Tell the CC Tower that they can have Vanna back in exchange for the stolen gems.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 164
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:17 pm 
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    Radagast wrote:
    Bobfromjanitorial wrote:
    Parson tipping his hand at this juncture is a good move, because it's his only move.

    Let's list all the things Parson can accomplish clandestinely that would effect the outcomes of the TV/Maggie/Jack situation, the Wanda/MK situation, or could strengthen his position while he's off-turn, has no thinkamancer, and has been physically removed from the situation:
    Nothing

    Seriously, how does hiding until the end of turn help him? He had his plans, but a wrench got thrown into them (no Wanda, no hacked portal, no TV/bats, no gem stockpile).
    Parson is working under time constraints, without resources he needs, and with all previous plans gone to crap.
    Jumping back into the fray is the only move available.


    Nothing? I'd say there's stuff he could do. Would it work? Who knows... and true he doesn't have full MK information. But Sizemore could blow the cover off the MK portal, he, Ace and Parson could go rescue the prisoners (They'd have two guns plus Parson could bring a miracle pole and even some spares). That group stepping through the portal would be more than enough to flip the balance of power in TV. Shoot Bill, rescue Caesar, and go Moll hunting. Tell the CC Tower that they can have Vanna back in exchange for the stolen gems.


    Sizemore could definitely break through the seal, but there are traps and alarms set on all of the blocked portals. And, IIRC, GK has only one functioning auto-specialed rifle, the one Bonnie had when she brought the 'pliers back to Spacerock. Sure, the poles are good against shockamancy, but the MK has at least 8 rifles and two tripods in their possession, with only five of the rifles being used by Buck & Co. down in the deep. That still leaves 3 rifles and 2 tripods unaccounted for, and that would be enough to remove Sizemore and Ace from the equation pretty quickly, I'm afraid.

    Without Claud and Ivan there to make more rifles and rig the portal, I think storming the MK is out of the question.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 164
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:24 pm 
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    As opposed to the three-note 'bad joke' trombone or Charlie Brown adult speech, I imagine the "sad trombone sound" being the one from The Price is Right when someone fails.

    And how does Shirley know the word 'overclocking'?

    Bird wrote:
    Shirley and Jed temper Charlie and Stanley's personalities, respectively.


    Hmm. Good observation. Maybe that's part of how Parson breaks war in Erfworld. If all the towers work against their leaders' warring instincts that would certainly go a long way. I'm sure there would be flare-ups but on the whole that alone would be noteworthy. Your comment also makes me wonder how Jillian and her tower are going to get along.

    Bird wrote:
    What struck me even more than Parson tipping his hand was that Jed, a moment after accusing Charlescomm of crimes, brought up Parson's return to Spacerock--which was accomplished via Jed's crimes.


    Yeah, I noticed that too. Ballsy move on Jed's part.

    Arkaim wrote:
    Parson should maybe consider Charlie's trick. Have Sizemore blast away the seal and then carry one of those miracle poles all the way over to TV's portal. And then gun down Bill. Jed can tell him where to aim for when he barges in.


    More interestingly, with the miracle pole's ability to ground shockamancy, what would happen if you touch a portal with one? Aside from interesting thoughts re: the CC portal, GK may not even be able to pass one through their own portal.

    keybounce wrote:
    he basically made several sweet deals with TV, gave them a massive nonaggression treaty, gave them as "good faith" some guns, then turned one of their units, captured the ruler, and undid all of the above and a lot more as the alternative to destruction of the side.

    Who in all of Erf would want to deal with someone who makes deals like that?


    No one makes deals with CC because they want to. Everyone makes deals with CC because they have to, and that's exactly how CC wants it. You don't want CC to exist, you HAVE to have CC or YOU die.

    cu wrote:
    Nowadays most Retconjuration is performed by gits. Sign of the times.


    Stupid git.

    danelsan wrote:
    Huehue is subculture-specific and has certain implications about the person using it.


    Interesting. I only knew it from the laughing lizard gif.

    youngstormlord wrote:
    That's why Shirley says to Charlie he can't join in the conversation with that little dish thing, he doesn't have the baud rate.


    Nah, the problem is he doesn't have a cable descrambler.

    benjamingeiger wrote:
    (And I'm old enough to remember the RetConjuration System.)


    Whose current repository (according to Wikipedia) .... is on git.

    tomii wrote:
    Pretty sure Shirley is from "Laverne and Shirley"


    No. <ninja'd>

    ShaneTheBrain wrote:
    Chuck (hehe) a bowling ball at him right now and who knows how many bags are gonna drop as he struggles not to take it in the gut.


    Except there's one super-easy way to avoid almost all the impact and not drop a single bag, and CC's extremely good at it: spin.

    Yshl wrote:
    Seriously though...why Skyy and not Cheri?


    BECAUSE SHE'S GOT THE GUN.

    OneHugeTuck wrote:
    Parson prompted the three way, by asking if they could have a three way, and thus implementing a three way call, which consists of Jed calling in/connecting because Parson wanted a three way.


    Say it one more time. I don't think we heard you those first four times.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 164
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:46 pm 
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    Regarding spectulation on Charlie's terms: He's leaving TV in a position of weakness with a decapitation strike. All of the units he asked for were high level warlords. Skyy (5) was one level higher than Cheri (4) at the time of demanding she turn to CC. Benjamin was left out because casters don't add a bonus to units under their command, outside of those created through their discipline. With massive treasury penalties it's unlikely Benjamin will be creating any money pits or gold diggers any time soon.

    Ganny wrote:
    So, a quick point (that I hope no one already noticed):

    Has anyone taken a moment to realize that we've dealt with a Temple for far longer in Erfworld, long before Jed was born?

    The Temple of the Thinkamancers.
    That's not the same kind of temple, but it's a good segway to something I've been mulling over the last few updates.

    Charlie's been escalating his actions and Fate has responded by taking Its gloves off and making all of his actions lead to grotesque overreactions in the world. Whatever Charlie does, Fate undoes in a way that mirrors and amplifies his action back at him.

    Charlie wipes out the Temple of the Thinkamancers. This turns Isaac into a near-omnipotent killing machine, through whom Fate dumps autonomous Towers that call themselves "Temples" on at least every side with an active capitol, all of which can communicate uninterruptably without Thinkamancy.

    Charlie tries killing Wanda, who is the mother of the Decrypted and their mistress - the formal meaning of "mistress" as in the feminine of "master". Fate's pineapple kills Tondy, the most motherly figure previously depicted in-comic by a wide berth, and who Charlie was in tears at the idea of even sending into danger. She's the only archon who was introduced with "kids" and her first one was a fertility symbol: a hatching egg. Fate's retaliation? Charlie's Tower turns into a borderline-unkillable mother figure --literally shaped like a fertility symbol-- who he can never be compelled to send into danger, who has even more autonomy than he succeeded in instilling in his archons, and who fixes the wires to his portal moments after he asks her to.

    Shirley is easily the biggest problem Fate dropped on Charlie. Loneliness has been as much of an underlying theme in this comic as free will/autonomy has been, and it'd be hard to say if Charlie or Wanda had it the worst. I've speculated previously that loneliness as the only real person on Erf with free will was the motivation for Charlie trying to push his archons towards autonomy, in addition to being why he swore to never have warlords and why he "broke" then protected Jillian.

    Shirley was delivered with free will and total autonomy. Add to that she's a doting mother figure who appeared while he was still in mourning for the death of Tondy, and the emotional manipulation angle Fate has on Charlie through Shirley is very clear. If you look at the Singamancy around Charlie when he's not hustling, he's a schizophrenic physically-disabled child who needs a lot of encouragement. Shirley isn't all carrot; the stick is Charlie is totally incapacitated and can't use the dish without being in his now-animate Temple who can not only physically move to cut him off from the Dish but --as we just found out-- could turn herself into a deathtrap out of spite. He's effectively been nerfed by putting him in a position where he has an entire spectrum of reasons to behave.

    Beyond all that, Fate's taken Charlie's Dollamancer and Dirtamancer, then dangled some tantalizing-but-dangerous replacements for them in front of him while he's still reeling. Bill couldn't be a worse choice for Archon morale on top of everything he's done in the last few updates for Charlie's treasury. Buck is an upgrade from Ivan in MK stature, but Charlie's orders have caused him to repeatedly break rules in front of his fellow Dirtamancers while leading them into what may turn into a portal shard TPK followed by Decryption.

    To top it all off, the tactical result of Charlie's attempt to screw Fate out of Parson was that Parson was removed from TV right before Charlie got in a position to kill everyone in the tower. Now Parson's in the best defended city GK has, while Charlie is literally inside a tower who thinks he has some 'splaining to do.

    From a gaming perspective the GM is horribly screwing over his/her least favorite player to try to make him quit. Which comes back to Fate being the true antagonist, but I've gone on long enough.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 164
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:48 pm 
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    It's pretty interesting that Charlie has completely given up on his rules about Charlescomm commanders. That was a huge deal when Claud and Ivan wanted to join the side, and it was a big problem among the archons when Parson joined CC. Now Charlie wants not only casters, but warlords?

    Between this broken promise and the irritated state we've already seen Fox Force Two in, something tells me Charlie should be worrying about morale.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 164
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:50 pm 
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    Belrodes wrote:
    It's pretty interesting that Charlie has completely given up on his rules about Charlescomm commanders. That was a huge deal when Claud and Ivan wanted to join the side, and it was a big problem among the archons when Parson joined CC. Now Charlie wants not only casters, but warlords?
    He might have been planning to disband them or sell them to other sides.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 164
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:54 pm 
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    Shen Hibiki wrote:
    How come I see everyone comparing Erfworld to a simulated game and:

    -Saying "then it's not real"? Is just as real once you're inside it...
    -NOT mentioning the Source as "Source Code"? Maybe Jed is scared of altering it to allocate "juice", and that's why he said it was a bad thing~?


    Aha! Jed is probably afraid that if he allocates enough, the system will run out of swap space and in other allocations will fail, and nothing in the game will work properly for a bit. (Go ahead, ask me how I know that running out of swap space will wreck your system. :-)

    NCommander wrote:
    This is late reaction to an earlier panal but this panel made me realize Charlie likely has a plan B for dealing with Shirley as well as an invasion of CC through the portal if it looks like he'll loose.

    Several updates before we saw Eleanor at a remote site and the implication she's been there for a very long time. Now that Charlie knows that the tower can be destroyed (and in turn destroy him), he has one out; he could have a unit of Charlescomm claim a new capital site, and then change the capital from CC to wherever. Assuming Charlie's wheelie is the throne, he could move the capital at any moment.

    That would both move the portal to Bumbleboop, Erf, and allow him to move both the dish and himself away from Shirley. Only downside is he'll loose the shocked connection to the dish (which is bad, but better than being croaked) and he can't get CC back as his capital short of going to the new site and moving it back. I do think it's mentioned that CC has additional capital sites in it's buffer zone.


    How's this for a plan:

    One: Charlie moves the CC capital to another location.
    Two: Charlie abdicates in favor of another person, at that new location.
    Three: Charlie does something to take care of the tower/building around where he is.
    Four: that other person, at the other location, moves the capital back to Charlescomm.
    Five: that other person advocates in favor of Charlie.

    Total cost: two designations of heirs, whatever it takes to play with the building when it is no longer the capital Temple, and trusting the other unit to follow orders.

    There must be some archon in CC somewhere that Charlie can trust with this operation.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 164
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:50 pm 
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    The Unlurked wrote:
    That's not the same kind of temple, but it's a good segway to something I've been mulling over the last few updates.
    Charlie's been escalating his actions and Fate has responded by taking Its gloves off and making all of his actions lead to grotesque overreactions in the world. Whatever Charlie does, Fate undoes in a way that mirrors and amplifies his action back at him...


    You should mull (and post) more often.

    That was a simply brilliant post. Thank you for taking the time to share it!!!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 164
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:50 pm 
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    GreySage wrote:
    CharlesMomm is NOT happy that he's cheating so much...

    I think that's probably her nickname now. Yeah. Yeah that's it now.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 164
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:10 pm 
    Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit This user is a Tool!
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    The Unlurked wrote:
    He might have been planning to disband them or sell them to other sides.

    In the update where he is arguing with Claud and Ivan about turning, he mentions that one of his primary reasons for not keeping Commander-type units around is that they'd be aware of the treasury. Thus, I don't think he's planning to sell them to other sides. They're probably destined for a battlefield death somewhere or other the moment he figures out how to make it look unintentional enough to fool Shirley (especially with Vanna).

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 164
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:14 pm 
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    Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day This user is a Tool!
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    Location: Wales... New South Wales
    Yshl wrote:
    Warlady Viscountess Skyy Appletini:
    Why does Charlie want Skyy and not Cheri (Blondie)? They are literally side-by-side during the majority of this mayhem, the only difference being that Skyy has fired the gun.

    The difference between Skyy and Cheri is 1.

    Skyy(5) is a higher level than Cheri(4).

    This is basic arithmatic. :geek:

    edit: Ninja'd by theUnlurked


    Last edited by Anomynous 167 on Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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