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 Post Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:17 pm 
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fractal wrote:
Spot wrote:
Jeivar wrote:
Hmm. Slately is rather pathetic, and yet has three impressive sons. Funny that.

The mention of a demon has piqued my interest. Just what is a demon in Erfworld. I would have expected it to be just an extraplanar creature, summoned by a castaer and used in combat, since EVERYTHING on Erf has to do with combat. But it seems that demons are something to be loathed, feared and avoided. Perhaps they represent some force that opposes the Titans? Just how does a demon manifest on Erf? And why? What does one do?

Nice doom-n-gloom there. People's darkest hours are indeed in the quiet darkness.

You're reading it too literally. There is no mention of a demon... at least, not in the way you're interpreting it.

Stately is speaking to the beast within himself, (ie: addressing his internal demons).

Actually, Slately refers to the new Ansom as a demon, "that Demon thing shaped like his lost Ansom". That suggests the word is more metaphorical here, to describe Ansom's essential nature, rather than his physical categorization (since by that standard he is either a human warlord, or else some sort of uncroaked).

Whether or not actual Demons exist in Erfworld, we do not know. (We do know that Daemons exist, they are enemies of Marbits and Elves.) It seems less likely that Slately would make such an analogy if Demons do actually exist, though (since Ansom is not actually such a creature).


It seems like a Royalist fundamentalist like Slately would think that decryption replaces people's souls (if erfworlders have souls) with demons. Although, the vastly probable situation is that it's metaphorical.

Also, what is the difference between a demon and a daemon?

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     Post Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:47 pm 
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    Sinrus wrote:
    Anyways, truth may be a monster, but if you keep close to it you discover that it's The Monster at the End of the Book.

    And if nobody gets that reference, I will feel really stupid.


    Could it be ....

    Spoiler: show
    Grover? Hah. You thought it was going to be Satan.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:55 am 
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    Most interesting. It is an great text update, one of my favorites so far, really putting some character to Slately who we have only really seen from others perspectives so far. I believe Don King is fairly accurate in his description - I feel for Slately, even though I see how inflexible he is. He isn't foolish or delusional and he cares for his sons and his kingdom and while very human in his darkest moment he is still fairly dignified about it.. I liked the truth aspect a lot as well.

    Hmmm, and it seems Slately isn't so much green as turnip shaped. He was aware of what Haggar would likely do, but was prepared to accept the risk. It also shows further a big problem is that the other royals just aren't getting it (apart from the RCCII leaders). Interesting view of the Don and Jillian as well. Not a criticisms of their capabilities or abilities, but simply of the fact they aren't shiny royal enough - although he doesn't let that stop him from realizing they might be useful. Shame no mention is made of the rest of the RCCII. I want to know of FoxMUD and Sofa King!

    And yay! Trem is officially classified as clever by his father, as if we didn't already know.

    Also interesting that Jetstone had had the pliers for sometime before trying to use them. Like it was keeping them in a vault or something.

    Welf von Ehrwald wrote:
    Poor Slatley. I guess deep down he already has given up. He already accepted Toolism as the "truth".


    I don't think so. He is confused maybe, he doesn't understand why it is coming to this, but he nowhere gives any acknowledgment to toolism or non-royals. In fact he is still picking on, mentally, two of his closest allies because they aren't royal enough in behavior for his taste.

    And besides, accepting his and Jetstone's end may be nigh doesn't necessarily mean he thinks Toolism is the truth. He thinks it is the[end of everything, which to one totally dedicated to a particular philosophy/religion/political process probably wouldn't translate "they won because they are worthy of victory and their ways superior to us" but rather "If only we had fought a bit harder, or the other royals had behaved properly the light wouldn't be lost to this terrible darkness."

    Spungi wrote:
    I would assume its a bit of a rewind to the night before Ossamer met Wanda on the bridge.


    Agreed.

    Guppy wrote:
    Either it's a rewind, or Slately is just so drunk and confused he no longer realizes Ossomer lost? Or it is set the evening after Ossomer's fall, but before any of Slately's subordinates have reported the news to him.


    I believe rewind. It fits the character to have the dark moment of doubt before, then go out and act like victory is achievable. I don't see Slately as the type who, when getting news like Oss has turned, would tell Jillian and then go get plastered (how very un-royal!). Not like film version Denethor.

    Jeivar wrote:
    The mention of a demon has piqued my interest. Just what is a demon in Erfworld.


    Apparently there are daemon natural allies out there somewhere. Elves and Marbits wont ally with a side that has them. But I don't think we are talking literal demons here.

    Lord Kasavin wrote:
    I don't understand how anyone with a passing familiarity with the comic can type that without having an involuntary muscle spasm which ends their sentence with an emoticon. Stanely's track record makes him not only the original "tool," but the embodiement of the concept. Does he think he's better than everyone else? Yes. Does he put his own petty interests above not only his underlings interests, but their lives? Yes, yes he does.


    I agree, no one out tools The Tool.

    Knight13 wrote:
    Slately threw an army at Stanley, led by his own son, just because he didn't like how Stanley came to power.


    And after Stanley had been running GK so peacefully and non-violently, never giving any side any reason to want to attack him either, apart from non-royal hate...

    fractal wrote:
    Hey, Slately, if you believe that Royals are superior, but making that view consistent with what you observe in the world forces you to categorize all of the Kings and Queens you know as "Royals In Name Only", perhaps you should reconsider your premise.


    I don't know if that is right. Their mandate only says royals are better then non-royals, it doesn't say some royals can't also be better then other royals. That is why people like Stanley and Charlie as such problems for that way of thinking - they are successful non-royals.

    And he doesn't classify all the others as RINO. He seems to have respected Bea.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:29 am 
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    Sinrus wrote:
    A quote from Vinnie: "What'd he [Stanley] do to Jetstone? Croaked a few field units?... It's the royalty thing isn't it?... You don't like how he came to power."


    I always read it as - yes Stanley had brought it on himself (it wasn't just because he was non-royal) but the zealousness of Jetstone in the war, and the fact they decided to lead it with their heir and chief warlord, with arkentool, was in large part due to Stanley's non-royalty.

    So Vinnie wasn't "surprised" that they were going after Stanley, he was ticking people off. It was the degree of effort Jetstone were putting in to fighting someone who hadn't done much to them at that point (a few field units lost) that didn't make sense, unless Stanley's non-royal background was also a driving factor for Jetstone.

    Of course that Ansom was so unwillingly to admit that is interesting.

    the_tick_rules wrote:
    Who ever saidf the french revolution was good? Everybody wound up loosing in that.


    Indeed, it was one of those -"roads to hell, good intentions" kind of things. It set the stage for something better, but the thing itself hurt good and bad alike.

    Rogerborg wrote:
    While I accept that most posters here are True Believers, some of us less... engaged... readers may be getting a bit bored with this meandering voyage between comics and text.

    It breaks immersion and the narrative drive. How about you skip the jaw jaw and get with the draw draw?


    I don't think it does, and it was explained a little while back that one comic a week was all that was achievable at this time. The text updates are good filler because they still deliver good, useful plot and setting information and characterization.

    Moik wrote:
    Not to be down on artists, but I don't think a comic could have evoked the same level of emotion and drama as this text update. I actually want more text updates... (Not a replacement of comic updates, just more text updates per week)


    Especially since so much of it was taking place in Slately's head.

    fjolnir wrote:
    I do like the fact that the text updates are showing the various sides preparing or dealing with GK, we have transylvito watching the big game, we have haggar just finding out about ossomer, we have the hinge of the whole thing tipping back and forth with Jillian Zammussels, queen of Faq, all good. I'm slightly surprised we haven't seen a Charlescomm update that isn't through interaction with Jillian or parson...


    And don't forget Sylvia Lazarus (not long after I said if we had text updates in book one we probably would have got one for Scarlet). I don't think we'll get a Charlescomm one, unless it was from an Archon, just because of how little is known about Charlie or how he thinks.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 2:09 am 
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    I hate text updates. I liked klogs, they filled a role in the first book. These things are superfluous, and mostly boring. I'm glad they are not included in the comic archive, and that until now the comic flows well without these things.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 2:21 am 
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    teratorn wrote:
    I hate text updates. I liked klogs, they filled a role in the first book. These things are superfluous, and mostly boring. I'm glad they are not included in the comic archive, and that until now the comic flows well without these things.


    0/10.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:26 am 
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    teratorn wrote:
    I hate text updates. I liked klogs, they filled a role in the first book. These things are superfluous, and mostly boring. I'm glad they are not included in the comic archive, and that until now the comic flows well without these things.


    Wow, just... wow. And in response to one of the most powerful text updates ever posted. I guess you'd prefer getting nothing in between comics instead. Troll, starve plz k thx.

    Reading this reminded me of the story of Damocles, in which a commoner learns that the king's throne sits beneath a sword aimed at his head. The obvious interpretation was for barbarians or revolution to play the role of the sword, but truth is an interesting casting choice also.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:06 am 
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    Dunno if it's been mentioned yet, but on the earlier "Demon" point; in book one where wanda was injured; Ansom referred to her as "Demoness".

    Perhaps croakamancy is considered taboo in most circles... (I mean you would've thought so, right?) ... and it's justified religiously by being strongly linked to demons and whatnot. - Perhaps it's use considered to be "Tarnishing the soul" of the caster or somesuch. People don't like to think of people's dead bodies as tools; with just a purpose. They find it so hard to forget the person.

    It's a bit like cannibalism in the real world, in a way. "People have wasted handy protein ever since they started worrying about who lived in it", anyone? ;)

    Anywho; it seems a lot less likely (to me at least) that it's referring to a natural ally "Daemon"; rather than a spiritual one.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:48 am 
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    Lord Kasavin wrote:
    Hobgobwin wrote:
    Wow, Slately's even more of a tool than Stanley.


    I don't understand how anyone with a passing familiarity with the comic can type that without having an involuntary muscle spasm which ends their sentence with an emoticon. Stanely's track record makes him not only the original "tool," but the embodiement of the concept. Does he think he's better than everyone else? Yes. Does he put his own petty interests above not only his underlings interests, but their lives? Yes, yes he does.

    Meanwhile, we learn more about Slately. Not his finest moment, but he is staring down a much more powerful army and his only allies are a large force expected to betray him when convient and Jillian... Jillian might be a fearsome fighter, but her table manners leave much to be desired. And Slately is weak-dar is on to something, Jillian herself doesn't know if she actually wants to side with Jetstone or let Wanda claim her. A real royal wouldn't be thinking that, they'd see the threat, put personal grudges aside and do what must be done.


    B-but I like Stanley. :oops:

    gaiaswill wrote:
    Troll, starve plz k thx.


    Apparently troll means "anyone who I disagree with" now.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:31 am 
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    Hobgobwin wrote:
    Apparently troll means "anyone who I disagree with" now.


    Nah, Teratorn's been a nattering troll for a long time, even before the forums moved to erfworld.com.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:04 pm 
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    Angband wrote:
    Nah, Teratorn's been a nattering troll for a long time, even before the forums moved to erfworld.com.

    People take personal opinions way too... well personally. Someone attacking a work of art does not deserve to be insulted.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:24 pm 
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    People who tear up rudely when they would do better to just go away are not at fault for being rude?

    I like the text updates. The texts are not superfluous. These short chapters add plenty of depth.

    Some people seem to get lost in anything deep.

    These people should realize where the problem that bothers them is owned, instead of showing that they are proud to be shallow, which they need to realize is a major double fail.

    That only a page of reading could be too much for any persons attention span gives me a major case of the holy booping cows with goose bumps.

    I am sorry about taking the troll bait.

    I had something relevant that would have made a better post, but I just lost it.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:51 pm 
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    Llord_Droll wrote:
    People who tear up rudely when they would do better to just go away are not at fault for being rude?

    That depends. Do you believe saying something like Twilight/Aragon/Paris Hilton sucks is rude? If not, then I see no reason why saying one dislikes another form of entertainment is rude. If you do believe that people should hold in all their negative criticisms, then I believe we will just have to agree to disagree.
    Llord_Droll wrote:
    I like the text updates. The texts are not superfluous. These short chapters add plenty of depth.

    Some people seem to get lost in anything deep.

    I like some of the text updates, but learning that a leader feels doubt during moments of extreme stress is more like a necessary characterization instead of anything "deep." Not saying I hate it, but I do feel that bit of data was somewhat obvious. Though it was presented in an manner not entirely uninteresting. But that's besides the point.

    EDIT: Still, one must admit, learning that Slately has to play politics with his court was a bit unexpected.


    Last edited by warriortribble on Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:52 pm 
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    As an overfed long-haired leaping gnome, I must comment on the "Hall of the Mountain King" King Slately mentioned - since I haven't seen anyone else bring up this point.....

    Spill the Wine ..and take that pearl....

    am I going crazy or is this just a dream?

    Flyer


    Eric Burdon and WAR "Spill the Wine"

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 2:05 pm 
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    The value of truth and the self deceptive subjective perception of truth is pretty deep.

    IRL a lot of evil is done in the name of false truth. It is possibly the key failing of mankind.

    The tree of knowledge is a bibilical starting point for failure, probably because allowing knowledge also allowed false knowledge.

    The nasty monster is not supposed to be nasty or a monster.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 2:23 pm 
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    I like the text pages; I think it's a pretty innovative compromise / approach to both fanservice and quality production. They give you a series of differing perspectives which really enhances the main plotlines. And they let Rob tapdance on top of everyone's pointy li'l heads . . .

    Actually, I might suggest that something similar could be added to the first book without much difficulty, which would give Rob the opportunity to go into a LOT more (low cost, dollarwise - it's just writing) detailed narrative. There are certainly enough fan artists about to do the filler art on those pages, you betcha!. It's things like this that the critics either love or hate, but it does generate reviews . . .

    As for criticism, look at it like this - we're all guests in Rob's room, he's providing the decor and the entertainment, and unless you're a Tool, it's not costing you anything. It ill behoove anyone to gripe about what is essentially a free gift. Don't like it? Right click the icon, click >delete<, click >OK< and that's it. It's too bad if anyone finds these updates boring, but I enjoy them greatly, both the text and accompanying art. Both are well done, and the plot is plotting along apace. Jeeze, some people would bitch if you flogged them with a new whip . . .

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 2:29 pm 
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    Y'know with Slately talking about Don king, Jillian, and Dickie it makes me wonder why there was no mention of the other royal sides
    What of Foxmud, Hobbittm, and SofaKing?
    What are their rulers like? are they just as "bad" as Dickie, and Jillian? are they also Royals in Name Only.

    And i do have to ask why they are not also part of this upcoming fight if they too are part of the RCCII
    On the one hand we could question if they have the troops to spare as two of them did not give as many troops to the last RCC, and Sofaking may have suffered heavy losses... though it could be that they are preparing for a contingency should this battle fail... or perhaps their troops are meant to work towards anykind of unexpected maneuvers from GK... hard to say...

    I actually do kinda wonder though why Don king isn't sending more to this fight... sure he's the one behind Jillian's power, but i would have still imagined he might send in ceaser with some skanks and bats to help her... sure Tv has suffered greatly recently, but Don king does seem to betting on everything with this fight; saying it's the end of the world if GK wins.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 2:32 pm 
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    I want to know what happens when a ruler gets decrypted. The problem is, he is subordinate to Wanda. Up till now Wanda hasn't decrypted anything higher ranking than herself. Does she become her own side when a ruler is decrypted? Does the decrypted ruler just become an independent unit? What about their treasury, etc.? These could potentially make Wanda the next Jetstone... and Gobwin Knob the next target...

    macintristan

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 2:36 pm 
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    Llord_Droll wrote:
    The value of truth and the self deceptive subjective perception of truth is pretty deep.
    There is truth, but our biases color how we interpret the truth. Am I interpreting this quote correctly?
    Llord_Droll wrote:
    IRL a lot of evil is done in the name of false truth. It is possibly the key failing of mankind.

    The tree of knowledge is a bibilical starting point for failure, probably because allowing knowledge also allowed false knowledge.

    The nasty monster is not supposed to be nasty or a monster.
    At the risk of sounding like a jerk, I think you're getting meaning from the text that simply isn't there. I mean sure, one could extrapolate all that from the text, but this could be done with virtually anything that sounds vaguely significant. Still, I could be mistaken, so feel free to point out any errors.
    Llord_Droll wrote:
    The nasty monster is not supposed to be nasty or a monster.
    I do not know what this sentence is referring to.


    Last edited by warriortribble on Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 2:42 pm 
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    It occurs to me, upon rereading this, that this might be the first suggestion we have of something that could be very interesting: The idea that the afterlife in Erfworld is tiered, based on who you are and what you do.

    From what we know for certain, there have only been two really concrete mentions of what Erfworlders believe lies beyond croaking; Vinny mentioned the City of Heroes, and more recently, Slately mentioned the Hall of the Mountain King. And it struck me as very odd at first that Slately would mention something other than the City of Heroes, given that in this world, ones prestige, sense of worth, identity, and so forth are all tied to how effective a warrior they are. It seems superfluous, unless one believes that the nature of the afterlife is tiered, based on what you were when you died: Ruler or Warrior.

    From what we've seen, it seems theoretically (And it is only a theory) possible that Warriors who do their duty admirably and awesomely, and then die are admitted to the City of Heroes, which is perhaps a little like Valhalla. Vinny seemed certain that he belonged there after Croaking several Dwagons in one turn, and Wrigley seemed certain he was NOT deserving of admittance because of the ignominious and low manner in which he was about to meet his death, and the manner in which he lived his life.

    As for the Hall of the Mountain King? It turns out that this too (As with so many things in Erfworld) seems to have a parallel in our world:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_in_the_mountain

    Looking at the list in the Wikipedia article, you notice that the people on it mostly seem to be Kings or Leaders of some sort who died after a glorious or noteworthy reign. Very few of the names on that list (I think) died poorly, with an opposing army about to siege and destroy their city. Perhaps this indicates that in order for a King to be judged worthy to go below to the Hall of the King in Erfworld, that he must have ended his reign well, as opposed to being defeated?
    ...
    ...
    Of course, this is all theory and conjecture, but nevertheless, I think it is interesting.

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