Forum    Members    Search    FAQ

Board index » Erfworld Things » Reactions




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 451 posts ] 
 
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 74
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:35 pm 
Has collected at least one unit Here for the 10th Anniversary
Offline
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:55 pm
Posts: 562
greycat wrote:
JadedDragoon wrote:
I'm not sure the rifles are insta-croak either...


Insta-croak was mentioned at some point, but not in detail. I bet there's just a chance of insta-croak, much lower than 100%. Maybe it needs a critical hit as a prereq, or maybe not. Who knows.

Quote:
but any argument that ends with "because it didn't work on Parson" is a flawed argument.


Agreed.

Insta-croak was mentioned by Jojo, I'm not sure we can consider that a reliable source either. He was explicitly trying to rouse rabble and incite panic to cause a riot, at the time. While they may or may not in fact have the ability to insta-croak things, I'd argue we have no reliable evidence in either direction.

Also, agree re:"it didn't work on Parson."

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 74
     Post Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:27 pm 
    User avatar
    This user is a Tool! This user has been published! Armored Dwagon Monthly Winner Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter Won Mine4erf for the Gobwins Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day
    Offline
    Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:41 pm
    Posts: 124
    Magic in general is still more powerful than Rifles. Charlie by all accounts lost that fight, and the only reason Parson also lost is because of Magic users and their base shockamancy.

    Most of that has to do with tactics and strategy though. Which Charlie didn't have time to adequately prepare for the situation. The Rifles can be a game changer if you set them up in optimal positions. But in the MK, where everyone can sling an accurate damaging blast, the rifles are just an additive measure.

    _________________
    "but I have to wonder how much anyone here really knows about their own world. What he told me sounds like a lot of crap about the four basic elements that people believed for centuries just because Aristotle said it." - Parson

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 74
     Post Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:35 pm 
    User avatar
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Year of the Dwagon Supporter This user has been published! Armored Dwagon Monthly Winner Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit This user got funny with a rodent Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter This user is a Tool! Mined 4 Erf Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day Won Mine4erf for the Gobwins Spades Suit Pip Erfmover Supporter
    Offline
    Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 3:45 am
    Posts: 1041
    Guns definitely are not 100% insta-croak, per Lilith being shot (but confirmed to have survived) below.

    http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/130

    _________________
    Here's my "Charlie as Hitler" Downfall video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-EA8xQOf_s

    When you're a bat, you're a bat all the way. From your first starting stat, 'til the turn you decay.

  • Tipped by 2 people!
  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 74
     Post Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:39 pm 
    E is for Erfworld Supporter This user was a Tool before it was cool Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit This user is a Tool! Diamonds Suit Pip
    Offline
    Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:15 pm
    Posts: 1461
    We've been carnied by jojo. We weren't even in the midst of the confusion, but he still got us to believe it.

    _________________
    For those in the USA: Have you wondered what you would do during in the civil rights movement, or in the 1930s?

    Well, what did you do yesterday? Now you know.

    Let's all be the kind of people we wish everyone had been then. Show up. Call. Resist.

  • Tipped by 3 people!
  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 74
     Post Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:41 pm 
    Has collected at least one unit Here for the 10th Anniversary
    Offline
    Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:55 pm
    Posts: 562
    Ansan Gotti wrote:
    Guns definitely are not 100% insta-croak, per Lilith being shot (but confirmed to have survived) below.

    http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/130

    I forgot about that, and it was literally the page after the one I used for my example. Touche sir, have a Schmucker.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 74
     Post Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:14 pm 
    Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
    Offline
    Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:56 am
    Posts: 885
    Noobamancer wrote:
    The problem with exploding arrows (and many other such items) is that they take 100 schmuckers of juice and place it in the hands of a 10 schmuckers infantryman. You load up a few archers with fancy stuff, but the entire stack can still be taken out by a single flyer. And large number of infantrymen can be hard to deploy where you need them to be.

    Juice has no definitive Shmucker value. This is because you can have the Dollamancer make golems or grenades or charge up your tower. Units don't cost anything to pop, but do cost something to upkeep. The cost is an opportunity cost, not Shmucker one. You have a limited number of casters who can do a limited number of things at a given time. If you have making grenades, you give up golem production. If you have do either of these things, he can't make scrolls or charge up your tower. And so on.

    In other words, you have to choose the most valuable thing based on changing strategic needs. It really heavily depends on your own economy and the kind of war you need to be fighting.

    Sir Dr D wrote:
    The real advantage from guns comes from their suppression fire. Yes in the magic king battle it seemed like there was just as much casters croaked from arrows as guns. But the guns would have forced all casters to duck behind the magic portals for protection, and take pot quick pot shots. If all that they were facing was lower rate of fire weapons the casters could have cast more powerfull or more aimed spells.

    Okay, but here is the thing. Archons are expensive to upkeep. Archers are not. You can easily outnumber Archons with archers and mounted Dwagons are a comparably powerful airforce.

    The real problem becomes whether you can deploy enough enhanced archers to create a problem for a force of Archons.

    Jetstone has a Dittomancer who quadrupled archer volleys and this proved to be devastatingly effective against GK's air forces.

    Ansan Gotti wrote:
    Guns definitely are not 100% insta-croak, per Lilith being shot (but confirmed to have survived) below.

    http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/130


    Archons don't wear armor. So it's sort of irrelevant.
    Charlie could make armor, I'm sure, but that's not really the problem. Because then we're just talking an arms' race not which is not really practical for addressing short-term needs.

  • Tipped by 2 people!
  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 74
     Post Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:21 pm 
    User avatar
    Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit This user has been published! Mined 4 Erf
    Offline
    Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2015 2:25 am
    Posts: 1088
    AOL: NOT FOR HONOR
    Location: BUT FOR YOOOU
    DVL wrote:
    Jetstone has a Dittomancer who quadrupled archer volleys and this proved to be devastatingly effective against GK's air forces.

    Devastating? Eh, we only saw it dust one archon and incapacitate Jack. Seemed to turn out pretty well for GK.

    And the guns are definitely more effective than the Jetstone Scepter or Ossomer's Bracer. Ossomer nailed Ansom in the chest with his at point blank range and it didn't seem to do much more than knock the wind out of him.

    _________________
    If I've said something stupid, it's probably stupid on purpose. Probably...

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 74
     Post Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:27 pm 
    Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
    Offline
    Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:56 am
    Posts: 885
    Ozamataz Buckshank wrote:
    DVL wrote:
    Jetstone has a Dittomancer who quadrupled archer volleys and this proved to be devastatingly effective against GK's air forces.

    Devastating? Eh, we only saw it dust one archon and incapacitate Jack. Seemed to turn out pretty well for GK.

    Both rather high-value targets in veil. It forced them to ground. I'm not convinced that three or four rifles held by Archons or a turret emplacement would've fared better. Those things substitute for manpower, but in Erf, manpower is easy to come by.
    And you can still do things like put warlords like Artemis on them.

    But if you want a better example, the Jack-Maggie-Marie linkup messed up flying veiled targets pretty badly.

    EDIT:
    I hasten to add that Slately was vaporizing Archons pretty easily with the scepter.
    http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+2/165


    Last edited by DVL on Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.
  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 74
     Post Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:28 pm 
    Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
    Offline
    Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:56 am
    Posts: 885
    duplicate

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 74
     Post Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:09 pm 
    User avatar
    This user posted the comment of the month Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Mined 4 Erf This user got funny with a rodent This user is a Tool! Shiny Red Star Won Mine4erf for the Gobwins For when you need it most Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day Clubs Suit Pip IRC Quote of the Moment Erfmover Supporter
    Offline
    Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:33 am
    Posts: 1364
    You want to know why I think guns are a big deal? This is why. The whole page. The picture. The exchange between Parson and Charley. Charley's veiled threat. The fact that this is the last page of Book 2.

    None of that proves anything in-universe, of course, but the moment you look at it from the perspective of a writer... well... that's a different story. Clearly Rob intends this to be a big reveal and there's clearly an implied connection between Charley's veiled threat and what is shown in the picture. The whole composition screams, "this is where the readers are supposed to go 'oh boop!'" Not to mention the final page of Book 2 is some really prominent and ominous placement. This means, in all likelihood, that Rob intends guns to be a big deal. Thus, unless I see something that conclusively shows they aren't... I'm going to assume they are.

    I admit meta-analysis is proof of nothing by itself. After all authors can miss their mark. But Rob has been pretty reliable about not making a big deal out of something that isn't a big deal. So if he goes out of his way to make the reveal of guns in the very last image of Book 2 look like a big deal... I trust that.

    _________________
    Occam's razor for dummies.

    Fear the would-be hero. For against the pangs of conscience, there is no more effective anesthesia than a righteous cause. And no one sees themselves as the villain, especially the villain.

  • Tipped by 1 person!
  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 74
     Post Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:22 pm 
    Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
    Offline
    Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:56 am
    Posts: 885
    He could've had a grand armada of flying ships being sailed by Archons at the end of that and the effect would've been the same.

    Guns are easier to scan by Stupidworld Signamancy standards.

  • Tipped by 1 person!
  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 74
     Post Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:25 pm 
    User avatar
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Year of the Dwagon Supporter This user has been published! Armored Dwagon Monthly Winner Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit This user got funny with a rodent Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter This user is a Tool! Mined 4 Erf Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day Won Mine4erf for the Gobwins Spades Suit Pip Erfmover Supporter
    Offline
    Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 3:45 am
    Posts: 1041
    DVL wrote:
    Ansan Gotti wrote:
    Guns definitely are not 100% insta-croak, per Lilith being shot (but confirmed to have survived) below.

    http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/130


    Archons don't wear armor. So it's sort of irrelevant.
    Charlie could make armor, I'm sure, but that's not really the problem. Because then we're just talking an arms' race not which is not really practical for addressing short-term needs.


    Sorry, not sure I understand your point? I was merely demonstrating that guns do not 100% insta-croak. What's this about armor? Thanks.

    _________________
    Here's my "Charlie as Hitler" Downfall video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-EA8xQOf_s

    When you're a bat, you're a bat all the way. From your first starting stat, 'til the turn you decay.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 74
     Post Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:26 pm 
    User avatar
    This user posted the comment of the month Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Mined 4 Erf This user got funny with a rodent This user is a Tool! Shiny Red Star Won Mine4erf for the Gobwins For when you need it most Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day Clubs Suit Pip IRC Quote of the Moment Erfmover Supporter
    Offline
    Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:33 am
    Posts: 1364
    DVL wrote:
    He could've had a grand armada of flying ships being sailed by Archons at the end of that and the effect would've been the same.

    Guns are easier to scan by Stupidworld Signamancy standards.


    Yeah... the effect would have been that the grand armada of flying ships was a big deal. :-/

    That's kinda my point. Whatever is in that picture at the bottom is a big deal. And what's in that picture at the bottom is the reveal of guns in Erfworld. Ergo guns are a big deal... or at least that's the message Rob is trying to send.

    _________________
    Occam's razor for dummies.

    Fear the would-be hero. For against the pangs of conscience, there is no more effective anesthesia than a righteous cause. And no one sees themselves as the villain, especially the villain.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 74
     Post Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:07 pm 
    User avatar
    Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit This user has been published!
    Offline
    Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2010 10:49 pm
    Posts: 242
    JadedDragoon wrote:
    DVL wrote:
    He could've had a grand armada of flying ships being sailed by Archons at the end of that and the effect would've been the same.

    Guns are easier to scan by Stupidworld Signamancy standards.


    Yeah... the effect would have been that the grand armada of flying ships was a big deal. :-/

    That's kinda my point. Whatever is in that picture at the bottom is a big deal. And what's in that picture at the bottom is the reveal of guns in Erfworld. Ergo guns are a big deal... or at least that's the message Rob is trying to send.


    That's not really a reason, though. If guns are a big deal, there must be a reason for that within the story. And the story needs to tell us what that reason is at some point or it is just an informed quality that readers will start to doubt.

    _________________
    I did a thing: http://www.erfworld.com/blog/view/55086 ... redth-king

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 74
     Post Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:45 pm 
    Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
    Offline
    Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:36 am
    Posts: 57
    Ansan Gotti wrote:
    Guns definitely are not 100% insta-croak, per Lilith being shot (but confirmed to have survived) below.

    http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/130


    Even earlier, here we see Parson, Lilith, and multiple decrypted infantry shot, but in both it and the next page, only 1 of the decrypted infantry appears to have been dusted.
    Given the GK treasury being set from 0 to 40 mil, at 5 mil per hit, GK units were hit 8 times.
    Lilith appears to have been hit twice, and the two surviving decrypted look to have been hit once each. That'd mean it took 4 shots to kill a decrypted stabber. Parson, currently a CC unit, appears to have survived another 4 shots.
    Three free casters appear to have croaked from single shots. Assuming Crits insta-kill, that'd imply a crit rate of about 4(kills)/15(shots), or 1/5 if the stabber was killed without crits.
    20% crit rate seems incredible for a rapid fire ranged weapon, but it is far from insta-kill.

  • Tipped by 1 person!
  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 74
     Post Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:16 pm 
    This user was a Tool before it was cool This user posted the comment of the month
    Offline
    Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:42 am
    Posts: 57
    Keep in mind how high GK's bonuses must have been with Parson, Wanda, Antium, Artemis, a rhyme-o-mancer and the arkenpliers stacked up in various ways. Rifles likely decimate enemy forces in more typical engagements far more effectively.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 74
     Post Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:47 pm 
    User avatar
    Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit This user got funny with a rodent Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter Arkenhammer Supporter
    Offline
    Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 2:44 pm
    Posts: 556
    Black wrote:
    Keep in mind how high GK's bonuses must have been with Parson, Wanda, Antium, Artemis, a rhyme-o-mancer and the arkenpliers stacked up in various ways. Rifles likely decimate enemy forces in more typical engagements far more effectively.

    "Show us where to Dance" as Wanda said. GK likely got a bonus to their Defense stat from the Dance Fighting and either another bonus or a boost to the already existing Dance Fighting bonus from the Trilinked casters. That's on top of double stacking Wanda's bonus for every Decrypted with Parson and Downer's Leadership bonuses for their Stacks. Plus Dance Fighting led by a Rhyme-o-Mancer might get an extra Leadership bonus the same way Uncroaked/Decrypted get Leadership from Croakamancers or Dolls/Cloth Golems/Action Figures/etc get Leadership from Dollamancers, Rock/Earth/etc Golems get it from Dirtamancers, etc.

    It would certainly help distinguish Rhyme-o-Mancers from just regular units with the Dance Fighting Special, the same way Thinkamancers are far more advanced than the Natural Thinkamancy of Commander units.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 74
     Post Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:17 pm 
    Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
    Offline
    Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:36 am
    Posts: 57
    Black wrote:
    Keep in mind how high GK's bonuses must have been with Parson, Wanda, Antium, Artemis, a rhyme-o-mancer and the arkenpliers stacked up in various ways. Rifles likely decimate enemy forces in more typical engagements far more effectively.

    Point I'm referencing is before the messy MK fight. Because of Parson turning, GK lacked a chief warlord at that point. Antium, given he shows up later on the other side of the GK portal, isn't present. The rhymer hasn't been decrypted yet. Even worse, wanda was veiled rather than stacked with the decrypted.
    They do have bonuses from Wanda in hex leading decrypted and Artemis' leadership. This is probably in the bonus range you'd expect for typical well-led infantry(good local leadership and good chief warlord).

    It would explain the unled free casters dying super quickly without stacking or any leadership bonuses.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 74
     Post Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:28 pm 
    User avatar
    This user got funny with a rodent Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
    Offline
    Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 10:47 am
    Posts: 183
    Black wrote:
    Keep in mind how high GK's bonuses must have been... ...a rhyme-o-mancer


    Honestly, I don't see how much of a difference a rhyme-o-mancer makes. After all, you can dance if you want to; you can leave your friends behind.

    All that the rhyme-o-mancer lets you do is dance safely with your friends. As long as you're a croakamancer and your friends are uncroaked (or decrypted), you can dance-fight right along with your friends without needing a rhyme-o-mancer at all.

    'Sides which, dance-fighting is going to be kind of old news once the Juggle Elves become inspired by Stanley's titanic music and start moshing with their miracle poles. That's going to become the new thing. I get the feeling that having a rhyme-o-mancer might actually be something of a hinderance in such a situation.

    Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to stop typing in order to devote my full attention to imagining Wanda leading her legions of the damned against Charlie's forces to Accept's Princess of the Dawn.

    _________________
    My Erfworld Side

    My Hamstards

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 74
     Post Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:56 pm 
    User avatar
    Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day This user is a Tool!
    Offline
    Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:35 am
    Posts: 2586
    Location: Wales... New South Wales
    jojolagger wrote:
    Ansan Gotti wrote:
    Guns definitely are not 100% insta-croak, per Lilith being shot (but confirmed to have survived) below.

    http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/130


    Even earlier, here we see Parson, Lilith, and multiple decrypted infantry shot, but in both it and the next page, only 1 of the decrypted infantry appears to have been dusted.
    Given the GK treasury being set from 0 to 40 mil, at 5 mil per hit, GK units were hit 8 times.
    Lilith appears to have been hit twice, and the two surviving decrypted look to have been hit once each. That'd mean it took 4 shots to kill a decrypted stabber. Parson, currently a CC unit, appears to have survived another 4 shots.
    Three free casters appear to have croaked from single shots. Assuming Crits insta-kill, that'd imply a crit rate of about 4(kills)/15(shots), or 1/5 if the stabber was killed without crits.
    20% crit rate seems incredible for a rapid fire ranged weapon, but it is far from insta-kill.

    I've been saying this for a while now. "Insta-croak" does not mean 1-hit kill. It means that the projectile travels so fast that it's target doesn't have time to make a dodge-roll. It deals damage, and thus croaks, instantly. The croaking happens the instant the munitions are fired.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
    Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
     
    Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 451 posts ] 

    Board index » Erfworld Things » Reactions


    Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: David and 19 guests

     
     

     
    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot post attachments in this forum

    Search for:
    Jump to: