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 Post Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:23 pm 
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Damage has reached the cap... Hmmm

Would the stack bonus and Leadership bonus help at this point?

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     Post Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:46 pm 
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    Absolutely. Just because you reach a damage cap doesn't mean that you can't do more. Jillian wouldn't be able to 1 shot a dwagon with just a piddly 8 damage cap, after all.

    Sure, the amount of normal damage remains static, but crit rules become king. The higher your combat stat, the better chance for a crit. If combat +1d10 is 10+ over the enemy's number, make a crit or die roll. Nat 1 means death (critted). Unarmoured units have to roll with a -5.

    If you get +15 over the opponent then he has to roll over a 6. If you roll 20+, he has to roll over a 10. At this point, you have hit the absolute limit of what you can do in terms of damage. Luck always has to be a factor to crit an enemy unit. I dislike damage rolls but crits are integral to the story, so in they go.

    Edit: Crits are listed as rolling high and be critted, but I've changed that to rolling low. From now on, high rolls should always be considered the better result.

    Another thing to note. Combat values fluctuate. Like when outnumbered, so having a a few extra points in combat means that damage won't necessarily drop when combat does.

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     Post Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:57 pm 
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    Then let the Hydwas be blow gun flying menaces:
    - rank 2 medium ranged medium sized light flying infantry +hp
    1. Double Damage
    2. Dance Fighting
    3. Weapon/armour
    4. Stat Increased (Combat) 50%
    5. Rapid Shot

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     Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:05 pm 
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    Hm :)

    How will Rapid Shot work out with a small number of 4 screening units ?
    Each of the 3 Hydwas, being outnumbered can fire on two units, to a total of 6; and their special prevents them from targeting same units.

    Will 4 screeners and 2 archers be hit,
    or will 4 screeners be hit, and 2 screeners jump in front of archers and be hit a second time?

    We shall see :D

    EDIT: you haven't updated the special in the wiki https://rpg.erfworld.com/Toma_RPG:_Spec ... 1_Specials

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     Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:17 pm 
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    Quote:
    Rapid Shot: <Short/Medium range units only.> Can attack 2 seperate targets when not taking other actions. May not attack the same target twice. Damage cap 1/2 normal when using the special.


    You mean Rapid shots? That's updated. Two seperate targets when not talking other actions
    EDIT: I noticed it wasn't updated on my Advanced infantry section though, so maybe you looked at that?

    Screens don't stop you from targeting a unit, at least not if you are ranged/flier, they just block the blow, if they make their roll. All blows in a round are considered simultaneous, so, yes, a screener can be directly killed by a blow, and then block a blow. Attacks can stop a screen from working though. If a unit is attacked by melee, or attacked twice by ranged unit, he can't screen anymore, or maybe attacked twice period. Hmm. Now I'm feeling unsure again.

    Still, how Rapid Shot works is the first thing to decide, since this is the first time I have used it in combat.

    Originally, my idea for rapid fire was if being attacked, you can't use rapid shot. I had to choose how that applied here. I could say if all the units are being fired on, you can't use it, but I don't like that. So I changed it to not taking other actions. So the hydwas will fire at six targets total.

    Bandaid picks targets first, then the rest are decided by random selection. Which is basically you and him taking turns to decide the remaining targets. Alternatively, I can roll randomly and do the pairings myself. That would be faster.

    EDIT: A screening unit can block twice. He may block up to two attacks against himself, the screened target, or one each. A unit may not screen and attack. If a screening unit starts to attack, then he drops the screen.

    Okay, that sounds about right. There are still size modifiers that should take place, a unit that is X sizes larger probably can screen against more units, and such.

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    Last edited by TomaO2 on Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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     Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:38 pm 
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    Do long range units take 1 round to reload between shots?

    Does starting Dance Fighting take a whole combat round, not even movement allowed?

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     Post Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:28 pm 
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    Do long range units take 1 round to reload between shots?

    They do, every single one of them, even the heavy long range units (that means they take TWO round in between every shot).... UNLESS they have the rapid reload special.

    Incidentally, the standard longbowmen unit has the rapid reload special.

    Does starting Dance Fighting take a whole combat round, not even movement allowed?

    Yes. You can't start a dance fight without getting yourself into the proper mood. You need prep time. Not much, but some. Just like in the comic. Dancefighting is a strong move, I don't feel it's wrong to take it. If it had activated, you would have had +2 combat, and the penalty for being outnumbered by 4 would have dropped to just -1cbt/def, instead of -2cbt/def. That said, it's combining two specials for one, so there are restrictions on its use. You may want to consider getting the scout special when the battle is done. As you can see, you get a LOT more combat options with the special.

    Getting an ideal build is hard, expecially when you are just learning the game, and it would be aggravating to be stuck with something you don't like. That said, mistakes and surprises also help me design a better game so I don't want to just tell everyone when I think they are screwing up.

    To compromise, you are allowed to make 2 changes to one unit after every battle in order to optimize your build (can't change size or rank).

    It's not all bad though. Bandaid made a mistake in his last move. He failed to notice that the reason the Hydwas didn't fire last round is because unled basic infantry units need to get into their optimal range, which is 60 feet. With both sides moving towards each other again next round, they will be able to attack. If he had stopped moving then they would have ended up just shy of that mark.

    Furthermore, I've come to a decision about the initiative round which will be favorable to you, the player that won initiative. You haven't lost yet. We'll see how it pans out.

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     Post Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:39 am 
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    What benefits does an archery only stack has?

    EDIT: "A warlord can only create X stacks"
    Can he give orders to only X stacks? Or more?
    Do unlead units auto stack to 8 units?

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     Post Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:17 pm 
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    I think the last battle has shown stacking as too strong. For the purposes of this game, I'm lowering the bonus to 4 for now. We'll see how that works.

    Original stack progression: 0(1-stack),1,2,3,4,5,6,7 (8-stack)
    New stack progression: 0(1-stack),1,1,2,2,3,3,4 (8-stack)

    In terms of the normal rules, I want stacks to remain high value, because I believe that this is what makes warlords so strong. I also think it will prove to be more balanced, once mass battle rules are implemented and playtesting of 500 unit armies can be allowed.

    That said, I feel focusing too much on warlords may lead to loss of creativity in stack composition, which is not my intent. Yea, archers have to be a hard counter for fliers, but I felt you were beaten a little too easily.

    Also, I've decided to allow players to choose a flying warlord if you want, but this must be declared before the battle starts. If you want to keep warlord a secret, choose a ground one, but flying warlords are rare, and famous, enough that spies will find out that you are bringing it to the fight.

    I think I'll also make this a rule for warlords that reach level 3.

    WurmD wrote:
    What benefits does an archery only stack has?


    They can fire at range. Archers fire 60 feet with no penalty, and can fire an additional 60 feet but target gets +1 defense. This can be done a maximum of 10 times (600 feet) which would give a bonus of +9 to defense. Auto-attacking units naturally want to get within optimal range before firing so they maximise shot value. They are a hard counter to fliers.

    On the flip side, they take a penalty in combat in melee. Melee is supposed to be a hard counter for archers. Right now the penalty is -2 but when you look at stack bonuses, perhaps that should be changed to 1/2 combat? I'll think on it.

    Quote:
    EDIT: "A warlord can only create X stacks"
    Can he give orders to only X stacks? Or more?


    Stacks are called stacks, all stacks are called this. However, I've noticed that not all stacks have a stack bonus. Even when the group is small, most times units don't seem to benefit from a stack bonus, unless there is a warlord around.

    Therefore I've done the concept of two different types of stacks, a formed stack, and a normal stack, which is basically just a group.

    Formed stack: Can be created by a warlord only, number of formed stacks is equal to leadership. At least one of these MUST be centered around the warlord at all times. Formed stacks can benefit from a stack bonus, depending on the number of units.

    I also originally made it a rule that only a formed stack could avoid an auto attack. This was to show the difference between scouts and non-scouts. This has been changed somewhat, but still works basically the same.

    New rule is that as long as a warlord is in the same hex, he can order all units within the hex however he wants. This does not apply to units outside of the hex. If a warlord dies, or leaves the hex, then the orders no longer apply. However, if he makes a formed stack, then those units will continue to obey his orders, even if he is not in the hex. A formed stack lasts until start of turn.

    Normal Stack: It's just a group, no bonuses, no benefits. Nothing.

    Quote:
    Do unlead units auto stack to 8 units?


    Yes, but it doesn't give any particular benefit. I'm currently working on mass battles and making deaths happen in in multiples of 8 units. I'd like to implement a ratio kill setup. 8 stabbers can kill 8 pikers in 4 rounds so the ratio is 1:4. Pikers kill at the same rate so ratio is 4:4 for Stabbers:Pikers, or 1:1. losing a dice roll doubles death rate.

    Something like that.

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    Last edited by TomaO2 on Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:44 pm 
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    Let me rephrase

    Does a stack with archery only units have any special benefit over a stack with ranged and non-ranged units?

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     Post Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:55 pm 
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    Yes. One.

    It's the new rule I made up to figure out how get the initiative round to work properly when you have nothing but archers. That was the first time I've had a battle like that. In all my example battles, it was archery rounds, and then the armies close in for melee, and then initiative begins.

    When you have nothing but archers then there is no melee combat to signal the start of the initiative round, so I changed the rule so that it happens when armies get into optimal range of each other. In the case of the first playtest battle, that was 60 feet.

    In a stack that has only archers, vs a mix of archers and melee, the archers can initiative the initiative round at 60 feet. while the mixed stack must get to 5-10' feet. If you had a melee unit mixed with the archers, then it would have taken another 2-3 turns or so to close in and activate the initiative round.

    Basically, you only get a benefit if you also have higher initiative than the enemy. That ability is to be able to begin the initiative round at will (minimum 1 round of ranged combat though). Initiative round grants 1 attack of every unit in your stack on the enemy, and the opponent can only defend. He may not attack back, even with his own ranged units.

    With a warlord, or scout stack, you can decide when the initiative round happens. So you could do it immediately as soon as you got into optimal range, or wait a bit instead. It happens automatically as soon as you get into melee range though. You can do it at any point, as long as you avoid melee combat.

    It's ranged combat, initiative round, then normal combat.

    Battles probably won't always start at exactly 100' though, move is...

    Wait

    15 move (90 feet)
    6 move (30 feet)
    100 (500 feet)

    Oh, I completely mixed up the range huh?

    Mentally, I was conflating feet and move but move should be 5 feet for per point of move, right?

    I was working range by feet, but doing move by the exact number. I'm not sure if that was reasonable or not.

    I think I screwed up on how to judge distances. *sighs*


    100 meter dash record is 10 seconds.
    100 meters is = 330 feet.
    In D&D, a round is 6 seconds.
    Then I should make it one half the record= 165 feet.
    One fifth of 165 is 33 feet.

    Hmm. 30 feet per action round huh.

    I dunno. What sound fair for determining move?

    60 feet sounded like a lot more range when the move was lower, but now it seems less good. I liked moving just the listed move, but I'm not sure anymore.

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     Post Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:07 pm 
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    Investigate the bow ranges IRL
    May help

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     Post Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:34 pm 
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    I have. I have a number of posts talking about it in the Erfworld RPG thread. It was a fairly recent development too.

    160 feet (max range for short range weapons [40'*4]) is a little over 50 feet YARDS, which the wiki says is about the throwing range of throwing knives. Longbows also top out at around 1000 feet. I had a bit more trouble with "normal" bows but eventually decided that 600 feet was about fine.

    All these numbers on range also roughly correspond to D&D3.5 rules, which I use as a place to get ideas from. It's pretty on the mark, as I proved to myself again just now. D&D says humans run at a base 30 feet per round (one round=6 seconds). And I just did the math that showed that this is a reasonable speed for peak human performance. I really shouldn't be surprised. D&D books have a lot of work put into them, after all.

    I just got myself confused because I used the move number, instead of move*5, which is the actual speed of a unit. Another thing to keep track of.

    I really need to stop with this game stuff and focus on updating rules. I have too many things I keep saying I need to change that I'm not even sure what they all are.

    EDIT:

    Also, I'm starting to think I messed up again with this range idea to trigger initiative round.

    I thought of that as an idea because I didn't think it fair that the hydwas triggered it after moving which didn't allow them to use their multi hit special, so I figured if you could delay it 1 round, then you could go full auto fire.

    But I'm not sure how well that works in practice, because it means an additional thing I have to consult with before I can finish a round.

    ANOTHER EDIT:


    On another note, I have added a new item to enhance combat options. You may now take large shields into a fight.

    Large shields give a double defense bonus over small shields +6 defense vs ranged, instead of +3.
    Furthermore, large shields can be used by any medium sized infantry unit, including hydwas, since they have the armour weapon special.
    The caveat is that you can't attack while using the weapon, you can only defend.
    You may drop the shield and get your weapon (takes one round) but if you do the shield drops to the ground. You can't carry it with you, and picking it up again... just assume you can't do it in combat.

    CAUGHT UP WITH ALL THE CHANGES I TALKED ABOUT IN THIS THREAD!

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    Last edited by TomaO2 on Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:06 am 
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    Okay, I altered dancefighting for the upteeth time. You no longer need to be able to dance fight when in a stack of dance fighters, he doesn't benefit from the bonus, of course. However, I am still keeping the rule that there needs to be 2 dance fighters in a stack, you may not move when starting it up, and it still takes 1 round to activate.

    Screening and directed fighting is important, so I just want to be sure everyone understand how they work.

    From now on, screens can block up to as many shots as they can without being outnumbered. This is normally 2 shots, but when using rapid reflexes, you can fight one additional enemy without being outnumbered, so dance fighters can screen for 3 shots. A screening unit will always be able to stop a blow from hitting the target, unless he rolls a 1 while failing. If he rolls a 1, then it hits the target, and target may not defend, unless he has arrow deflect, which works normally. Ranged attacks blocked by Rapid Reactions do not count as an attack in terms if deciding if a unit is outnumbered or not.

    Large shields can be carried by anyone, so consider adding a couple, given that they add a +6 bonus to defense. When no longer useful, they can be dropped and the unit can draw his normal weapon for the next round.

    Directed stacks work in 3 lines.
    -Front line must be minimum 1/2 of stack, if number falls below 1/2 numbers must be immediately replaced or the stack formation collapses. Front line units may screen front and mid line units.
    -Mid line has a +2 bonus (only +1 bonus vs fliers) against attacks. Mid-line may screen other mid line units or rear line. You do not need to have a mid line, although I'm considering a use for it to stop heavies doing a breakthrough by running through a bunch of smaller units.
    -Rear Line has a +4 def bonus (only +2 bonus vs fliers) against attacks, and cannot be attacked by land based melee until all units from the front/midlines are overwhelmed (fliers/ranged can still attack). Rear lines can only screen other rear lines.
    -A rear line unit that is screening with a large shield now gets a rear line bonus of +2 (ground units are 1/2 vs fliers and fliers are 1/2 vs ranged), and a bonus of +6 for a total bonus of +8 (+5 for fliers), which will make the idea of killing off front line units more palatable. Sure, killing the warlord is would be ideal, which is why you need to have a lot of bonuses to protect him. Remember that you can still be overwhelmed with fire though.

    Given how important a warlord is, I will allow the option of picking one additional warlord per side for the next fight, which can be picked instead of a 2 knights/1 hydwa. Assuming the terms are fine with Bandaid.

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     Post Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:00 am 
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    > Dance Fighting: <light infantry only> Gives a +2 to combat, and the rapid reactions special.

    There is no rapid reactions special in the list.

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     Post Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:26 am 
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    https://rpg.erfworld.com/Toma_RPG:_Full ... t#Specials

    I edit these specials so much, that I don't like doubling up, so I haven't moved them all down to the the specials list. Rapid Reactions is a knight class special. It belongs to the scout upgrade unit, the explorer.

    * explorer (promoted scout)- Rapid Reactions (when outnumbered, can change one defence roll into a combat roll against melee; stat penalties don't start until unit is outnumbered by 3 enemy units; damage cap reduced to 1/2 when using special; melee fighters only; must be unarmored to use)

    Rapid reactions is the melee variant of rapid shot. You can attack twice, but only against melee opponents that are currently attacking you. And now I remember why I stated that you couldn't be attacked when using rapid shot, because it overlapped with Rapid reactions. I'll have to make sure that rapid fire is specifically for ranged, and being hit in melee messes it up but not ranged fire. DONE

    Basically, with both rapid reactions and rapid fire, you can always attack twice, as long as there are two enemies to attack. Plus you will be able to defend against 3 units without being outnumbered. Which allows a screen unit to block 3 attacks instead of 2. Having a flat extra attack per round, I feel, is a rank 3 special, and would replace these two, and improve on them, since you can then attack a single target twice, without any damage cap reductions.

    Lancer (charge special), knight (power strike), explorer (rapid reactions), Longbowman(rapid reload), keshik(rapid shot), and slinger(multishot). These are the 6 knight class units that humans have access too. Each one has the scout, advanced initiative specials and one unique ability. Additionally, the knight and explorer can change their special and use deflect arrows instead, which allows them to block 1 ranged attack automatically. It's important to know the core human units of the army, and what they can do.

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     Post Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:14 am 
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    >>unlead stacks have no bonus
    >canon
    :thumbs-up:

    > "Initiative round"
    Over complicating / over thinking it Toma
    You should not model your rules to fit an arena game. This is Erfworld
    No real fan is going to argue that Move is useless when it is necessary to MOVE (and attack cities)
    (Plus, in the arena game, you are still using an hex map, albeit a linear one, so Move is still being used)

    > "bla bla Defense bla"
    (wait what?) I haven't really understood the rolling yet
    Are you saying that combat is determined by "Combat + Defense" rolls, which means the Combat stat has the same meaning as the Defense stat?
    And you added them together to try and simplify?

    Doesn't seem like a success :)

    How about the good old, Defense is AC, Combat is tohit? And stack and leadership bonus still add to both.

    How many rolls in a 1vs1 combat round as is? (four? one attack from each, with the defender roll from each? where combat and defense is summed)
    How many rolls in a 1vs1 combat round Defense is AC, Combat is tohit? (two)

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     Post Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:26 pm 
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    WurmD wrote:
    > "Initiative round"
    Over complicating / over thinking it Toma
    You should not model your rules to fit an arena game. This is Erfworld
    No real fan is going to argue that Move is useless when it is necessary to MOVE (and attack cities)
    (Plus, in the arena game, you are still using an hex map, albeit a linear one, so Move is still being used)


    It currently is an arena game though, and it might never move beyond this stage. If I don't make a rule to make it useful then everyone will just add to hits. I consider giving players all the options to build what they want for unique units to be a goal of my system. Probably the most fun part, in all honesty, at least for someone like me. So I want to encourage player choice. Which means making all options relevant.

    Hits is too tempting. Both you and Bandaid added them with your units. I need to incentivise players to not pick that option. I might need to change dodge, to... an initiative penalty? Maybe both. Hmm. It's something that I don't have an answer for right now, so I've put it on the back burner.

    Quote:
    > "bla bla Defense bla"
    (wait what?) I haven't really understood the rolling yet
    Are you saying that combat is determined by "Combat + Defense" rolls, which means the Combat stat has the same meaning as the Defense stat?
    And you added them together to try and simplify?


    You roll combat when fighting, and you roll defense when defending. You can use combat on one enemy per round, if you fight more than one, you use the defense stat. Rapid reflexes lets you fight both though (both must be melee). If you are being fired upon by ranged unit, you cannot fight back and use the defense stat. By having an initiative round, there is always the risk of there being at least 1 round where you will have to defend.

    It also incentivises you to not neglect move because the enemy getting a free round of attacks on your group can be seriously damaging.
    Quote:
    How about the good old, Defense is AC, Combat is tohit? And stack and leadership bonus still add to both.


    Um. AC is armour class. Combat is to hit. You are talking about making seperate rounds for each side. I did away with that to make attacks simultaneous. Movement positioning got too annoying. It's fine to use it until they meet up, but I'm not gonna keep track of the tactics that come after. That is just way too much details.

    Plus, it speeds up combat, because someone is getting hit every round. If you have a dedicated attack round for each side, then there is the chance that NO ONE gets hit. That's why combat vs combat, one person gets hit, unless the roll is the same. Much faster.

    I honestly went the seperate rounds thing for a long time. The Artemis fight vs Scarlett in book 2 show that this is canon, but it's just too much work. I didn't like scrapping it, but its too much work. The initiative round was, at least, a nod to rounds being canon. That and the fact that heavies take 1 round to recover from attacking, so I can actually play that battle out on paper, and copy it almost exactly.

    I wrote the battle out as an early concept back in the day. It helped define how I do a lot of things, and it holds up fairly well, despite me doing away with combat rounds because I added that heavies can only attack once every two rounds, so it works out like round combat anyway.

    Jetstone stack has initiative over dwagons, so they attack first (initiative round). Normal combat begins. Round 1 has the dwagons breath, which auto hits, and hob wins roll. Round 2, heavies recover and knights attack. Back and forth like so.

    Dwagons can be killed by 4 knights in one round. How? They can do it because stack+leadership+level bonuses. They can do it because I made the power strike special, which ignores DR and gives +1 dmg vs heavies. They can do it because damage is around the max. 30/4 is 7.5 (cap is 8. Well, 9 in this case, technically, because of other canon bits, I added the ability to go +1 over cap, but it's only useful in certain circumstances).

    Knights can do this so easily, while marbits peppering them with arrows barely scratches them, because knights/dwagons are only two size modifiers apart, rather than three (three size modifiers means the smaller units, like marbits vs dwagons count as a swarm, and damage is reduced) With all that, the knights can JUST barely do it.

    Artemis can one shot a dwagon. How? Crit rules (plus fate to hit bonus, which means no matter how improbable the roll, all I need is for it to be technically possible). Heavy hobs kill 2 units in a single hit. How? Heavies have cleave special, which allows them to attack a second unit if they kill a unit with their first attack. Why don't dwagons kill 2 units in one hit? Because heavy fliers trade the cleave special for more move.

    On and on it goes. Every question needs an answer. Every move must be backed up by CANON!

    Quote:
    How many rolls in a 1vs1 combat round as is? (four? one attack from each, with the defender roll from each? where combat and defense is summed)
    How many rolls in a 1vs1 combat round Defense is AC, Combat is tohit? (two)


    One roll per combat paring per round.
    If two groups of 8 attack each other, it's 8 combat rolls (auto-accack makes sure that no one doubles up).
    If two groups fight, and one has 8 and the other 16, then there are 16 rolls. 8 combat rolls, and 8 combat (from the 16 stack)/defense(from the 8 stack). Teh smaller stack is outnumbered as well, so -1 to combat.
    Furthermore, you can double up on single enemies, like having 4 archers fire at a single target. For that, the target rolls 4 defense rolls, at -2 to defense for being outnumbered.

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    Toma RPG: Erfworld - Rules and Discussion

    I'm making an Erfworld RPG, feel free to join in and add to the discussion. 

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