Forum    Members    Search    FAQ

Board index » Your Things » Your Games




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 71 posts ] 
 
Author Message
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:44 am 
User avatar
Armored Dwagon Monthly Winner This user has been published! Year of the Dwagon Supporter
Offline
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:14 pm
Posts: 591
Greetings.

I have been working on an erfworld game, on and off, for the past two years now. I originally started this back when the Erfworld RPG project was announced, but it's continued to grow into its own thing.

Toma RPG


At present, the focus is getting combat right. I have two completed sections, the first being how to create an Erfworld unit, and the second is a show of how small numbers (under 10 combatants) of basic infantry units (scouts, stabbers, archers, ect) fight each other.

I'm currently adding in rules specific to account for different size categories, and how beasts fight differently from infantry units, along with adding in fliers. Once that is done, warlords will be added into the mix, and, finally, I'd like to have a speedier method to resolve combat for large numbers (over 100) of varied combatants fight each other. I also need to make my index page a bit nicer and figure out the best way to present the information to the new readers.

Until that point, things like city development, player characters, casters, and ships, will be ignored. I'm trying to do things one step at a time.

If you have any comments or ideas, please feel free to share them here. I'll also be making posts as I come up with new ideas. Keep in mind that some things I've written contradict. As I add new elements, it causes me to rethink the existing stuff. The newest pages are Advanced Infantry and Beasts.

Thank you for your time.



Reference to threads that have also rules for Erfworld.


Other bits.
Spoiler: show
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/pc/564960-master-of-magic/faqs/2059
https://masterofmagic.fandom.com/wiki/Unit_Abilities

fliers and non fliers can't stack?

There's a fine line between a flier and a flying unit. A flier has the flight special, a flying unit is actually in the air. Maybe add to other like archers?

Mountain-Capable: Allows units to enter low mountain hexes without penalties normally incurred by low mountain hexes and medium mountain hexes with half penalties normally incurred by medium mountains. Provides a x2 bonus while in mountain hexes.

_________________
Toma RPG: Erfworld - Rules and Discussion

I'm making an Erfworld RPG, feel free to join in and add to the discussion. 


Last edited by TomaO2 on Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:36 am, edited 6 times in total.
  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:22 pm 
    User avatar
    Armored Dwagon Monthly Winner This user has been published! Year of the Dwagon Supporter
    Offline
    Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:14 pm
    Posts: 591
    I'm also going to be using this thread to write down new ideas as I come up with them. I will just have to hope it doesn't come across as spamming, but there is a lot of stuff I need to work out, and I thought my own thread is the best place for it, rather than taking up space on the general thread for the RPG.

    I'm currently rethinking scouts. I've given them the same stats as stabbers, but then I ask, why not make scouts the default instead of stabbers? This has been a problem for awhile, but I didn't have an answer until now. It's actually simple, now that I think about it. I just need to change the focus. I need to lower their fighting ability and raise their move instead. Since move is their primary ability, I think I should also remove their armour to give them an additional +1 to move. That gives scouts a 9 move instead of move 6 which is the standard.

    I think this works. I had been thinking they needed to be stronger type units to survive on their own, but what they should be is units that can escape and report to others, so they can send in troops to deal with the problem. This makes sure that scouts don't become the default troops, and gives them their own flavour.

    Changing stats around is tricky, cause I'm trying to come up with a fair system to trade stats in order to pop more units per turn. I was pretty happy with that system, but now I have to alter it a bit. I'll need to add in the ability to trade stats, which I didn't want to do.

    Hmm, I could put in a restriction that you need the scout special to maintain move. That would limit abuse. Alright, I think that covers it.

    DONE!

    Bleh, Battle#3 was brutal to update. Had to change the whole thing.

    _________________
    Toma RPG: Erfworld - Rules and Discussion

    I'm making an Erfworld RPG, feel free to join in and add to the discussion. 


    Last edited by TomaO2 on Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:28 pm 
    User avatar
    Armored Dwagon Monthly Winner This user has been published! Year of the Dwagon Supporter
    Offline
    Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:14 pm
    Posts: 591
    My current focus is on the advanced infantry page, and I think I am covering the bases. This page is mainly focusing on size modifier rules.

    One rule I like is that for random combat, small units are compelled to attack the bigger ones. I'm going with the idea of hit points to add up. A twoll has 12 hit points, a stabber has 4. Therefore, at least 3 stabbers would want to attack the twoll (4*3=12).

    I'm trying concepts for smaller units attacking larger ones. Tiny units make up swarms of 10 units. At 10 units, a successful hit does 1 damage, guaranteed.

    Another idea is automatic crits. Units do automatic crits on units that are two sized smaller, so a twoll always crits a marbit on a hit.

    Should there be a marbit swarm when fighting units that are three sizes larger, like dwagons? Should dwagons be able to do multi crits on marbit swarms? I need to work on this more.

    Stat modifications

    Okay, so I have a basic template for what general stats are for a given size, but that fails to take into account the variety of types out there. There are going to be units that are slower than the average, ones that hit harder, ones that are tougher, etc.

    To partially account for this. I introduced a system of swapping stats. Basically, you can lower combat to gain more defense, or increase move but suffer a loss to your hits. This allows for variety, but not completely imbalanced. I also want to give incentives for trying different things, so I add on modifications that come with the change to stats.

    * Combat: can be increased/decreased by 50% (round up, minimum 2). This will cause the opposite to happen to defense.
    **Increasing combat carries no additional effects
    **Decreasing combat lowers damage cap by 1/2.

    Combat is a really tricky one. Obviously, anyone would like to deal more damage, and damage is fixed relative to the combat stat. For a heavy, an increase of 1 point is enough to one shot a knight, as opposed to needing two hits. This is also a problem with chief warlord bonus. I'd like for a knight to not immediately die against a heavy.

    Right now, I'm trying to balance combat between a heavy and two knights. The knight
    s special is power strike, which gives a +1 damage bonus, and bypasses the damage reduction of heavies.

    In addition, I've given them the adv. initiative special so they can generally get a first hit, and there is a dodge bonus to give them a small advantage in dice rolls. It's also a rule that being outnumbered drops combat by 1.

    With a 5 combat base, the addition would be 2-3 points, which is a 7-8 combat.

    * Defence can be increased/decreased by 50% (round up, minimum 2). This will cause the opposite to happen to combat.
    ** Increasing defense gives a +1 to damage ignore, if heavy. Gives a die hard special if light (still okay at 0 hits, -1 incapacitates, -2 croaks).
    ** Decreasing defense gives a -1 to damage ignore, if heavy.

    This is another bit. Getting 3 damage is a bit difficult for a stabber, but doing 2 damage is not overly hard. So by making it easier take down a knight, you open yourself to being beaten by weak infantry types.

    On the other hand, an additional point of damage reduction would really make it hard for light units to do any damage at all.

    * Hits can be increased/decreased by 25% (round up, minimum 1). This will cause the opposite to happen to move.
    ** Increasing hits will give the armoured special for free.
    ** Decreasing hits will give ????

    I decreased the amount you can move hits and move around, because there is a MUCH greater variance in values. Hits can be from 3-90. A 50% on top of the 90 is a bit too much.

    Armoured special would be like a suit of armour full protection. Not sure what the bad effect would be.

    * Move can be increased decreased by 25% (round up, minimum 1) This will cause the opposite to happen to hits.
    ** Increasing move will give a +2 to dodge. Gains the advanced initiative special?
    ** Decreasing move will give a -2 to dodge. Move only counts 1/2 normal value when determining initiative.

    Not sure if that is too much or not

    -Tiny units may not alter stats.
    -Units that have taken the multi-unit special may not alter stats.

    Defensive fighting

    Defensive fighting is an important aspect of gameplay, so I have to consider how to best utilize it.

    Right now my unofficial rule has been that a scout can switch from offensive to defense fighting when against an auto attacking unit. Auto-attacking units mindlessly charge at their targets.

    What happens if the target is not an auto attacker though? Could they also shift stances?

    _________________
    Toma RPG: Erfworld - Rules and Discussion

    I'm making an Erfworld RPG, feel free to join in and add to the discussion. 

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:50 pm 
    User avatar
    Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
    Offline
    Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2015 6:47 pm
    Posts: 620
    tomaO2 wrote:
    I'm trying concepts for smaller units attacking larger ones. Tiny units make up swarms of 10 units. At 10 units, a successful hit does 1 damage, guaranteed.


    have you tried to see if the "master of magic" battle system clash better for what you want to do? it has "stacks" of units it has Hit points and "attack" like in erfworld. it even has "autoattack" on units when there is no leader guiding the army. (easily seen on the neutral enemies).

    it also can have generated ruins custodied by ferals (which can even go to a city to attack it!) I know that erfworld is more complex, but it can give you some ideas and feedback on your system. at least in the "battle" aspect. :)

    _________________
    "Retconjuration", "This is Sparta!", "It's allies about the hair.", "What the Hell!?!", "Two fer one!"<- events Closed.

    Math's is in the air! <- date Open until march 1st!

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:17 pm 
    User avatar
    Armored Dwagon Monthly Winner This user has been published! Year of the Dwagon Supporter
    Offline
    Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:14 pm
    Posts: 591
    Thanks for the reply.

    Also thanks for giving me third place in the contest, not that I really care about the money.

    "Master of Magic", you mean the 1994 game?

    I did a test. I got a guy with a horse fighting a bunch of zombies. They were in about 5 groups

    As far as I can see, it has "stacks" but they are in name only. It's a lot easier if you assume that there is this group and it will always be this group, with this many. Getting hit loses some points, but doesn't seem to cause any other issues. Damage doesn't seem to vary as widely as in my game either.

    I mean, that's easy enough to do, I could just say a group of 10 tiny infantry do 1 damage on a hit and you need to kill them all. When you damage them you do normal damage. Which means a knight could kill up to the damage cap of 8 in a single stroke.

    That is certainly the easy way to do it. Just treat every 10 swarm as if it was a single enemy for the duration of combat.

    I was thinking of it in terms of a group of 10 tiny infantry can do 1 damage but if 2 got killed, then next round you would have to roll 1d10 and get a 3+ to do damage on a successful attack. I was also thinking of putting in a limit that you can only kill so many tinies per attack, because it's a lot easier to kill a human, than 10 rats in a single blow. So I was thinking something like a small can kill 1 rat a turn, a medium can kill 2 rats a turn, a large can kill 4 rats... Something like that.

    But maybe that is me just overthinking. After all, there are already a lot of rules, and I need to simplify where possible, so maybe I should just do it the simple way.

    Taking the idea further, if a heavy can crit on a marbit, then a marbit's hit points are essentially 1 each. So make a marbit swarm, and determine what the damage is. Typical marbit can do 1-2 damage, which is absorbed by the heavy's DR. Therefore, you end up in the same situation. A 10-swarm of small infantry can do 1 damage and is treated as a single enemy for the battle.

    A twoll killing 5 marbits in a single stroke seems a bit much though... A dwagon killing 5 in a stroke doesn't sound too bad though. So maybe move it up to 3 size modifiers. Two sizes bigger gives an instant crit, which would mean you kill 1 marbit per turn. But a dwagon kills normally?

    Hmm, I'll think on it more.

    _________________
    Toma RPG: Erfworld - Rules and Discussion

    I'm making an Erfworld RPG, feel free to join in and add to the discussion. 

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:04 pm 
    User avatar
    Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
    Offline
    Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2015 6:47 pm
    Posts: 620
    tomaO2 wrote:
    Thanks for the reply.

    Also thanks for giving me third place in the contest, not that I really care about the money.

    "Master of Magic", you mean the 1994 game?


    Edit: to you for participating. and yes I refer to that 1994 game (quite entertaining to boot)

    also before I forget, here's a link to the FAQ of that game, the part about combat shows at least on section 4.5 (multi units and shields). https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/pc/564960-master-of-magic/faqs/2059

    edit 2: and here's a link to the MoM wiki, which also contains nice information for you to read and get inspiration, linking to the unit habilities. https://masterofmagic.fandom.com/wiki/Unit_Abilities

    Quote:
    I did a test. I got a guy with a horse fighting a bunch of zombies. They were in about 5 groups

    As far as I can see, it has "stacks" but they are in name only. It's a lot easier if you assume that there is this group and it will always be this group, with this many. Getting hit loses some points, but doesn't seem to cause any other issues. Damage doesn't seem to vary as widely as in my game either.


    nope, the number of "attack icons" and health icons is what it roll for each individual guy in the unit (for example, if you have 3 cavaliers in a group, it would be 3xnumber of attack icons, if the roll of succesfull attacks is higher than the number of succescus blocks (shields) from the enemy, you score hits, if the number of hits it deals is higher than the amount of hearts the enemy has, it loses one unit in the "stack" and continue assigning damage to the rest of the stack.

    Thus its more advantageous to harm multiple group of units so they have less "units" on their stack, so they will deal less damage to you, than emptying a group of units fully but leaving the rest of groups intact.

    I suppose its better explained in a FAQ, which shouldn't be hard to find using google. the combat system is quite complex. :)

    Quote:
    I mean, that's easy enough to do, I could just say a group of 10 tiny infantry do 1 damage on a hit and you need to kill them all. When you damage them you do normal damage. Which means a knight could kill up to the damage cap of 8 in a single stroke.

    That is certainly the easy way to do it. Just treat every 10 swarm as if it was a single enemy for the duration of combat.

    I was thinking of it in terms of a group of 10 tiny infantry can do 1 damage but if 2 got killed, then next round you would have to roll 1d10 and get a 3+ to do damage on a successful attack. I was also thinking of putting in a limit that you can only kill so many tinies per attack, because it's a lot easier to kill a human, than 10 rats in a single blow. So I was thinking something like a small can kill 1 rat a turn, a medium can kill 2 rats a turn, a large can kill 4 rats... Something like that.

    But maybe that is me just overthinking. After all, there are already a lot of rules, and I need to simplify where possible, so maybe I should just do it the simple way.


    irregardless of the system you use, you are looking for a ton of dice rolls, which would means its better for the cpu to handle that, since this is a strategy game and not an RPG tabletop.

    Quote:
    Taking the idea further, if a heavy can crit on a marbit, then a marbit's hit points are essentially 1 each. So make a marbit swarm, and determine what the damage is. Typical marbit can do 1-2 damage, which is absorbed by the heavy's DR. Therefore, you end up in the same situation. A 10-swarm of small infantry can do 1 damage and is treated as a single enemy for the battle.


    I would just assume that a crit works like on Heroes of might & magic series, and just double the damage dealt.

    Quote:
    A twoll killing 5 marbits in a single stroke seems a bit much though... A dwagon killing 5 in a stroke doesn't sound too bad though. So maybe move it up to 3 size modifiers. Two sizes bigger gives an instant crit, which would mean you kill 1 marbit per turn. But a dwagon kills normally?

    Hmm, I'll think on it more.


    Do as you wish. Technically the easiest way to represent the full war scale" would be with the Heroes of might & magic, where all the units of the same name are inside the same group (you as leader can separate the stacks on two groups for tactical actions, like saving up counter attacks from your units).

    also, all this headache comes with Rob not having thought really how the system plays out (is this single unit fights like on Battle for Wesnoth?, does it works like Heroes of Might & magic? or its like Master of Magic like?"

    btw, on the Heroes of might & magic and master of magic. you can have units capable of casting a spell instead of attacking. :)

    _________________
    "Retconjuration", "This is Sparta!", "It's allies about the hair.", "What the Hell!?!", "Two fer one!"<- events Closed.

    Math's is in the air! <- date Open until march 1st!

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:43 am 
    User avatar
    Armored Dwagon Monthly Winner This user has been published! Year of the Dwagon Supporter
    Offline
    Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:14 pm
    Posts: 591
    Vendanna wrote:
    also before I forget, here's a link to the FAQ of that game, the part about combat shows at least on section 4.5 (multi units and shields). https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/pc/564960-master-of-magic/faqs/2059

    edit 2: and here's a link to the MoM wiki, which also contains nice information for you to read and get inspiration, linking to the unit abilities. https://masterofmagic.fandom.com/wiki/Unit_Abilities


    Thank you for the correction, the health bar threw me off. Thank you also for the links, and comments. I appreciate all feedback.

    Quote:
    nope, the number of "attack icons" and health icons is what it roll for each individual guy in the unit (for example, if you have 3 cavaliers in a group, it would be 3xnumber of attack icons, if the roll of successful attacks is higher than the number of succescus blocks (shields) from the enemy, you score hits, if the number of hits it deals is higher than the amount of hearts the enemy has, it loses one unit in the "stack" and continue assigning damage to the rest of the stack.

    Thus its more advantageous to harm multiple group of units so they have less "units" on their stack, so they will deal less damage to you, than emptying a group of units fully but leaving the rest of groups intact.

    I suppose its better explained in a FAQ, which shouldn't be hard to find using google. the combat system is quite complex. :)


    I can see why you recommended this, it does seem very similar how I'd imagine Erfworld combat to be like, except on a level of complexity that I would never bother trying to recreate because it makes my head hurt looking at all these calculations.

    Okay, so the main things are number in the stack
    Move
    Melee attack per figure
    Defense per figure
    Hit points per figure
    resistance rolls.

    Let me see if I got this right.
    If unit has a strength of 6 swords. That means there are 6 chances, at 30%, to hit an enemy. Generally speaking, he'll get 2 hits.
    If unit has a defense of 3 shields. That means there are 3 chances, at 30%, to block an enemy. Which generally end up as 1 block.

    2 hits - 1 block = 1 hit. Hit is subtracted from heart total. If heart total is 1, unit is dead. Repeat process for every unit in the stack.

    Reminds me of heroquest. You are told you can roll X number of dice for attack, and X number for defense. Attack dice have 3 sides that mean the attack succeeds (50%), while defence dice have 2 (33%) sides that mean you defend. You roll all dice at once and if you roll successful defence dice when none of the attacks worked, that's just too bad. Could have been worse, enemy might have rolled all attacks and you rolled no defense.

    Looks like move gives multiple attacks as well?

    When the stack attacks, it costs move. With sufficient move, entire stack can attack again?

    Resistance is an interesting bit, but I don't think it has a place in Erfworld. Either you are immune or not to various forms of special damage. Like fire, you don't get partial immunity to fire.

    Quote:
    irregardless of the system you use, you are looking for a ton of dice rolls, which would means its better for the cpu to handle that, since this is a strategy game and not an RPG tabletop.


    It's an RPG though? I mean, if you define combat as being more tactical, like in D&D, rather than strategic, like in strategy games. I'm not getting into the strategic element at this time, but it's probably going to be massively dumbed down, and I certainly am not going to be having a computer doing a ton of calculations for me.

    I'm just trying to figure out how a single bigger unit would be taking down a group of small ones.

    Quote:
    I would just assume that a crit works like on Heroes of might & magic series, and just double the damage dealt.


    I have never seen a crit mean anything other than death, and that is how I am running it. As long as your combat roll is high enough, any unit can be critted. Death comes easy in Erfworld... I remember a bit of an argument awhile back, and it ended up being agreed that crits are death blows.

    Quote:
    Do as you wish. Technically the easiest way to represent the full war scale" would be with the Heroes of might & magic, where all the units of the same name are inside the same group (you as leader can separate the stacks on two groups for tactical actions, like saving up counter attacks from your units).


    Certainly a good way to go if you want simplicity, and I do. I could easily imagine it being something like that.

    That said, while I understand that comments seem to keep going in the direction of trying to figure out how mass combat would go, but I really would like the discussion to remain on a more tactical level. I haven't even included warlords at this point.

    I mean, they are certainly on the list, but I deliberately didn't add them yet because they are such fundamental game changers to combat, so I wanted to iron out how things go without them around.

    Quote:
    also, all this headache comes with Rob not having thought really how the system plays out (is this single unit fights like on Battle for Wesnoth?, does it works like Heroes of Might & magic? or its like Master of Magic like?"

    btw, on the Heroes of might & magic and master of magic. you can have units capable of casting a spell instead of attacking. :)


    I also feel like Rob didn't plan out his system beforehand. Still, I think I've done pretty good with what Rob has put down anyway. I'm pretty proud of the unit creation method, which I feel pretty closely replicates Erfworld units.

    The lack of spells was deliberate, because I'm focusing on physical combat right now. The specials are difficult enough to work with, without adding in magic. Magic will be one of the last things added, if I get to that point.

    _________________
    Toma RPG: Erfworld - Rules and Discussion

    I'm making an Erfworld RPG, feel free to join in and add to the discussion. 

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:22 am 
    User avatar
    Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
    Offline
    Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2015 6:47 pm
    Posts: 620
    tomaO2 wrote:
    Thank you for the correction, the health bar threw me off. Thank you also for the links, and comments. I appreciate all feedback.

    I can see why you recommended this, it does seem very similar how I'd imagine Erfworld combat to be like, except on a level of complexity that I would never bother trying to recreate because it makes my head hurt looking at all these calculations.

    Okay, so the main things are number in the stack
    Move
    Melee attack per figure
    Defense per figure
    Hit points per figure
    resistance rolls.

    Let me see if I got this right.
    If unit has a strength of 6 swords. That means there are 6 chances, at 30%, to hit an enemy. Generally speaking, he'll get 2 hits.
    If unit has a defense of 3 shields. That means there are 3 chances, at 30%, to block an enemy. Which generally end up as 1 block.

    2 hits - 1 block = 1 hit. Hit is subtracted from heart total. If heart total is 1, unit is dead. Repeat process for every unit in the stack.


    Yep, you got it right. and obviously its complex since its supposed to be made for a computer to handle it rather than our human brains (we are no mathamaners)

    Quote:
    Reminds me of heroquest. You are told you can roll X number of dice for attack, and X number for defense. Attack dice have 3 sides that mean the attack succeeds (50%), while defence dice have 2 (33%) sides that mean you defend. You roll all dice at once and if you roll successful defence dice when none of the attacks worked, that's just too bad. Could have been worse, enemy might have rolled all attacks and you rolled no defense.


    yep, its like that, attacker (like a twoll) rolls like 7 dice and got fated to roll 7 hits, the stack of
    8 marbits (with defense 2) roll for defense in order of each marbit, first rolls 1 shield, so stops 1 attack then eats one for the team. (5 hits pending -1 marbit), the second one rolls 2 (2 hits pending -1 marbit), the third one rolls one and the attack ends with its death.

    Total twoll killed 3 marbits with one attack. higher leadership affects more to stacks with multiple units (like bats) that also make a nice cushion. but higher units rolling more dice is still better to deal up with high resistance units (since can bypass their defence). this is why those zombies couldn't do a thing to Ansom at all, no matter how many there where.

    Quote:
    Looks like move gives multiple attacks as well?

    When the stack attacks, it costs move. With sufficient move, entire stack can attack again?


    Probably, I haven't played the game in such a long time that I'm not sure about that thou. it also has a "ammo" reserve so archers will stop shooting arrows and have to come to melee, and same with casters (running out of juice). note that the game has "invisibility" which acts as erfworld "Veil". and some units have it as intrinsic without needing a spell.

    Quote:
    Resistance is an interesting bit, but I don't think it has a place in Erfworld. Either you are immune or not to various forms of special damage. Like fire, you don't get partial immunity to fire.


    well, while not immune to it, but its almost the same, getting +10 dice rolls against it usually protects against low fire applying critters (for example low leadership drakes with fire breath 3 attack) you should realise that +10 "immune thing" its like that fate spell marie cast to "know where to shoot at". it helps her greatly but it ain't perfect defence either.

    Quote:
    It's an RPG though? I mean, if you define combat as being more tactical, like in D&D, rather than strategic, like in strategy games. I'm not getting into the strategic element at this time, but it's probably going to be massively dumbed down, and I certainly am not going to be having a computer doing a ton of calculations for me.


    it cannot be an RPG, though, since that one is designed for just small fights the battles shown in the comic are WAY too large for "roll initiative, declare action, next character in the unit" unless you use "large scale" rules which are just high simplifications, and are usually lame compared to the basic premise they use of "small engagements". it has more chances to be a warhammer rulesheet than a RPG.

    I understand why you would think strategic like an RPG, since for all those 10+ years of jillian never paying off and sucking, what we have seen mostly is interaction with casters that just ignore the combat system since they "look cooler".

    Quote:
    I'm just trying to figure out how a single bigger unit would be taking down a group of small ones.


    Well, I already proposed you multiple ideas for that, and I cannot do more than this. ^^

    tomaO2 wrote:
    Vendanna wrote:
    I would just assume that a crit works like on Heroes of might & magic series, and just double the damage dealt.


    I have never seen a crit mean anything other than death, and that is how I am running it. As long as your combat roll is high enough, any unit can be critted. Death comes easy in Erfworld... I remember a bit of an argument awhile back, and it ended up being agreed that crits are death blows.


    Well, looking at master of magic links there's archangels that when it attacks UNDEAD the undead must roll a save or instantly die (and they even get a -9 to their save as well). which is an awesome way to represent those rifle's from charlie. a Crit could work in the same way as a "crit chance" that forces the opposing to roll or die so higher level warlords could have higher crit chance.

    tomaO2 wrote:
    Certainly a good way to go if you want simplicity, and I do. I could easily imagine it being something like that.

    That said, while I understand that comments seem to keep going in the direction of trying to figure out how mass combat would go, but I really would like the discussion to remain on a more tactical level. I haven't even included warlords at this point.

    I mean, they are certainly on the list, but I deliberately didn't add them yet because they are such fundamental game changers to combat, so I wanted to iron out how things go without them around.


    Well, its not like the warlord affects that much! the warlord functions like a "hero"/leader in those games (they even have equip slots! in erfworld) and the only change its usually a buff on the rolls made but not more than that, casters thou, its a different thing altogether.

    tomaO2 wrote:
    Vendanna wrote:
    also, all this headache comes with Rob not having thought really how the system plays out (is this single unit fights like on Battle for Wesnoth?, does it works like Heroes of Might & magic? or its like Master of Magic like?"

    btw, on the Heroes of might & magic and master of magic. you can have units capable of casting a spell instead of attacking. :)


    I also feel like Rob didn't plan out his system beforehand. Still, I think I've done pretty good with what Rob has put down anyway. I'm pretty proud of the unit creation method, which I feel pretty closely replicates Erfworld units.

    The lack of spells was deliberate, because I'm focusing on physical combat right now. The specials are difficult enough to work with, without adding in magic. Magic will be one of the last things added, if I get to that point.


    Well, its obvious that he didn't planned it out, or we would have it already after 10 years instead of "vague" rules that the userbase had to come up with (not even including the magic system, I always thought Rob shoot himself on the boot with it!!).

    another of the reasons I linked you to the MoM wiki is because it has already units with specials, and since its already a strategic/developed game you could check up the "cost" to build an unit with specials to use up as a guideline. it even has Fire drakes like those Stanley likes! the cost is how much production you need to use to build it (be magic summoned or paid with gold).

    the good thing is that adding magic to the Mom is simple (since it already is built with one!) and has things like "enchant world" magics that affects the entire world (like titanic magic ;) )

    _________________
    "Retconjuration", "This is Sparta!", "It's allies about the hair.", "What the Hell!?!", "Two fer one!"<- events Closed.

    Math's is in the air! <- date Open until march 1st!

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:32 pm 
    User avatar
    Armored Dwagon Monthly Winner This user has been published! Year of the Dwagon Supporter
    Offline
    Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:14 pm
    Posts: 591
    Vendanna wrote:
    yep, its like that, attacker (like a twoll) rolls like 7 dice and got fated to roll 7 hits, the stack of
    8 marbits (with defense 2) roll for defense in order of each marbit, first rolls 1 shield, so stops 1 attack then eats one for the team. (5 hits pending -1 marbit), the second one rolls 2 (2 hits pending -1 marbit), the third one rolls one and the attack ends with its death.

    Total twoll killed 3 marbits with one attack. higher leadership affects more to stacks with multiple units (like bats) that also make a nice cushion. but higher units rolling more dice is still better to deal up with high resistance units (since can bypass their defence). this is why those zombies couldn't do a thing to Ansom at all, no matter how many there where.


    Oh, so the number of hits can be transferred from one target to the next. I was a little unsure about that.


    Quote:
    Probably, I haven't played the game in such a long time that I'm not sure about that thou. it also has a "ammo" reserve so archers will stop shooting arrows and have to come to melee, and same with casters (running out of juice). note that the game has "invisibility" which acts as erfworld "Veil". and some units have it as intrinsic without needing a spell.


    Yes, I noticed the ammo limit.

    I agree with you, if you want to mod a video game to run Erfworld, this does seem like a fairly good game to use.



    Quote:
    well, while not immune to it, but its almost the same, getting +10 dice rolls against it usually protects against low fire applying critters (for example low leadership drakes with fire breath 3 attack) you should realise that +10 "immune thing" its like that fate spell marie cast to "know where to shoot at". it helps her greatly but it ain't perfect defence either.


    Yes, I saw that, those counts as specials, that wasn't what I meant.

    What I was saying is that the general resistance stat, I don't think, has an erfworld equivalent. I don't believe the concept of a saving throw exists on erfworld. There are things that have a small chance like working, like gas, but a high level knight is as likely to crit from breathing it in as a low level stabber would. It's utterly random. As long as you take in a lungful of the gas, you can crit.

    Likewise, even with something as strong as a gun, if you get hit in a limb, you survive. Like when that archon was hit twice in the leg saving Parson you don't die, but if she got hit in the chest, she probably would have. There was also how that warlord died during dwagonfall. He got his arm melted off by the dwagon crap, but only died friendly fire hit him through the chest.

    This is an aspect of my hit point rules. You can have both arms, and legs chopped off, and still survive. You can be skinned alive, your bones exposed, your jaw ripped out of your head, and survive, but get hit that penetrates into the torso/ head area, and crit.

    This is how I seperate the fact that hit points are so low, while we see units that take a horrifying amount of damage and still manage to fight.

    My current thinking is that there are no saving throws, just a lot of ways you can tank damage that doesn't cross a certain threshold, but when you cross that threshold, even being a dwagon at full hit won't save you from Artemis critting you in a single shot of her bow.

    That's why I designed crits to be seperate from actual damage. Small units have a damage cap so that larger units don't have to worry, but if their combat is high enough, they can skip the need to overcome hits, and just go for an instant kill instead.

    If you think saving throws do/should exist, however, feel free to make your case on the matter. I feel pretty settled on this, but maybe I'll get an interesting viewpoint to consider.

    Quote:
    it cannot be an RPG, though, since that one is designed for just small fights the battles shown in the comic are WAY too large for "roll initiative, declare action, next character in the unit" unless you use "large scale" rules which are just high simplifications, and are usually lame compared to the basic premise they use of "small engagements". it has more chances to be a warhammer rulesheet than a RPG.


    Back when I originally started thinking up how to do battles, I did a mock up of the Jillian vs dwagon battle at the start of book 1, and the Artemis and knights vs Scarlet and company battles. Both are small tactical things.

    That's what I currently want to do, and that will be the focus of this thread until I am finished doing so.

    Quote:
    Well, I already proposed you multiple ideas for that, and I cannot do more than this. ^^


    Yes, basically, high sword units can kill as many units that can have their defense overcome?

    Unit has 12 swords and is attacking 10 stack, who's units have only one hp and one shield.

    Unit gets 4 swords rolled.
    unit 1: no shield (dead)
    unit 2: shield; no shield (dead)
    unit 3: no shield (dead)

    Stack has 6 units left and can now counterattack.

    I think I can follow that with the auto crit I've been thinking off.

    10 marbits attack one dwagon.
    Marbit combat is 1, and dwagon DR is 1, so ten marbits can do 1 damage per round.
    Dwagon is 3 sizes bigger, so he can auto crit, and kill multiple units.
    Dwagon combat is 8 so he kills 8 on a turn.

    A dwagon upkeep is 20 (base) * 5 (massive) * 3 (rank 3)= 300
    Marbit upkeep is 20 (base) /2 (small) *1 (rank 1) / 3 (multi unit special; round up)= 4

    300/4 = 75

    You can pay upkeep for 1 dwagon, or 75 marbits.


    tomaO2 wrote:
    Well, it's not like the warlord affects that much! the warlord functions like a "hero"/leader in those games (they even have equip slots! in erfworld) and the only change its usually a buff on the rolls made but not more than that, casters thou, its a different thing altogether.


    I think the command feature is important, cause, otherwise it's just a mob attacking.


    Quote:
    Well, its obvious that he didn't planned it out, or we would have it already after 10 years instead of "vague" rules that the userbase had to come up with (not even including the magic system, I always thought Rob shoot himself on the boot with it!!).

    another of the reasons I linked you to the MoM wiki is because it has already units with specials, and since it's already a strategic/developed game you could check up the "cost" to build an unit with specials to use up as a guideline. it even has Fire drakes like those Stanley likes! the cost is how much production you need to use to build it (be magic summoned or paid with gold).

    the good thing is that adding magic to the Mom is simple (since it already is built with one!) and has things like "enchant world" magics that affects the entire world (like titanic magic ;) )


    Magic system was fine until you introduced no cost trimancer links, I think.

    Cost is one major difference though. Cost is just upkeep, building units is mainly time. I like the listing of specials, and magic, and items and groups.

    It's turn based, and it says it has counter attacks. Counter attack is an interesting concept. I could simulate it by saying that, at some point, both sides do X damage to each other. Maybe the dwagon can just kill X number per turn while marbits do 1 damage, and skip dice rolls. Cause, when you think about just how badly you can get outnumbered, you have to assume you are taking some damage.

    _________________
    Toma RPG: Erfworld - Rules and Discussion

    I'm making an Erfworld RPG, feel free to join in and add to the discussion. 

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:28 pm 
    User avatar
    Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
    Offline
    Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2015 6:47 pm
    Posts: 620
    tomaO2 wrote:
    Oh, so the number of hits can be transferred from one target to the next. I was a little unsure about that.


    its explained in the FAQ, so yes it works like that.

    tomaO2 wrote:
    Yes, I noticed the ammo limit.

    I agree with you, if you want to mod a video game to run Erfworld, this does seem like a fairly good game to use.


    also the Transilvitias in quite easy to mod, it would be like the draconians (aka flying) with life steal as special. thou I should note that the "stronger" races are usually placed on the mirran plane, to stop the curbstomping a bit. ^^

    tomaO2 wrote:
    What I was saying is that the general resistance stat, I don't think, has an erfworld equivalent. I don't believe the concept of a saving throw exists on erfworld. There are things that have a small chance like working, like gas, but a high level knight is as likely to crit from breathing it in as a low level stabber would. It's utterly random. As long as you take in a lungful of the gas, you can crit.


    there's a saving throw, at least as we saw with "falling" that has different outcomes (which is a roll), and we also have the "detect" veiled units which is also a roll, when parson received back the scout with a grenade, it was also a saving throw (otherwise it would have blown up on his nose).

    tomaO2 wrote:
    Likewise, even with something as strong as a gun, if you get hit in a limb, you survive. Like when that archon was hit twice in the leg saving Parson you don't die, but if she got hit in the chest, she probably would have. There was also how that warlord died during dwagonfall. He got his arm melted off by the dwagon crap, but only died friendly fire hit him through the chest.

    This is an aspect of my hit point rules. You can have both arms, and legs chopped off, and still survive. You can be skinned alive, your bones exposed, your jaw ripped out of your head, and survive, but get hit that penetrates into the torso/ head area, and crit.

    This is how I seperate the fact that hit points are so low, while we see units that take a horrifying amount of damage and still manage to fight.

    My current thinking is that there are no saving throws, just a lot of ways you can tank damage that doesn't cross a certain threshold, but when you cross that threshold, even being a dwagon at full hit won't save you from Artemis critting you in a single shot of her bow.


    do as you feel is better for your system.

    tomaO2 wrote:
    Yes, basically, high sword units can kill as many units that can have their defense overcome?

    Unit has 12 swords and is attacking 10 stack, who's units have only one hp and one shield.

    Unit gets 4 swords rolled.
    unit 1: no shield (dead)
    unit 2: shield; no shield (dead)
    unit 3: no shield (dead)

    Stack has 6 units left and can now counterattack.


    Yes, its like that, as a note pikers/lancers have first strike, so unless the opponent negates first strike, they will attack first then the attack takes place.

    tomaO2 wrote:
    I think I can follow that with the auto crit I've been thinking off.

    10 marbits attack one dwagon.
    Marbit combat is 1, and dwagon DR is 1, so ten marbits can do 1 damage per round.
    Dwagon is 3 sizes bigger, so he can auto crit, and kill multiple units.
    Dwagon combat is 8 so he kills 8 on a turn.

    A dwagon upkeep is 20 (base) * 5 (massive) * 3 (rank 3)= 300
    Marbit upkeep is 20 (base) /2 (small) *1 (rank 1) / 3 (multi unit special; round up)= 4

    300/4 = 75

    You can pay upkeep for 1 dwagon, or 75 marbits.


    sounds fine. thou you should note that a dwagon is OP since it has too much movement. so its absurd that they managed to circle some dwagons and get them killed in that area on the first book. since there's no Zone of control rules mentioned anywhere (like it happens on battle for wesnoth)

    tomaO2 wrote:
    Magic system was fine until you introduced no cost trimancer links, I think.


    Not really, and it shows that the thinkamancers (highly shown in the erfworld books prominently) seems to be able to do almost anything without drawbacks (like magic the gathering blue) and that's mostly because balder didn't defined from the get go effects pertaining each class and gave "free powers" based on lateral thinking with the discipline.

    you should note that "mathamancers" seems to suck, there is no Retconjurers (its not like it couldn't be added if it had a guideline on how they work) nor how carnymancers seems to be able to do almost anything like thinkamancers (so charlie doesn't feel underpowered), and let's not start with rhymeomancers shenanigans. (this is why I said that balder shoot himself in the foot with all the disciplines especially signamancy which forces him to look and relook everything before submitting)

    tomaO2 wrote:
    Cost is one major difference though. Cost is just upkeep, building units is mainly time. I like the listing of specials, and magic, and items and groups.

    It's turn based, and it says it has counter attacks. Counter attack is an interesting concept. I could simulate it by saying that, at some point, both sides do X damage to each other. Maybe the dwagon can just kill X number per turn while marbits do 1 damage, and skip dice rolls. Cause, when you think about just how badly you can get outnumbered, you have to assume you are taking some damage.


    Well, you can skip dice rolls if you like, but then you are disrespecting the "numbers" titan and stopping "fate" to change the dice on its favor, etc... and also you would affect a few other caster classes as well! :o

    Counter attacks depends on how you implement them, the mom allows counter attacks as long as the unit can counterattack and have living units in the stack, on HoMM series you can only counterattack once to an enemy unit with your "stack" unit, unless they are Royal Griphons that can always counterattack, etc... the good thing is that counterattack makes the battle faster paced since the units will die faster in less rounds. :)

    _________________
    "Retconjuration", "This is Sparta!", "It's allies about the hair.", "What the Hell!?!", "Two fer one!"<- events Closed.

    Math's is in the air! <- date Open until march 1st!

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:12 pm 
    User avatar
    Armored Dwagon Monthly Winner This user has been published! Year of the Dwagon Supporter
    Offline
    Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:14 pm
    Posts: 591
    Vendanna wrote:
    also the Transilvitias in quite easy to mod, it would be like the draconians (aka flying) with life steal as special. thou I should note that the "stronger" races are usually placed on the mirran plane, to stop the curb stomping a bit. ^^


    *Reads lifesteal* Hmm, I don't see any evidence that drinking blood heals the vampires in Erfworld, but I could certainly swing it that way.

    Even if I don't use it though, the variety of specials listed is helpful. It will give me some good ideas when I fill out my "specials" page.

    Quote:
    there's a saving throw, at least as we saw with "falling" that has different outcomes (which is a roll), and we also have the "detect" veiled units which is also a roll, when parson received back the scout with a grenade, it was also a saving throw (otherwise it would have blown up on his nose).


    I feel that falling works the same as inhaling gas. Random chance to get hurt or die. Height doesn't matter, weight doesn't matter, unit doesn't matter. A saving throw means that the specific unit has a higher chance to avoid a certain type of damage and there is no evidence of that.

    Detecting veiled is a roll, but that isn't a saving throw.

    I interprite that the grenade was thrown away in time. It's not a saving throw. A saving throw would mean the grenade went off right next to you but you completely avoided damage anyway, in defiance of all known physics.

    Quote:
    do as you feel is better for your system.


    Yep, take what works and avoid what doesn't.

    Quote:
    Yes, its like that, as a note pikers/lancers have first strike, so unless the opponent negates first strike, they will attack first then the attack takes place.


    I got mechanics for first strike already, don't need to add them for swarm rules. Honestly, a lancer would probably have a harder time fighting after a swarm got in close range, so I'll be giving him a malus for this situation.

    Quote:
    sounds fine. thou you should note that a dwagon is OP since it has too much movement. so its absurd that they managed to circle some dwagons and get them killed in that area on the first book. since there's no Zone of control rules mentioned anywhere (like it happens on battle for wesnoth)


    Um, right. Zone of control. I had forgotten about that. Well hexes are pretty big, and it would be a bit absurd that a few dwagons would be able to do something like that. You wouldn't want them to do that either, it would make it a lot easier to find the weak dwagons if the enemy could feel their zone of control by being next to them.

    If there was a zone of control, there would probably be some sort of minimum that a unit would have to be stacked in order to exert it. Maybe it might be something worth revisiting at a later date though.

    Quote:
    Not really, and it shows that the thinkamancers (highly shown in the erfworld books prominently) seems to be able to do almost anything without drawbacks (like magic the gathering blue) and that's mostly because balder didn't defined from the get go effects pertaining each class and gave "free powers" based on lateral thinking with the discipline.


    Fair points. There is a reason why casting is at the bottom of my list of things to implement. When I do get around to it, there will be some major restrictions on what gets cast.


    Quote:
    Well, you can skip dice rolls if you like, but then you are disrespecting the "numbers" titan and stopping "fate" to change the dice on its favor, etc... and also you would affect a few other caster classes as well! :o


    I've already skipped almost all damage rolls. As far as I am concerned, the less die rolling, the better. I'll stick with pure math as much as I can.

    OKAY, Good talk. It's time, however, to get to the problem at hand.

    _________________
    Toma RPG: Erfworld - Rules and Discussion

    I'm making an Erfworld RPG, feel free to join in and add to the discussion. 

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:39 pm 
    User avatar
    Armored Dwagon Monthly Winner This user has been published! Year of the Dwagon Supporter
    Offline
    Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:14 pm
    Posts: 591
    Problem: Swarm rules and implementing them to speed combat among differently sized units.

    Suggestion: Use MoM rules.

    Lets go over what I got as an idea so far.

    Tiny units have to gather in groups of 10 when fighting larger units. Swarm counts as a single enemy that does 1 damage.

    Small sized enemies can't swarm humans, there needs to be more of a size difference. Lets go over my basic idea for the different sizes.

    Small
    vs small: Combat as normal.
    vs medium: Combat as normal. Small can be slammed (see slam rules).
    vs large: a successful attack insta crits small unit.
    vs huge: A successful attack counts as a multi crit. Swarm tactics are back in play.
    vs massive: A successful attack counts as multi crit *2?

    Okay, I'm working on swarms so lets say you can swarm at 3 size levels of difference. Now, how do we incorporate MoM rules into this? First off let's make comparisons.

    Swords = damage
    Shields = defense
    hearts = hits
    resistance = n/a

    Given that I like avoiding dice rolls for damage, I will delete the 30% chance of a hit or block, and say that it is 100% chance

    Counter attacks are useful, so lets say that when swarms are grouped like this, it becomes really hard for anyone to be undamaged, when both sides are attacking each other.

    Slam: Awhile ago, I came up with the concept of a slam attack, which is the idea that a unit does an all in attack, which the target can either attack back, which gives him a free hit, or try to dodge, which would allow him to get out of the way (dodge bonus revered to a penalty on defense, as it is difficult to avoid someone that is several times larger than yourself, unless you were already on the defensive). After doing a slam, unit can't do anything so opposing units get a free hit. The restriction on doing this is that you must be at least one size larger than the target.
    Example: Bogroll attacking Ansom was a slam attack.

    With this in mind, I rule that counter attack swarm damage comes before the blow from the huge.
    Huge and small units auto hit each other.

    Small units tend to not do damage to heavies, but 10 can do 1 damage.

    Swarm does 1 damage to huge.

    Huge can do 10 damage (10 swords)
    There are 10 units that can all be auto critted (10 units with 1 heart each)
    Small units have 1 defence (1 shield).

    Eliminating chance and sticking with pure math we get this.

    10 swords (damage)- 1 shield (defense)- 1 heart (hit) = 1 dead unit
    08 swords - 1 shield - 1 heart = 2 dead units
    06 swords - 1 shield - 1 heart = 3 dead units
    04 swords - 1 shield - 1 heart = 4 dead units
    02 swords - 1 shield - 1 heart = 5 dead units
    00 swords = 5 dead small units out of 10 (huge: 35/36 hits).

    This number can be modified by stat values. If small units have some bonuses that pushes them up to 5 combat (3 damage -2 DR = 1) and 5 defense, then the ten of them could do 10 damage and only 2 would be dead. Maybe put a cap on the amount of damage a swarm can do as well. If I put a cap of 10 then the 36 hits that a huge units has becomes about the same as the 3 hits a small has when being swarmed by tinies (1 damage).

    If a small attacks a massive, then halve defense (round down). Massive unit could kill 15 small units. In theory. Since swarms are in groups of ten, it should cap at 10, probably.

    Tinies would work slightly different.

    10 tinies can swarm a small, but lets say that a small can only kill 1-2 at a time.

    Tiny
    vs tiny: normal combat
    vs small: swarm treated as a single opponent in normal combat. Damage cap of 1-2.
    vs medium: Swarm rules. Can kill multiples by overcoming defense.
    vs large: 1/2 defense to tinies. Large can't be damaged.
    vs huge: 0 defense, huge can kill as many tinies as he has damage points, regardless of tiny's stats.
    vs massive: Double damage? combat is 15, can kill 30 in a swipe?

    Okay, I think this has a fairly solid foundation to build on, it shows off the tremendous advantage size plays, and it really speeds up combat.

    Issues:

    -What if swarm is trying to avoid being hit, instead of blindly attacking? I guess it should go in the pairing phase. ANSWER: They can't change to defense unless "outnumbered". This would never happen. In the case of there being two targets for a swarm, one member of the swarm breaks off to fight second enemy, while the rest concentrates on their chosen target.
    -Long reach melee units. Would probably be less able to damage units crawling up their legs. ANSWER: Make a short reach combat penalty*2.
    -Unarmed units. You could kill one rat by hand, but hitting multiple ones? No.

    Other:
    -Still need to work on defensive fighting.
    -Stat swapping. Maybe increase DR by 1?
    -Knights can't be popped, only promoted. The cost of promoting a knight is one of the big reasons why there are so few of them.

    _________________
    Toma RPG: Erfworld - Rules and Discussion

    I'm making an Erfworld RPG, feel free to join in and add to the discussion. 


    Last edited by TomaO2 on Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:24 pm 
    User avatar
    Armored Dwagon Monthly Winner This user has been published! Year of the Dwagon Supporter
    Offline
    Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:14 pm
    Posts: 591
    Spent the past while making more tweeks in my infantry pages. I changed some sections into subsections, improved the presentation, and clarified some stuff.

    Most importantly, I've refined the swarm rules a bit more. I've included small and medium sized units as well.

    After a lot of thought, I've decided that the best way to handle the higher damage output of med/sml units is to just lower it. Now, when there is a difference of 3 sizes between units, damage cap is lowered to 3.

    Standard damage reduction for a heavy is 2, so this means that a typical unit does, at best, 1 point of damage. Make a swarm of ten turns it unto 10 points, and you have basically the same situation of a medium to a massive (human vs megawiff). Units with the power strike special still get the +1 vs heavies bonus that is not affected by damage cap, which means they can do double damage.

    If the swarm is on the defensive, then add size modifier to roll, and they can just dodge. I might change that to add size modifier to defense as something that needs to be overcome to kill enemy units as well.

    A valid tactic one might want to use is to go defense during turns when a heavy can attack, to gain the dodge bonus. I like the idea, and wanted to use it but incorporating it into the system like that feels a unbalanced.

    I think I'll make this only a valid move when outnumbered. Slam attacks will be an exception, as any unit can try to avoid it, but dodge bonus is inverted unless unit was already on defense before heavy decided to use slam.

    Likewise, there is the issue of fighting multiple opponents. It could be beneficial to attack someone else than you are currently fighting, but if you do that, then the people you are fighting should be allowed, and you just go down a rabbit hole. Therefore, I place a restriction that you can only change targets if you have a higher initiative (or maybe just move) than anyone attacking you, which means only one unit can do this.

    All in all, I'm pretty excited with this solution. I think it achieves a decent balance. Thanks to Vendanna his suggestions.

    EDIT:

    Forgot about how Power Strike negates damage reduction. I don't think that works for me. Changing Power Strike so that it only negates DR if units are within two size categories of unit with special, but damage bonus remains.

    Making official actions

    Retreat: Scout only; If a unit has a move that is equal to or higher than the unit he is fighting, he may retreat. If the enemy he is fighting has a melee reach of 10' then he can get one free attack before unit is out of range. Ranged units will not follow, but will continue ranged fire until unit is not visible or out of the first range increment. Shield may not be used while retreating. If there are nearby enemies left opponent will randomly pick one of them to attack instead. If there are no other enemies, then remaining enemy units will attempt to follow.

    Full defense: Scout only; outnumbered only; When being attacked, unit can go into full defense mode. Can defend against 2 units without being outnumbered.

    Target shift: Scout only; outnumbered only; Must be outnumbered; only available to scouts; individual initiative must be higher than those that are attacking; may not change targets until the second combat round. When being attacked by multiple units, unit may change from the person he is currently attacking to another unit.

    Readied Attack: Scout only; Readied attacks are considered a defensive move and are only available to melee units. This is also only available if the units are in the "prepared" state. The requirements are to have a longer reach melee weapon than the target (minimum 10', which means only pikers can do this). Readied actions take place during the initiative round.

    *Scout only: Can also include orders given by a warlord.

    Instead of announcing at the start of a combat round, you announce at the end of the combat round, and it takes effect next round. NEW RULES IMPLEMENTED TO INFANTRY.

    Slam attack, and bullrush, can be announced during a round.

    That makes six actions, aside from just attacking.

    I've also added a rule that ranged units can attack a unit they are not paired with, as long as they are not under attack. Crits, draws, glancing blows.

    I think that covers all the special actions that can happen during a fight...


    Stat Swap Bonuses

    * Combat: can be increased/decreased by 50% (round up, minimum 2). This will cause the opposite to happen to defense.
    **Increasing combat increases damage cap by 50%
    **Decreasing combat lowers damage cap by 50%.

    * Defence can be increased/decreased by 50% (round up, minimum 2). This will cause the opposite to happen to combat.
    ** Increasing defense allows unit to fight 2 enemies without being outnumbered.
    ** Decreasing defense doubles penalty for being outnumbered. Cannot use full defense option.

    * Hits can be increased/decreased by 25% (round up, minimum 1). This will cause the opposite to happen to move.
    ** Increasing hits gives +1 to DR (if light, DR only takes effect if damage is 2 or more).
    ** Decreasing hits means -1 to DR (if heavy, 1 damage is still treated as 0 but 2, or more, damage is not reduced; if light, units becomes incapacitated at 1 hit; if he does not fall to 0, however, unit will recover next turn).

    * Move can be increased decreased by 25% (round up, minimum 1) This will cause the opposite to happen to hits.
    ** Increasing move will give a +2 to dodge.
    ** Decreasing move will give a -2 to dodge.

    Tiny units may not alter stats. Small units may not increase move/hits.

    Units that have taken the multi-unit special may not alter stats.

    A new concept I just came up with is variable damage affecting DR. If a heavy has DR 0 I still don't like the idea of them just taking damage, so I change it so that 1 damage counts as 0 but two damage counts as 2. I can then apply this to light units, with 1 damage doing 1, but two damage doing only 1, because of dr, because I don't like the idea of them avoiding all damage altogether, since they are light.



    Okay, let me go over problems I listed in this forum so far.

    -Scout redesign? Done.
    -Swarm rules? Done.
    -Size preferences when targeting? Done, but I think I need to write it down properly.
    -Defensive fighting? Done. You can do it, but you have to announce at the end of a combat round, and it takes effect at the start of the new one. You also must be outnumbered, and be a scout.
    -Stat swap bonuses. Done?

    Looking through Advanced infantry. I think I got all the important parts? Is page essentially done?

    _________________
    Toma RPG: Erfworld - Rules and Discussion

    I'm making an Erfworld RPG, feel free to join in and add to the discussion. 

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:13 am 
    User avatar
    Armored Dwagon Monthly Winner This user has been published! Year of the Dwagon Supporter
    Offline
    Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:14 pm
    Posts: 591
    Done-ish.

    https://rpg.erfworld.com/Toma_RPG:_Advanced_Infantry

    I think I can label this as a rough draft. It's got all the information I think is relevant for fighting between different sized infantry units.

    If anyone would like to look this over and review, I'd appreciate it. I'm sure I could make the presentation better, and I could add a few more examples fights, but it's really annoying to edit them later on as I come up with new ideas, and I have done this several times.

    Like, I've decided that I'm making heavy damage equal combat -1 instead of being equal to combat. I feel like damage is just a tad too high for heavies.

    I also came up with a new way to do damage reduction. I'm dividing it into two abilities, one is damage ignore, which says that any time you get damaged for exactly 1 hit, it is ignored. Then the second is damage deduction, which reduces damage by X amount, but you need to suffer 2 hits for it to take effect.

    This way I can give light units DR, because they still take a minimum of 1 damage per hit. So it's a way of increasing survivability without being able to negate being hit, and for heavies, even if they make DR 0, they can still avoid being damaged by attacks that only do 1 hit.

    Right now, I'm thinking going unarmoured lowers DR by 1, and I have a stat swarp option that can lower it again by 1, but I didn't like the idea that they can be damaged too easily, so this seems like a good half measure. No damage if it's one hit, but full damage if it's 2, or more.

    However, the real trial was trying to make a sense of scope when fighting different sized enemies. Oh, it's easy enough to have a bigger unit do more damage and have more hit points, but that doesn't really convey what I wanted. The swarm rules I came up with, I feel play this up much better. Now for every size category of change, there is an increasing advantage.

    Same sized units can be auto defeated when outnumbered
    +1 size units can be outnumbered but never auto defeated.
    +2 size units don't suffer stat penalties for being outnumbered by the smaller units, and automatically crits them when he hits, no matter how low his current damage is.
    +3 sized units can now do multi-crit hits; smaller units have damage cap dropped to 3. Since normal heavies have a damage cap of 2, that means they only do 1 hit per successful attack, so you have to go with swarm tactics to do damage again.

    I think that really shows the size dynamic. I think that this is the heart of the page, and the part that really needed to happen before I could move on.

    Next is working on how to fight with, and against, beasts.

    I originally started working on this before the advanced infantry page, but I thought that I should just finish off with infantry, and then move to animals, because they are fairly different. They don't suffer from auto attacks, for instance. So they got a different way of fighting. Then there is the fact that there are so many flying animals, which will have to have its own quirks in combat.

    I'm strongly considering ideas to limit infantry from flying. Right now, it seems very restricted. We got archons, those TV knights (forget the name) and warlords. Never seen a flying heavy infantry, except those winged centaurs, so I feel that I should be putting in some sort of restriction here.

    EDIT:

    After thinking about it today, I realized that the damage system for the multi crits is flawed. I didn't notice it because I was thinking low defense units, but, with multipliers, it can get really high. Potential solutions are adding all the defense stats together and divide by 10, then subtract that total from damage, then all remaining points go into killing, or put a limit of 3 defense. I could also make a rule that you go with combat, rather than damage, which would give medium units more points to kill tinies with.

    Not sure yet. The core idea is good, but I think I needed to workshop this a bit more.

    Also, I realized that I need to put a minimum damage for heavies. I'll use damage cap again. Damage maximum cap and damage minimum cap. If the rule is that a unit auto-croaks an enemy that is two sizes smaller, that means large units insta-kill marbits, so minimum damage is 3, and so on.

    _________________
    Toma RPG: Erfworld - Rules and Discussion

    I'm making an Erfworld RPG, feel free to join in and add to the discussion. 

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:38 pm 
    User avatar
    Armored Dwagon Monthly Winner This user has been published! Year of the Dwagon Supporter
    Offline
    Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:14 pm
    Posts: 591
    I'm nearing completion of the beast section. There isn't all that much more that needs to be added.

    Oh, also to restate. One tweak I recently made is I included minimum damage totals for the larger units. If I say a large unit can crit a small one automatically, then he should be able to do AT LEAST enough damage in a normal hit to manage this.

    Beast Differences/ New Information:

    Stats- After looking at the different beast types, I've noted that very few of them do ranged attacks. I mean, there were some plants in book 0 that did projectiles, and... That's about it. Dwagons don't count, those are breath attack specials. I'm talking a normal ranged attack. I also looked around in the real world and noted that humans are unique in their ability to throw, the closest to us are monkeys and they don't have the balance to do real damage, which is why all they throw is poop.

    Therefore, I've decided that all animals are short reach melee, with exceptions being attributed to specials.

    Fliers- Fliers get high mobility, but I had to weaken them to balance that out. They are considered naturally unarmoured, and have the short reach combat penalty that infantry have, along with having a smaller hit point total. I also dropped the cleave special (lets you make a second attack if you kill target in that round), and said that flying lowers defense vs ranged fire by 1/2, just so that projectiles are a harder counter to flying.

    There is a quick mention of infantry being fliers, but I'm keeping that seperate for now. Flying infantry are rare, and I've never seen a flying heavy infantry. So, just leave it to GM discretion.


    Capture- Ambushes have to be the bread and butter of predator beasts. I fixed up the slam rules. If you hit a successful slam, you can capture next turn. I figure a combat with a flier would be an ambush slam, then initiative round flier attempts to capture, and then flies away with prey at the start of normal combat.

    Level bonus- Giving the option to put all level bonuses into move, to help get it up to 50+ move that we hear about.

    Fighting- giving readied actions new utility. Since a land infantry can't attack a flier until it gets close enough, I rule that even a normal piker can use a readied action because they are forced to wait, and can't blindly charge from the auto attack.

    I also worked out the number of passengers a mount can carry, and mounted combat rules. Reach becomes important when riding on a mount.

    Quote:
    Mounted Combat: The combination of an infantry riding a mount has long been considered the ideal when going into combat. When they get into combat range, both can attack enemies with no penalties. A riding infantry with a 5' reach can generally hit any enemy a large mount is currently facing. It also is difficult for unmounted enemies with a 5' reach to hit back. Assume they hit the mount instead. Units with a 10' reach can attempt to target instead, but it is difficult, lower combat by 1/2. If enemy is also mounted on a same sized beast, however, no penalty to hit the opposing rider.

    When riding huge sized mounts, the rider needs a 10' reach in order to hit medium/small units, or enemy riders that are also on a huge mount. However, a 5' range is good enough to hit large sized units, and unmounted enemies need a 15' reach to strike the rider.

    When riding massive sized mounts, generally assume that you can't hit anything at all. The mount is so enormously massive that, even with a long reach weapon, and sitting as close to head as possible, it's simply not enough to hit whatever your mount is fighting. The best choice to ride a massive mount is a ranged infantry unit.


    That is how I currently set it up.

    Turn order- it gets a tweak to allow for capture tactics.

    Randomization- not quite done yet. Working on the fact that animals don't auto attack, but they are also not as smart as scouts. It's a bit of a balancing act. They sorta attack randomly, but they are also not going to just go out and go after the biggest target they can. So there are conditions to them doing this.


    DONE?

    I think that about covers the differences. I still need to add an example combat, and tidy up randomization, but I think I should be able to move on to Warlords soon. Not sure how that will go.

    Anyone got some thoughts as to how my beast page is shaping up?

    184

    _________________
    Toma RPG: Erfworld - Rules and Discussion

    I'm making an Erfworld RPG, feel free to join in and add to the discussion. 

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:56 am 
    User avatar
    Armored Dwagon Monthly Winner This user has been published! Year of the Dwagon Supporter
    Offline
    Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:14 pm
    Posts: 591
    Time to start brainstorming how warlord combat works. The trick here is that Warlords can direct combat, but that doesn't mean they can choose all pairings. My first idea is that warlord stacks is divided into 3 seperate segments. Front, mid, and rear liners.

    Front line is the 5' range, while mid line is the 10-15' range, long reach melee can make strikes at the front line. Rear line is a bit behind

    The front liners will randomly pair with the enemy front liners. Once front liners are paired, then the mid liners with reach will attack enemy front liners. Archers attack whomever they want.

    If enemy has more then twice the number of front liners, then the front line gets overrun, and the mid line needs to fill in the gap. If the enemy has 2 times as many troops as the front and mid lines together, then the excess units start aiming for the rear line, but can't attack this turn.

    Next turn, if the mid/front lines are still being overwhelmed by over double the number, then the excess units attack the rear line.

    I suppose that the front and mid lines could be said to be screening for the rear.

    That's my first idea for this.

    I've decided that scout will remain as a prerequisite to getting commander special.

    Therefore I'm giving warlords scout, command, leadership, purse, and advanced initiative as his 5 specials. Initiative can be traded for a different one and purse is what you need in order to claim cities.

    Canon examples:

    Scarlet and fud the heavy hob gob knight vs warlord and 5 stabbers

    Both Warlords are at the rear line of their stacks. Fud is a heavy and can hold off 12 hp of stabbers. This means that 3 stabbers =1 fud. Double that makes 24 hp and only 20 hp for stabbers. Fud can hold them off.

    Artemis and 12 knights vs. 6 dwagons and a heavy hob knight.

    Artemis has initiative, and uses her rounds to attack 4 dwagons, whom are all killed. Remaining 2 dwagons and hob attack the frontline knights that are now back in position. There are also arrows flying at her. Artemis is on the rear line and can't use a knight to screen for those shots.

    Scarlet has 5 dwagons, one of which she is mounted upon. Scarlett Artemis is on the back line. Her mount can't screen for her because knight is attacking it. Artemis gets a clear shot.

    Rule you can fire an archery shot if all units surrounding warlord are engaged?
    https://archives.erfworld.com/Book%202/147

    _________________
    Toma RPG: Erfworld - Rules and Discussion

    I'm making an Erfworld RPG, feel free to join in and add to the discussion. 

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:40 am 
    User avatar
    Armored Dwagon Monthly Winner This user has been published! Year of the Dwagon Supporter
    Offline
    Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:14 pm
    Posts: 591
    My new page is coming along better than I had ever imagined.

    I've taken the concept I came up with for lines of combat, and streamlined it. I think this is looking really good now.

    https://rpg.erfworld.com/Toma_RPG:_Warlords

    I think this is mostly done.

    I've nailed down screening rules, I've set up an order of combat for warlord stacks, I've settled on what are the advantages of being in a tribe, and added in my rules for PCs.

    I've basically done it.

    I can polish everything more, balance it, and all but... I've basically done it. I really thought that I'd have more problems than I have had. Ever since I nailed down the basic combat rules, things have been going at an amazing pace. I've done 3 full chapters now. Advanced infantry, beasts, and warlords. None are as long as my first two chapters, unit creation and infantry, but I needed to cover a lot more for those two.

    Next up is mass combat rules. This is where I'm going to add in my final stat, upkeep, which serves as the supply cap for making an army.

    I also came up with a rule that knights can't be popped, only promoted. I'll make it a rule that you can only pop 1 knight per basic unit stack. This gives a lot of incentive to use basic units instead of just the stronger ones.

    Feel free to check stuff out and point out any issues with the rules so far.

    359

    _________________
    Toma RPG: Erfworld - Rules and Discussion

    I'm making an Erfworld RPG, feel free to join in and add to the discussion. 

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:44 am 
    User avatar
    Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Shiny Red Star Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter This user has been published! Won Mine4erf for the Gobwins Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day This user is a Tool! Mined 4 Erf Diamonds Suit Pip
    Offline
    Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 8:29 pm
    Posts: 2306
    Running some mock battles on behalf of willing players would most likely help :)

    Let players choose up to 8 units perhaps? And edit them according to your rules, to be pitted against each other (by you as DM)? :D

    _________________

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:13 pm 
    User avatar
    Armored Dwagon Monthly Winner This user has been published! Year of the Dwagon Supporter
    Offline
    Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:14 pm
    Posts: 591
    Army creation will be handled in mass combat, which is the next chapter.

    That said, I have made at least one battle for each of the first 4 chapters. Have you read the rules? I agree that examples are important, which is why I did multiple tests. The warlord example is especially interesting to me, because I used it to simulate an actual canon battle from book 2. Scarlet and Hob vs warlord and 5 stabbers.

    To give a summary of what a player battle would be like, army creation is based on upkeep, not pure numbers. The goal is to try and reasonably balance all the different kinds of units and give a lot of variety. It would be a bit unfair if you had 8 megawiffs (800*8= 6,400$ upkeep) vs. 8 marbit axemen (5*8=40$ upkeep),

    With upkeep, it would be more like 1 megawiff (800$ upkeep) vs 5 marbit warlords (20*5= 100$ upkeep), 40 marbit spearmen (5*40= 200$ upkeep) and 100 marbit crossbowmen (5*100=500$) upkeep. Both the megawiff and the marbits now have a supply cap of 800$.

    I'm not actually sure who wins this. That's a lot of marbits, and they have warlords, but the extreme size difference makes marbits limit damage to a max of 2 points, according to current rules, and level 1 warlords would only give a +1 to combat, while spear/crossbowmen have a combat of 1, making a total combat of 2, which does a grand total of 1 damage per attack, which is absorbed by maga's damage resistance, so you need 10 seperate attacks to do 1 point of damage reliably, which means 100 crossbows can do 10 damage per round, and megawiff has 75 hits, and he can kill marbits MUCH more efficiently. In order to pick up the damage, warlords need to stack up, but to get the best stack bonus, you can only have 8 units, so only 40 of the 145 marbits can do actual damage.

    However, if there is a chief warlord bonus of +2, then a marbit would have a base combat of 3 and could do 2 damage on their own. I think marbits could win without a big issue with this advantage.

    And this just just assuming that is what is picked. Since the players don't know what the enemy composition is beforehand, you are just guessing on what might work best. Maybe player#1 would go with a megawiff, but he might go with a gwiffen/warlord/knight combo of rider mounts. Maybe they will just pick a standard stabber army instead. The variety that I'm allowing here is much more vast than any game before this point, because I have created a full mechanism for creating your own units.

    Players get the premade standard units, which are the humans. These include stabbers (7$) , knights (20$; promotion only, may only promote 1 stabber per 6? Note: not sure about if I should artificially limit knight numbers or not), warlords (40$ upkeep), etc.

    Then players are also required to build 6 ranks worth of special units (might limit this). These can be just about anything within the rules. You can make bats (2$ upkeep), sourmanders (40$ upkeep), orlies (10$ upkeep) and most of the erfworld units that you've seen that don't rely on juice or wierd mechanics (like gwiffens that envelop heads to choke). Tribes are currently off limits, but adding them would give even more unit variety.

    You could build a Gobwin Knob army by doing twolls (rank 1; 40$ upkeep), spidews (rank 2; 80$ upkeep), and dwagons (rank 3; 300$ upkeep), which make up 6 ranks altogether, and those can join in on the standard human units.

    Then you get a supply cap. To keep it small, I could say 100$ supply cap, which would mean that the biggest units would be off limits. Then you can take the units you have access to, and decide what you want to use for the battle. Players can know what special units the other can create, but not what the specific army is beforehand.

    If the game became more developed then stuff like being able to capture enemy cities and be able to use their special units yourself would be a possibility, as is searching to ally with tribes, and onward.

    Anyway, if you are really interested playing a battle, why not look at the unit creator and make your own units to start things out? I'd have to make a new thread for an actual game though, right?

    Okay, for a potential game, I would want it to be small scale and simple.

    Ranks of unique units allowed: max 2 ranks to start.
    Sizes allowed: small to large
    Army cap: 120$ upkeep
    Chief Warlord bonus: Both sides have a +1 bonus.
    Levels: all units are level 1.

    Players will be allowed standard human units for a fight, plus 2 ranks of unique units that only your side can produce. If a game happened, um, let's say, cap will be 120 upkeep. Enough for 1 warlord (40$), and 1 (rank 2) heavy (80$), or 1 warlord (40$), 10 stabbers (7*10= 70$), and a small (rank 1) flier (10$)

    How does that sound as a test game for my rules?

    _________________
    Toma RPG: Erfworld - Rules and Discussion

    I'm making an Erfworld RPG, feel free to join in and add to the discussion. 

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:01 am 
    User avatar
    Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Shiny Red Star Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter This user has been published! Won Mine4erf for the Gobwins Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day This user is a Tool! Mined 4 Erf Diamonds Suit Pip
    Offline
    Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 8:29 pm
    Posts: 2306
    Sounds good enough

    :) Ppl get excited when you say "here is the system! Create an army with X upkeep to do battle and I'll randomly pair ppl up on a grand deadmatch championship!" :D

    Are you saying that with those upkeep values? If so, yes! please do create a new thread with the announcement! :D

    Quote:
    not sure about if I should artificially limit knight numbers or not
    in general artificially limiting stuff is a no-no, feels like poor player experience to the players. If you meta-want to limit the number of knights there should be a in-mechanics reason to

    What's your meta-reason to wanting to limit knights?

    _________________

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
    Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
     
    Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 71 posts ] 

    Board index » Your Things » Your Games


    Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

     
     

     
    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot post attachments in this forum

    Search for:
    Jump to: