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 Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 118
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:50 am 
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Arky wrote:
I see it but I don't believe it.

Just waiting for the swerve here. This doesn't make a lot of sense. I mean, I figured Parson would make the offer but it's still dumb. I can't see how it was his Duty or intelligent to make that offer for GK, and the situation with his loyalty is messed up.

Ooh, wait, swerve idea - go through portal as Charlescomm unit. Then turn back. Then get shot, earning money for GK. Then stagger back for healing.

That would make sense.


This involves OOC knowledge, and the brave assumption that it's possible to survive being machine-gunned. Isn't it more parsimonious that he just figured he was less valuable than a whole lot of cities and top units? I mean, he may be the Perfect Warlord, but GK has other warlords. They aren't all idiots, and they've learnt some of what he has to teach. He could just figure (rightly or wrongly) that he doesn't add all that much to the side any more. Without him, GK is still fifteen cities bolstered by two Arkentools, and tougher than any known side except CC: an excellent strategic position. Without the others, Charlie has a small army of decrypted and probably at least one tamed dwagon, and may be able to use them to break the Hammer and Pliers, which would leave GK basically where it was shortly before TBfGK, but with no volcano to save them this time and minus two casters and the dwagons. Erfworld isn't a two-player zero-sum game; doing what Charlie wants isn't the same thing as screwing GK over.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 118
     Post Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:55 am 
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    The Hamstard is gone, Parson's signamancy is 100% Charlescomm. If he'd been able to take Jack up on his request his signamancy would be Stanley's star and if he gets decrypted his signamancy will be the flower and the skull... Yup... I'd say Parson just lost... :(

    I don't think Parson was saying something hard hearted to Wanda (not saying he likes her, but after pgs 108-109 he doesn't hate her), more fearful at just how much devastation she can (and probably will) wreak on everyone and herself most of all.

    I get the feeling Marie isn't being literally serious with her threat (she's absolutely serious though) but rather is 'cheating for Fate' right now in making it so Parson's Duty to Charlescomm prevents him from stepping through the portal.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 118
     Post Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:56 am 
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    Squall83 wrote:
    Also I wonder: Does he love Charlie now, now that he's connected to him via the dish? Afaik we don't know yet how male CC units feel about him.

    Charle only uses archons and golems. I presume this is because golems are non-sentient and archons are the only unit type he can easily connect to the Arkendish and make love him, and therefore limit Fate's ability to make his own units betray him. Male archons might be possible. Vinny technically said Goyles and Archons are mostly female. I assume any such archons would love him in the same way as Wanda's units love her.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 118
     Post Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:57 am 
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    The big question for me is: Did Parson ever game out a Deep Cover scenario?

    If the Grand Strategy is to defeat CharlesComm, this is actually a very reasonable move on Parson's part. If Charlie takes Gobwin Knob (the source of their gems) plus two other cities as well as Maggie - who is critical to all of their links - he could build up a buffer nation (say, Faq) between Stanley's current capital of Spacerock and CharlesComm. Assuming Stanley doesn't disband him on the spot, Parson is still left with a distant opponent whom he suspects is powerful enough to defeat the rest of Erfworld.

    The other choice is to infiltrate CharlesComm and hope that there is a way back. Parson will soon know far more than he could have ever found out otherwise about CharlesComm and Charlie himself.

    Sometimes you gotta gamble.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 118
     Post Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:01 am 
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    Why can Parson see GK's veiled units? Or can't he, he's just talking in the general direction of Jack?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 118
     Post Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:04 am 
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    Arky wrote:
    I see it but I don't believe it.

    Just waiting for the swerve here. This doesn't make a lot of sense. I mean, I figured Parson would make the offer but it's still dumb. I can't see how it was his Duty or intelligent to make that offer for GK, and the situation with his loyalty is messed up.


    I think the missing piece of the puzzle here is that Parson doesn't really see himself as the best thing to happen to Gobwin Knob since finding the Arkenhammer. To him, he's not some messiah sent from another world to save Erfworld, or the most crucial unit to Gobwin Knob's success - he's just some dude trying to stay alive and keep everyone he knows alive.

    When he runs the numbers in his head, he probably thinks that his ability to think laterally doesn't equal the ability to lead battles personally or flay enemies with one's mind. He's not suicidal, but he doesn't hold the value of his own life above any other - it's why he personally led the charge for Spacerock.

    Simply put, he won't command anyone to do anything he isn't willing to do himself.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 118
     Post Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:16 am 
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    Compare panel 1 with panels 4 and 5 here.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 118
     Post Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:16 am 
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    thatfrood wrote:
    Why can Parson see GK's veiled units? Or can't he, he's just talking in the general direction of Jack?

    Foolamancers can filter who sees what. I assume Jack is simply continuing to allow Parson to see them in spite of his side change.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 118
     Post Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:24 am 
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    I knew it!

    So now, Parson all has to do is some damage to GK units in order to empty CCs treasury...

    And I like the stitches on his eyebrow - whoever did that.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 118
     Post Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:24 am 
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    (Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, too tired to read through all the posts tonight)
    So why can't Parson just attack GK as a Charlescomm unit now? Turned units have low loyalty and he could easily inflict enough material harm to make GK rich as hell, maybe even enough to have himself auto-magically turned back to GK. Not to mention what Lilith could pull off if she gets them firing.

    I love Parson's new signamancy, but I don't think it will last long. There are still cards on the table, and the fat lady has not sung yet.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 118
     Post Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:32 am 
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    thatfrood wrote:
    Why can Parson see GK's veiled units? Or can't he, he's just talking in the general direction of Jack?


    I was thinking about that. It might be because he was consciously included in the list of people allowed to see through it when it was cast. Or maybe it was just because his brain saw the Boatmobile illusion when it was cast, it knows what to see.

    In many computer games, when you drop out of party with stealthed adversaries, you see them fade out as you leave party.

    Also- Parson isn't bleeding anymore and has some eyebrow bandages. Maybe small bandages are part of major Signamancy swaps.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 118
     Post Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:34 am 
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    CrazyIvan1745 wrote:
    (Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, too tired to read through all the posts tonight)
    So why can't Parson just attack GK as a Charlescomm unit now? Turned units have low loyalty and he could easily inflict enough material harm to make GK rich as hell, maybe even enough to have himself auto-magically turned back to GK. Not to mention what Lilith could pull off if she gets them firing.

    We have no idea what was parleyed, loyalty may be low but there is still compulsion, and if Parson tried to pull anything like that, Charlie could easily disband him.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 118
     Post Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:39 am 
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    As for Wanda, Parson is probably thinking over what he lost and taking stock of GK.

    We've got Wanda, who repeatedly won't do her part of the Plan. Spacerock? Multiple stuff. "Take the shot on Charlie if you can." Won't do it, actively incapacitates those who will.

    The problem with Fate is, who knows, maybe taking out Charlie would be disastrous for the world, and in her own Erfy way, Wanda has been helping.

    Maggie has problems with this too, not following simple things like promoting someone on the scene to Chief Warlord for reasons.

    Jack and Sizemore are pretty decent about getting the job done even if they don't love it. Is it a female thing in Erfworld? Jillian has major disobedience problems. So did Olive Branch. Actually Jack's improvisation on the Tower wandered off message.

    If Erfworld is a game, maybe this is one of those mid game plot twists where you have to rebuild from a new perspective. Maybe he'll find out more about Charlie. Maybe he'll just spend a lot of time in a cell. Maybe he'll be given some completely different world war to solve on the other side of the planet Charlie is waging. Maybe he'll get frozen in Carbonite and we'll get a 2,000 turn timeskip.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 118
     Post Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:41 am 
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    I see only a few possibilities for Charlie's position regarding Parson
    1. He wants to keep Parson and the shoot on sight was before Parson turned.
    2. He wants to keep Parson and has not been able to relay to relay the cancelation of the shoot on sight order yet that order yet.
    3. He does not want to keep Parson and the shoot on sight order was before Parson turned.
    4. He does not want to keep Parson and has not been able to relay the cancelation of the shoot on sight order yet.
    5. He does not want to keep Parson and can not disband him.

    What we know, only once has anyone tried to disband Parson, it failed. It was believed it failed, because Parson ordered him not to and "it was what was best for the side."

    We also know Stanley was surprised at this.

    Because of Transylvito we know that rebellions can occur and thus disbanding orders can be resisted. Either by going barbarian or by duty to the side.

    So we are not clear whether Stupidworlders are immune to disbanding.

    We can also imagine that "Stand down" is a simple enough order that a ruler could give it without thinkamancy.

    We are not sure whether "We are expecting your boss" is, because they were made to believe it by Charlie because he was certain Parson had a hero complex. Or, it is, more likely, because, they know he is coming through as a unit of theirs.

    If Charlie wanted parson dead and could disband him, he'd be dead. (He gets nothing personal by having his archon's gun him down. He gets more from disbanding him, personal touch wise.)

    So, we have two options
    1. He wants to kill Parson and Parson can not be disbanded.
    2. He wants to Keep Parson and the order to not shoot has not been relayed yet.

    So, if we read it as that the Archon knows Parson has changed sides then Parson can not be disbanded it appears. At least most likely.

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     Post subject: Disband it all!
     Post Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:41 am 
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    I'm not sure Parson _can_ be disbanded. His body isn't made entirely of Stuff, it's probably made of matter, like Earth atoms. I doubt his whole body was translated into Stuff when he warped over. As he eats Erfworld food, some of his atoms will be replaced. But it could take years for enough of his body to be converted to apply to all of Erfworld's physics. And he still bleeds. And maybe the Special trait means it will never applied.

    Not to say he couldn't be starved or just outright executed. But I think it takes more than a thought to disband him.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 118
     Post Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:42 am 
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    wih wrote:
    EDIT: First time I've noticed the symbol on the gold triangle on Marie's hat. Looking at LIAB 37 it's a pretty distinctive shape (an Omega?). Has there been any speculation on what significance this might have?


    Hmm. Omega is used to denote the set of all possible outcomes in set notation (aka the sample space), which seems relevant for a predictamancer. Dunno if putting it in a gold triangle has any additional meaning.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 118
     Post Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:46 am 
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    I'd say the simplest reason for Parson not to start attacking GK members is that even if he didn't have loyalty to Charlie now, as soon as he started causing CC to hemorrhage money, Charlie would disband him. If working against Charlie from the inside is the plan, he's gonna have to be a lot more subtle than that.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 118
     Post Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:49 am 
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    CrazyIvan1745 wrote:
    I love Parson's new signamancy, but I don't think it will last long. There are still cards on the table, and the fat lady has not sung yet.
    Or squeezed the trigger.

    And now, a moment for the "Called It" jig. shuffles around unconvincingly Right, where were we?

    In retrospect I guess it should have been glaringly obvious to me that Marie, being officially neutral in this situation, could point her newly-acquired weapon in whatever direction she chose. Whatever she's doing, though, I don't think she intends to shoot Parson, either to incapacitate or to kill. It's still his Fate to kill Charlie, though it seems the choices made of late have made the path somewhat harder.

    Anyone else besides me ever read Ralph Ellison's Invisible Man? 'Cos that watch chain in Panel 1 is stirring up some real unpleasant associations.

    Maggie isn't visible in Panel 2, by the way; it's just the Inner Glow from the veil spell taking up most of the space where she would be if she actually were visible. Compare with Panel 3.

    And as for "Yay, I'm not dead": Clearly Parson isn't a large enough thorn in Charlie's side to make disbandment preferable over ownership. Which means - I still think - Parson's going to have a great opportunity to get a real good look at that "single point of failure" from Hvs.TCF 37...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 118
     Post Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:54 am 
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    I think something is being overlooked here in the 'why Parson doesn't switch back' question.
    Recall last comic where Lilth was almost asked to surrender, and it was said that it would have been a costly mistake.
    This implies that smaller matters such as taking a unit prisoner may equivocate material harm to a side. In that case, Turning might also be material harm.
    If this is the case then parson turning would just result in him being immediately brought back and opens the possibility of them getting a worse deal every time it happens. (depending on whether or not Parson was actually 'worth' the 500k or if charlie just cut a deal to ignore the deficit for Parson)

    So basically, when Parson said he lost, it's because he lost. There's no way for him to come back, and that look was because he'd hoped Jack would have realized it and he probably can't say anything about it.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 118
     Post Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:05 am 
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    wih wrote:
    EDIT: First time I've noticed the symbol on the gold triangle on Marie's hat. Looking at LIAB 37 it's a pretty distinctive shape (an Omega?). Has there been any speculation on what significance this might have?


    LessWrong?

    LessWrong Wiki wrote:
    A hypothetical super-intelligent being used in philosophical problems. Omega is most commonly used as the predictor in Newcomb's problem. In its role as predictor, Omega's predictions occur almost certainly.

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