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 Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 106
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 1:51 am 
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ShaneTheBrain wrote:
The Fox Force Corpses were by FAR the most valuable asset on the field, and Charlie got them back, so major objective achieved there.

He had a solid plan, trading one ~10k unit for 5,000,000 schmuckers. Given his exhaustion/confusion/bandwidth limitations, he probably didn't have a ton of cognitive energy left to think that far ahead. I think the people who like to imagine Charlie has INFINITE bandwidth have never been in a high pressure situation and don't understand how bad tunnel vision is in them. i say that as someone who has Arkendish-level access IRL, sometimes the more info you have, the more you don't have time to process it all. That or Charlie's PR that he is infinite steps ahead crit on them. He stopped the requests because it's a channeled spell and he can't do too much much else while the 'Dish is spamming requests, like order archons, or try to think about how to stop this next problem.


Seriously. Planning ahead for contingencies you expect is one thing, but when a sudden change throws all existing plans into the crapper, any improvised plans better follow the KISS principle or invite defeat in detail.

Also, on the subject of crisis tunnel vision. People die in fires because they run up to a locked glass door and can't get out. There is a chair at hand, but they can't solve the problem in a panic state.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:36 am 
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    Slayorious wrote:
    From what I understand the dish lets him send unlimited thinkagrams so it doesn't really make sense for him to stop unless that in itself is part of his plan. I don't know why Charlie would ever want to risk Parson getting his hands on guns though.

    We know the "unlimited" bit only from what others (The great minds iIrc) know about it. Which is probably about what Charlie wants them to know about it.
    Even if it does allow unlimited thinkagrams under normal circumstances, that doesn't mena such a DOS attack is considered "normal" - or that it does not cause fatigue. Charlie has to be very fatigued already at this point, and fatigued people make mistakes.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 4:49 am 
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    Once again I find it interesting how people can read the same thing and come to opposite conclusions.
    First time I read it through, I read it as the archons doing the DOS attack, however reading this alot of people seem to have read it as charlie doing it himself via Dish. Of course either of us could be right and now people have pointed it out im open to both options.

    Its just funny that if i didn't read this forum i would have lived the rest of my life firmly in the belief that it was the archons. lots of situations in life that can apply to.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 5:28 am 
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    Does the DOS visual remind anyone else of Lawnmower Man? Just curious. The whole update has a similar, panicky, feel for me.

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     Post subject: Re: Stealing objects
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 7:44 am 
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    mafeigin wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    Twofer wrote:
    I'm surprised it was allowed for the Archon to snatch the Either-net; I'd've thought stealing items from a unit counted as engagement. Might this suggest thief-type tactics, viz a Foolamancer veiling a scout and sending it to steal an opposing Warlord's magic items? This would explain why, if magic items last forever, Erfworld isn't overflowing with them: there's no point making more than a few pieces of it, for fear that an opponent will hire a Foolamancer for a turn and steal it all.

    Jack stole Olive's Chillaxe without being detected, but that might have been a feature of Foolamancy.


    Also, a swarm of decrypted Archons stole Ossomer's flying carpet in http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%202/164 .


    I assumed that Olive put the chillaxe down for a moment when she could see there was no-one nearby, and Jack veiled himself, stole it, and Fooled a replacement that she then picked up, which surely isn't an engagement. It's kind of noticeable when someone takes something you're holding; maybe Foolamancy can perfectly counter the dynamic change in weight distribution, but it's more parsimonious to suppose he waited for her to slip up, or somehow distracted her for a moment. It is his speciality, after all.

    I assume the Archons taking the carpet counted as engagement. I'd raise an eyebrow if Charlie's Archons could grab a carpet being ridden by a GK unit, making it croak of fall damage, and not trigger the penalty. I'd also be sceptical if they waited until GK sent troops into battle with a third side, then swooped down, wrestled the GK units' weapons from their grip, and took back to the air, letting the disarmed GK get slaughtered. I could see it if Lilith had dropped the Net for even a moment; items don't seem to belong to anyone when they're lying on the ground, since Lilith wasn't dinged for stealing it in the first place, but surely they're the property of whoever's carrying/using them. I mean, if a sackful of loot on your back doesn't count as property or assets, what exactly does?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 7:53 am 
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    J wrote:
    I suspect Charlie is not hooked up to the dish, yet, so this is a DDoS - each archon was independently spending juice to spam her.

    Good idea! This made me think that maybe only 1 Archon spammed her, i.e. the Archon who died.

    Noigel wrote:
    Wow, that was dirty. Wonder if this was inspired by Rob's recent battle with malignant advertisements.

    Hahaha, good one! :D

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:12 am 
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    Infidel wrote:
    Seriously. Planning ahead for contingencies you expect is one thing, but when a sudden change throws all existing plans into the crapper, any improvised plans better follow the KISS principle or invite defeat in detail.

    Also, on the subject of crisis tunnel vision. People die in fires because they run up to a locked glass door and can't get out. There is a chair at hand, but they can't solve the problem in a panic state.

    I don't know if I could live with myself for smashing down a door in a fire. What if the chair get's damaged?
    wakko wrote:
    Daethalion wrote:
    Also, remember that what binds the Archons to Charlie isn't just Charlie, it's Charlie and his command of the Arkendish. Wanda and Maggie explicitly mentioned earlier that the Dish connects to Archons in a fashion that's very similar to how Wanda's Pliers connect her to the Decrypted. So it's very unlikely that any Archon could turn from Charlie of her own will, unless they were put into a situation like Ossomer - but even that probably can't happen because Charlescomm is their native side, so there's no conflict of loyalty.

    Basically, I'm pretty sure Lilith was just trying to goad those Archons into attacking her.


    You known, Charlie does seem really paranoid about what he looks like even being mentioned. That seems a bit extreme. Sure, we have seen speculation on how it might lead to people not believing in him as much. But maybe it's more than that. Maybe there is a Prediction associated with it. That his true nature will be revealed and he will lose the Arkendish/Archons afterwards. That could explain why he is so overly cautious with it.

    Or perhaps he had revealed himself in the past (early on, when first using the Arkendish) and he lost Archon loyalty that way. Maybe his past experience has shown that them gaining any knowledge of his Signmancy will cause them to lose Loyalty. The Fox Forcers may be the exception either because they already knew what he looked like, or they've had extensive enough brain surgery that they don't/can't see it or don't/can't care about it.

    Or maybe the members of Fox Force 5 love him for who he is because Charlie is a magnificent human being, regardless of his physical short comings. Maybe their years of valued service has garnered loyalty.
    And say what you want about senile paraplegics, but they do know how to make a woman feel needed.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:26 am 
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    zeuspro wrote:
    Once again I find it interesting how people can read the same thing and come to opposite conclusions.
    First time I read it through, I read it as the archons doing the DOS attack, however reading this alot of people seem to have read it as charlie doing it himself via Dish. Of course either of us could be right and now people have pointed it out im open to both options.

    Its just funny that if i didn't read this forum i would have lived the rest of my life firmly in the belief that it was the archons. lots of situations in life that can apply to.


    Well two things. It said "Charlescomm" wanted parley and Lilith blamed Charlie for the attack. Charlie IS Charlescomm as in CC is nothing without the C-Man (PS that is my new favorite nickname for him now). Even if the archons did the attack, they have no will and are totally subservient to Charlie. He ordered the attack one way or the other. I really feel sorry for the archons.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:38 am 
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    Dammit Jimmy, look you what you made me do by pressing the blue link.

    Wait, you mean the G Man isn't the fat kid from Robot Boy?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:58 am 
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    Anomynous 167 wrote:
    Dammit Jimmy, look you what you made me do by pressing the blue link.

    Wait, you mean the G Man isn't the fat kid from Robot Boy?


    "G-man" means "government man". An old term for those "damn feds". There very well could be more than one G-Man in media and even more than one in Half-Life.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:03 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:


    I'd totally forgotten! Thanks!

    That, plus this, makes me think that maybe Charlie stole the idea from Parson, and that it wasn't Charlie ondish doing the DoS but rather a lot of Archons.
    And if that's the case it could also explain why it stopped; the Archons, unlike Charlie when ondish, probably does not have the capacity to send unlimited Thinkagrams.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:37 am 
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    Commander Jimmy wrote:
    Anomynous 167 wrote:
    Dammit Jimmy, look you what you made me do by pressing the blue link.

    Wait, you mean the G Man isn't the fat kid from Robot Boy?


    "G-man" means "government man". An old term for those "damn feds". There very well could be more than one G-Man in media and even more than one in Half-Life.

    It weirds me out so many people can cling to referring a character by a name that was never actually mentioned in game. I used to think "G-Man" was just a shorterning of Gordan "The Free man" Freeman (Kinda like how before I watched Death Note I used to think Light Yagami was L..).
    It's the same with the main character in Portal. Who is "Chell"? She has a name you know, and it's <INSERT NAME HERE>.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:13 am 
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    I believe gman was the name of him in valve hammer, or the level editor.

    Story wise, the space between floors and hallways reminds me of the raised floor and floating ceiling of server rooms. Makes it easier to add and remove cables.

    Also I thinking more that the archons were doing the parley spam. They might be able to send more than one each at a closer distance, or they can't do it while running. Similar to thinkagrams unless you're on a mount.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:35 am 
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    So Charlie is no expert at Dirtamancy. Not much of a surprise.
    Davre wrote:
    Does the DOS visual remind anyone else of Lawnmower Man? Just curious. The whole update has a similar, panicky, feel for me.

    I can get that, the lines are the same as the early 3d fish eye type perspective.
    Guynietoren wrote:
    Story wise, the space between floors and hallways reminds me of the raised floor and floating ceiling of server rooms. Makes it easier to add and remove cables.

    Those open ceilings are just the absence of the pretty cielings that are in most of a building. Server rooms don't have to look pretty, in fact it reduces the functionality as you said. If Lilith gets through the portal ordeal fine, she might fly straight up to the Dish's conection and find all the server wires.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:57 am 
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    Guynietoren wrote:
    I believe gman was the name of him in valve hammer, or the level editor.

    Story wise, the space between floors and hallways reminds me of the raised floor and floating ceiling of server rooms. Makes it easier to add and remove cables.

    Also I thinking more that the archons were doing the parley spam. They might be able to send more than one each at a closer distance, or they can't do it while running. Similar to thinkagrams unless you're on a mount.


    Something else to consider. Why was the thinkagram a request to parley? Any type of massive DOS attack via thinkagram would have had the same effect. Was there any significance to this being a request to parley? Was it required to get around the contract? Did Charlie just do it for the lullz ("I not only stopped you without aggression, I did it specifically with a means normally used to avoid aggression")?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 12:01 pm 
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    People are confusing both how a DoS attack works and what happened here. The DoS relies on getting as many computers acting in concert and maxing out their sending capacity to a website, some fancier models will repeat sending but simply sending is enough if a website can't drop them fast enough or switch fast enough. This is more like a frontal barrage spam attack, sort of like a DoS but where it's pretty clear after the initial barrage (as they became fewer and fewer) there were fewer and fewer archons to spam her. I suspect there is some mechanism within thinkagrams that actually prohibit an individual caster from cycling on/off rapidly not including juice costs.

    So we're seeing the initial attack confuse and stop her from talking further then using an archon to stop her from killing herself and ending the bargaining. At this point Charlie doesn't know that Lilith was contacted so he's under the presumption that she's still flying blind effectively. This is all playing out in a very real way, quite interesting too. :)

    PS: The only person we've seen destroyed by a portal is a ruler of a side. That's it, we've seen GK forces go through portals and Parson. It seems likely that portals are more open than we think and that the MK wants to keep that secret.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 12:31 pm 
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    Xeranar wrote:
    People are confusing both how a DoS attack works and what happened here. The DoS relies on getting as many computers acting in concert and maxing out their sending capacity to a website, some fancier models will repeat sending but simply sending is enough if a website can't drop them fast enough or switch fast enough. This is more like a frontal barrage spam attack, sort of like a DoS but where it's pretty clear after the initial barrage (as they became fewer and fewer) there were fewer and fewer archons to spam her. I suspect there is some mechanism within thinkagrams that actually prohibit an individual caster from cycling on/off rapidly not including juice costs.

    So we're seeing the initial attack confuse and stop her from talking further then using an archon to stop her from killing herself and ending the bargaining. At this point Charlie doesn't know that Lilith was contacted so he's under the presumption that she's still flying blind effectively. This is all playing out in a very real way, quite interesting too. :)

    PS: The only person we've seen destroyed by a portal is a ruler of a side. That's it, we've seen GK forces go through portals and Parson. It seems likely that portals are more open than we think and that the MK wants to keep that secret.


    Strictly speaking a DOS attack is a singular source whereas a DDOS (distributed denial of service) comes from multiple sources acting in concert.

    Given that Charlie isn't a thinkamancer we can only conclude one of two possible scenarios:

    1)The archons flooded Lilith with messages and stopped when they ran out of juice or were ordered to take other actions.

    2)Charlie flooded Lilith with messages after being hooked up to the dish (since he would have to be to thinkagram) and then stopped to do something else such as message Parson.

    My schmuckers are on the latter.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 1:08 pm 
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    Xeranar wrote:
    PS: The only person we've seen destroyed by a portal is a ruler of a side. That's it, we've seen GK forces go through portals and Parson. It seems likely that portals are more open than we think and that the MK wants to keep that secret.

    We've seen Parson (who is "special"), GK casters, and croaked bodies (which presumably count as items) pass through portals. And we've seen a single golem successfully exit, and then cause mystification to Parson and Isaac when it somehow returned. We haven't seen Artemis try to leave (which she could probably do) and then return (which she probably cannot).

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     Post subject: Re: Stealing objects
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 1:16 pm 
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    Twofer wrote:
    I could see it if Lilith had dropped the Net for even a moment; items don't seem to belong to anyone when they're lying on the ground, since Lilith wasn't dinged for stealing it in the first place, but surely they're the property of whoever's carrying/using them. I mean, if a sackful of loot on your back doesn't count as property or assets, what exactly does?

    The way I see it, the net, and its contents that they took were still CC property, so they weren't causing a breach. Once Lilith tried getting them through the portal, she'd be attempting to steal them from CC. Moving them around the place is fine.

    The problem with that is how many stupidworld laws define theft being a crime starting from the initial attempt to move something from its original location, but then Lilith should have already triggered a breach just picking them up from the armory. Our laws don't apply though, since the contract itself is deciding things like that (along with the combined intent of both sides), so who knows? Maybe theft doesn't count as harm against CC assets/property at all.

    ManaCaster wrote:
    And we've seen a single golem successfully exit.

    The toy soldier was a Doll, not a Golem. I keep wanting to call it that too, but they are different things here. :mrgreen:

    *edits* Why do people keep thinking the portal use restrictions are only for entering the MK? Was that mentioned somewhere, or is it once again from the comments when the toy soldier returned?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 1:23 pm 
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    zeuspro wrote:
    Once again I find it interesting how people can read the same thing and come to opposite conclusions.
    First time I read it through, I read it as the archons doing the DOS attack, however reading this alot of people seem to have read it as charlie doing it himself via Dish. Of course either of us could be right and now people have pointed it out im open to both options.

    It's highly unlikely that this DOS attack was initiated by the archons.
    Firstly the archons looked "inclined to [] shoot Lilith in the face" and not start an elaborate ploy to stop her from talking...
    And secondly the attack started at the exact moment when Lilith was about to reveal something to the archons that Charlie desperately didn't want them to know.

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