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 Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 106
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 4:44 pm 
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Most excellent!

First we get another of Charlie's Rules.
Then we get some clarification on engagement.
Then we get to see that a DOS attack doesn't count as material harm.
Finally, we get to see some of the structure of the tower.

Go Rob!
Go Lillith!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 106
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 4:58 pm 
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    Swiftbow wrote:
    Had a thought regarding the explosion and end of the DoS attack. If the 'Dish is transmitting the signal via the circuitry of the tower, all the damage from the bomb may be preventing him from hitting her while in that area. Or, possibly, it caused a minor EMP?


    I like that idea. Also, seeing CC ripped open, it strikes me that it looks like the internals of a computer box. Even the passageways are suspended. The exterior walls of CC might be a fortress, but this is definitely more administrative building in nature. Which as others have mentioned, makes placing a bomb in the middle seem foolhardy. Probably it indicates that fear wins over pragmatism when Charlie's skin is on the line.
    ---
    Manacaster, could you link, or at least tell me the general area that convo about the golem happened? I don't remember it at all. Thank you.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 106
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 5:11 pm 
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    victor227 wrote:
    Seems Parson's bracer was right again! Lilith now has a surprisingly good chance of making her way to the portal room and escaping, [...]


    A good chance of getting to the portal room. He didn't say anything about escaping.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 106
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 5:13 pm 
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    Infidel wrote:
    Manacaster, could you link, or at least tell me the general area that convo about the golem happened? I don't remember it at all. Thank you.

    Hvs.tCF_2 was the specific page it happened (2nd panel). Book 3 - Page 2 Comments has a bunch of discussion about the portals and the toy soldier, and more from Book 3 - Page 1 Comments too. Lots of reading to sift through.
    *edits* It was called a golem a few times in all of that, which may be the reference, though I'm sure most here wouldn't say it is the same as a dirtamancer's crap golem, since it is a doll.

    --

    If Parson was smart, he got a copy of Charlie's Rules from the GK archons long ago, and has already thought up his own counters to many. I wouldn't be surprised if this was something taught to all of GK's units lately, since he should at least know some of their basic strategy from the rules archons go by all the time. Specific tactics, no, but he can guess fairly reliably what goals they would have in different situations.

    Lilith hasn't been to GK since before the CC war started, so she's still making up her own additions. :mrgreen:

    Charlie would also know this, and could have redone them all...

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    Last edited by Gorgon on Mon Nov 09, 2015 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 106
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 5:18 pm 
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    I really like how Rob time and again manages to surprise me/us despite the amount of discussion/speculation going on here in the thread...
    It's pretty much impossible that Charlie managed to "bug" that sacrificial archon. He never expected Lilith to get away in the first place nor to stumble close to a trap.
    The most interesting thing I take away from this comic is just how afraid Charlie seems to be of his archons learning the truth about him. Apparently he thinks that there is a real chance their loyalty could waver if they know the truth - I wouldn't have expected that...
    Quote:
    Possibility: The Archon in the wires isn't dead, but has an incapacitation spell ready to be triggered on contact.

    Lilith worries if there is enough left of her for Wanda to decrypt... I think we can be pretty certain she's well and truly croaked.
    Slayorious wrote:
    Charlie would have no reason whatsoever to stop it.

    He could be out of juice or fatigued. After all he just fought a battle to invade Lilith's mind and had to hastily withdraw when Waggie showed up.

    lunar 2000 wrote:
    Being a Carnymancer we just don't know. Somehow through a G string or in the body he could have planted a bomb. Just all seems a little to fishy to have allowed the bomb to explode, leaving a fresh corpse (after taking away the others), and an escape route.

    Perhaps its a less worst case scenario to let her escape with the guns and but not the Foxers, but Charlie rarely allows for any kind situation to go bad for him. Just seems to easy.

    Even a Carnymancer can't prepare for a situation he never expected to arise. And we are certain he didn't expect itm because he never would have shown his face to Wanda or got close to the line of fire otherwise.
    Sacrificing the archon was simply his last ditch effort to avoid having to pay the penalty when he realized Lilith was heading for a trap.
    Murska wrote:
    I find it interesting that a trapped door exploding created a hole into the interior of the tower structure. It seems pretty obvious that that's a very bad thing to happen if the trap were used against an invading army, letting your enemy circumvent your defenses that way.

    Well, since any enemy at this point will very likely come from below any floors below this one are likely to be already taken, so a hole in the floor is not that much of a problem.
    Shashakiro wrote:
    While she is of course correct that damage from a trap would constitute material harm, it does not at all follow that the detonation of the bomb in Lilith's face would constitute an attempt of CC to inflict material harm on a GK unit.

    Well, the trap was installed with the purpose of causing material harm to any unit that triggers it. Up until this update I wasn't sure either if that is enough to constitute intend to harm Lilith, but apparently Charlie thinks so, too, or he wouldn't have needed to sacrifice an archon.
    3098 wrote:
    Either this is an oversight by Rob, or Charlie has a huge ace up his sleeve.

    ...or he is more desperate than anyone here seems to think he is.
    Gorgon wrote:
    Has anyone found something to confirm an archon could walk through?

    So far we can't definitely confirm it or rule it out. Charlie probably tested it at one point, so he might be the only one who does know...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 106
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 5:32 pm 
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    ardee wrote:

    What if Lilith managed to do something to that Archon, not that she was ordered by Charlie? What if Lilith's talk of him made her question her allegiance just enough that she wanted to help Lilith and take the chance on freedom?

    I just wonder why Charlie was so fixated on stopping her from revealing the truth about him. Is it possible that the lower Archons can't "love" him if they know what he really is? If they are so strongly devoted to him, why would it matter if Lilith revealed what he looked like?


    because in this universe caring about looks doesnt mean that you are shallow. everyone's hearts, or at least their usefulness to their sides, is painted on their face. if the archons learned that charlie was ugly instead of the flat out gorgeous that they assume, then the sister whispers will start to turn to what he did that is harming the side so badly and where the money is going. it might not amount to much, but charlie is a powergamer who will care about every -1

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 106
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 5:36 pm 
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    oh and also the suspended passageways are pretty good for defence. diggers cant get past the dungeon zone, and the traps make the hallways unusable except by fliers, and charlie would be the one to have an army of fliers in the garrison

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 106
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 5:56 pm 
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    What if the spam Lilith experienced wasn't even from Charlie, but from the Archons themselves wanting to know more about Charlie?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 106
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 6:33 pm 
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    conmor wrote:
    ardee wrote:

    What if Lilith managed to do something to that Archon, not that she was ordered by Charlie? What if Lilith's talk of him made her question her allegiance just enough that she wanted to help Lilith and take the chance on freedom?

    I just wonder why Charlie was so fixated on stopping her from revealing the truth about him. Is it possible that the lower Archons can't "love" him if they know what he really is? If they are so strongly devoted to him, why would it matter if Lilith revealed what he looked like?


    because in this universe caring about looks doesnt mean that you are shallow. everyone's hearts, or at least their usefulness to their sides, is painted on their face. if the archons learned that charlie was ugly instead of the flat out gorgeous that they assume, then the sister whispers will start to turn to what he did that is harming the side so badly and where the money is going. it might not amount to much, but charlie is a powergamer who will care about every -1


    Also, remember that what binds the Archons to Charlie isn't just Charlie, it's Charlie and his command of the Arkendish. Wanda and Maggie explicitly mentioned earlier that the Dish connects to Archons in a fashion that's very similar to how Wanda's Pliers connect her to the Decrypted. So it's very unlikely that any Archon could turn from Charlie of her own will, unless they were put into a situation like Ossomer - but even that probably can't happen because Charlescomm is their native side, so there's no conflict of loyalty.

    Basically, I'm pretty sure Lilith was just trying to goad those Archons into attacking her.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 106
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 6:47 pm 
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    The Archons said that Charlie would deal with the CWL of GK. I assume he can't do that while doing the DoS attack.

    With the way opened, he can't stop Lilith in the hallway, so he needs to reach Parson before she reaches the portal.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 106
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 7:03 pm 
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    Gorgon wrote:
    Links


    Thank you.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 106
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 7:33 pm 
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    lunar2000 wrote:
    Being a Carnymancer we just don't know. Somehow through a G string or in the body he could have planted a bomb. Just all seems a little to fishy to have allowed the bomb to explode, leaving a fresh corpse (after taking away the others), and an escape route.

    Perhaps its a less worst case scenario to let her escape with the guns and but not the Foxers, but Charlie rarely allows for any kind situation to go bad for him. Just seems to easy.

    What is interesting is that she was able to visibly shake one of the archons into almost attacking her. Perhaps Charlie's commands aren't quite as strong as believed. Question is if she was just saying those things to provoke an attack or to actually try to parlay/turn them.


    Well, I call myself Infidel because I never accept the obvious as true, because it is obvious. In other words, I never answer a question, "Well OBVIOUSLY...." To me the world is a shell game, so I am very distrustful of obvious answers. However, there are some extenuating circumstances here.
    Charlie is definitely winging this as much as Lilith.
    Charlie is probably low or out of juice, unless there are mana potions.

    Was Lilith trying to turn them? We had access to her thought in story, so no.

    So no, it is not fishy at all. Charlie would have been looking through the eyes of his Archons and seen Lilith stumbling towards the trap. So as a loss prevention measure, he sent an Archon to take the hit. CC has apparently never had a real attack, and Charlie does not use warlords, so his defenses are bound to have flaws where an experienced commander would know better.

    I don't think Charlie considered the tactical benefits the bomb exploding might provide Lilith. He was probably thinking, action: stop loss. structural damage incured: acceptable.
    In Go if you chase an enemy's stones, they will escape. So you have to place your stones further out to create a net that can't be avoided. I think this is a bit of that principle in action. Charlie will probably not chase Lilith directly, instead putting all his effort in blocking the portal room.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 106
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 9:01 pm 
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    I'm surprised it was allowed for the Archon to snatch the Either-net; I'd've thought stealing items from a unit counted as engagement. Might this suggest thief-type tactics, viz a Foolamancer veiling a scout and sending it to steal an opposing Warlord's magic items? This would explain why, if magic items last forever, Erfworld isn't overflowing with them: there's no point making more than a few pieces of it, for fear that an opponent will hire a Foolamancer for a turn and steal it all.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 106
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 9:45 pm 
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    Twofer wrote:
    I'm surprised it was allowed for the Archon to snatch the Either-net; I'd've thought stealing items from a unit counted as engagement. Might this suggest thief-type tactics, viz a Foolamancer veiling a scout and sending it to steal an opposing Warlord's magic items? This would explain why, if magic items last forever, Erfworld isn't overflowing with them: there's no point making more than a few pieces of it, for fear that an opponent will hire a Foolamancer for a turn and steal it all.

    Jack stole Olive's Chillaxe without being detected, but that might have been a feature of Foolamancy.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 106
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 11:35 pm 
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    Hehe hehe he ah hahaha MAHAHAHAHA AHAHAHAHAH. THE FOOLS! THE FOOLISH FOOLY FOOLS! THEY ENGAGE IN SUCH FOOLISH FOLLY! SUCH FOOLISHNESS! They did the work for her! They gave her the perfect way to get to the portal. They doomed themselves.

    Silly Charlie should have kept up the mental assault. I'm a little concerned here though. Why did he stop the requests? Is he leading her into a trap? It seems likely but to what end? They had her.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 106
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 11:45 pm 
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    The Fox Force Corpses were by FAR the most valuable asset on the field, and Charlie got them back, so major objective achieved there.

    He had a solid plan, trading one ~10k unit for 5,000,000 schmuckers. Given his exhaustion/confusion/bandwidth limitations, he probably didn't have a ton of cognitive energy left to think that far ahead. I think the people who like to imagine Charlie has INFINITE bandwidth have never been in a high pressure situation and don't understand how bad tunnel vision is in them. i say that as someone who has Arkendish-level access IRL, sometimes the more info you have, the more you don't have time to process it all. That or Charlie's PR that he is infinite steps ahead crit on them. He stopped the requests because it's a channeled spell and he can't do too much much else while the 'Dish is spamming requests, like order archons, or try to think about how to stop this next problem.

    Bloody shame about the Fox Forcers net.

    By the way, if the Great Minds wanted to start some sort of counter-spam assault now, that would be fine.

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     Post subject: Stealing objects
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 11:53 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    Twofer wrote:
    I'm surprised it was allowed for the Archon to snatch the Either-net; I'd've thought stealing items from a unit counted as engagement. Might this suggest thief-type tactics, viz a Foolamancer veiling a scout and sending it to steal an opposing Warlord's magic items? This would explain why, if magic items last forever, Erfworld isn't overflowing with them: there's no point making more than a few pieces of it, for fear that an opponent will hire a Foolamancer for a turn and steal it all.

    Jack stole Olive's Chillaxe without being detected, but that might have been a feature of Foolamancy.


    Also, a swarm of decrypted Archons stole Ossomer's flying carpet in http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%202/164 .

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 106
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 11:54 pm 
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    CTRL ESC CTRL ESC CTRL ESC ALT TAB ALT TAB ALT TAB CTRL ALT DEL CTRL ALT DEL CTRL ALT DEL TURN OFF THE WIFI TURN OFF THE WIFI TURN OFF THE WIFI MAKE IT STOP MAKE IT STOP MAKE IT STOP KILLITWITHFIREKILLITWITHFIREKILLITWITHFIREKILLITWITHFIREKILLITWITHFIREKILLITWITHFIREKILLITWITHFIRE

    *pulls the power plug*

    Oh thank God...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 12:51 am 
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    hajo4 wrote:
    Slayorious wrote:
    Love it! Lilith gets DoS'd!
    I'm under the impression that instead of Charlie it's the archon's that interrupt her.

    All those Archons have been ordered into the tower just a few minutes ago,
    so I don't think there was time to brief them about such a new, never-been-used-before tactic.

    Also, I'm wondering how many thinkamancers erfwide also got that hail,
    and what they will make of it - maybe some of them clicked "accept",
    and Charlie is now busy, talking to them ;)


    There's always the chance that Charlie was prepared for it. After all rule #1. From what I understand the dish lets him send unlimited thinkagrams so it doesn't really make sense for him to stop unless that in itself is part of his plan. I don't know why Charlie would ever want to risk Parson getting his hands on guns though.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 1:27 am 
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    Daethalion wrote:
    conmor wrote:
    ardee wrote:

    What if Lilith managed to do something to that Archon, not that she was ordered by Charlie? What if Lilith's talk of him made her question her allegiance just enough that she wanted to help Lilith and take the chance on freedom?

    I just wonder why Charlie was so fixated on stopping her from revealing the truth about him. Is it possible that the lower Archons can't "love" him if they know what he really is? If they are so strongly devoted to him, why would it matter if Lilith revealed what he looked like?


    because in this universe caring about looks doesnt mean that you are shallow. everyone's hearts, or at least their usefulness to their sides, is painted on their face. if the archons learned that charlie was ugly instead of the flat out gorgeous that they assume, then the sister whispers will start to turn to what he did that is harming the side so badly and where the money is going. it might not amount to much, but charlie is a powergamer who will care about every -1


    Also, remember that what binds the Archons to Charlie isn't just Charlie, it's Charlie and his command of the Arkendish. Wanda and Maggie explicitly mentioned earlier that the Dish connects to Archons in a fashion that's very similar to how Wanda's Pliers connect her to the Decrypted. So it's very unlikely that any Archon could turn from Charlie of her own will, unless they were put into a situation like Ossomer - but even that probably can't happen because Charlescomm is their native side, so there's no conflict of loyalty.

    Basically, I'm pretty sure Lilith was just trying to goad those Archons into attacking her.


    You known, Charlie does seem really paranoid about what he looks like even being mentioned. That seems a bit extreme. Sure, we have seen speculation on how it might lead to people not believing in him as much. But maybe it's more than that. Maybe there is a Prediction associated with it. That his true nature will be revealed and he will lose the Arkendish/Archons afterwards. That could explain why he is so overly cautious with it.

    Or perhaps he had revealed himself in the past (early on, when first using the Arkendish) and he lost Archon loyalty that way. Maybe his past experience has shown that them gaining any knowledge of his Signmancy will cause them to lose Loyalty. The Fox Forcers may be the exception either because they already knew what he looked like, or they've had extensive enough brain surgery that they don't/can't see it or don't/can't care about it.

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