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 Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:58 pm 
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0beron wrote:
An additional point of note is her croaking. By that point, JoJo's spell was already in place, and yet not even her actions caused her to croak. That was entirely Croakatoa, which would make it Parson's fault. That too is a very important lesson for him to learn from this: He cheated a Carnymancer's spell.

Yeah, and he did it without even trying. I guess Fate knew Sylvia would be decrypted, and considered a temporary death not at her own hands to be an acceptable loophole.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 3:15 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    A few people have disagreed with my theory on JoJo being wrong about Sylvia's death, so I'll just respond generally rather than making quotes.

    I acknowledge that her actions facilitated her dusting. My point is that she did not CHOOSE to die. JoJo believes his spell would require intent, but Fate was content to just use her actions even in the absence of intent.

    An additional point of note is her croaking. By that point, JoJo's spell was already in place, and yet not even her actions caused her to croak. That was entirely Croakatoa, which would make it Parson's fault. That too is a very important lesson for him to learn from this: He cheated a Carnymancer's spell.


    On a strict reading, Jojo only says that Lady Sylvia would be the end of Lady Sylvia.
    He reasoned that Lady Sylvia would kill herself intentionally, not from oversight or hubris.
    So it's more like Jojo wished for the wrong thing.

    Given the Carnymancer outlook, his statement that Fate "copped him good' makes more sense. Since the act of the hustle or scam is about exploiting a person's mistaken expectations and playing on false hopes. The fault lies with the "rube" or the "mark."

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 6:18 pm 
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    mortissimus wrote:
    I would say it looks enforced (if you change fate, fate will protect you), yet impersonal. So not a passive mechanism, and not a Titan named Fate. A mechanism with feedback perhaps? I like the rubber-band idea.

    I hope we get a continuation of this conversation.


    I go with the passive theory.

    In Erf, somebody makes a prophecy that John will die. Everybody freaks out and speaks in hushed tones about Fate.

    Then John dodges a car, smirks and rails against the heavens, spitting, "Ha! In your face! I BEAT YOU."
    But then later he gets leukemia or something. And then the deep philosophers of the day nod pensively, saying that Fate works in mysterious ways.

    There's also the observer's effect to complicate things too. By the act of prophecying John's death, the Predictamancer is influencing his future actions, which is why Predictamancers are very cagey about sharing their knowledge of the future.

    The whole thing looks more than a little absurd to me.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 6:43 pm 
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    DVL wrote:
    mortissimus wrote:
    I would say it looks enforced (if you change fate, fate will protect you), yet impersonal. So not a passive mechanism, and not a Titan named Fate. A mechanism with feedback perhaps? I like the rubber-band idea.

    I hope we get a continuation of this conversation.


    I go with the passive theory.

    In Erf, somebody makes a prophecy that John will die. Everybody freaks out and speaks in hushed tones about Fate.

    Then John dodges a car, smirks and rails against the heavens, spitting, "Ha! In your face! I BEAT YOU."
    But then later he gets leukemia or something. And then the deep philosophers of the day nod pensively, saying that Fate works in mysterious ways.

    There's also the observer's effect to complicate things too. By the act of prophecying John's death, the Predictamancer is influencing his future actions, which is why Predictamancers are very cagey about sharing their knowledge of the future.

    The whole thing looks more than a little absurd to me.



    "John will die" is a pretty lame prophecy. It would still be true if John was the last Erfworlder to die of all those alive at the time of the prophecy. But I agree with you otherwise.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 10:33 pm 
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    DVL wrote:
    There's also the observer's effect to complicate things too. By the act of prophecying John's death, the Predictamancer is influencing his future actions, which is why Predictamancers are very cagey about sharing their knowledge of the future.

    Not really accurate. Jillian recalled being told as much by Marie in Book 0. Say Marie tells Jillian she'll be ambushed on her way home. Jillian changes her path and gets ambushed. You seem to be saying that had Marie not told her, she wouldn't have been ambushed, but Marie says she would have been ambushed anyway. But that still isn't useless. Because even though you are ambushed either way, at least when you know it's coming, you can prepare for it.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 11:13 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    A few people have disagreed with my theory on JoJo being wrong about Sylvia's death, so I'll just respond generally rather than making quotes.

    I acknowledge that her actions facilitated her dusting. My point is that she did not CHOOSE to die. JoJo believes his spell would require intent, but Fate was content to just use her actions even in the absence of intent.

    An additional point of note is her croaking. By that point, JoJo's spell was already in place, and yet not even her actions caused her to croak. That was entirely Croakatoa, which would make it Parson's fault. That too is a very important lesson for him to learn from this: He cheated a Carnymancer's spell.


    I suppose, but Jojo did point out something that shows that Fate cheated him back. Sylvia was raised from the dead and made to go again and didn't truly "die" until Spacerock... (Does that mean that Fate itself considers decypted as being "alive"? I just thought of that as I typed this...) Though to slap before of us in the face, maybe Sylvia did want to die after Ansom bit it... She was really broken looking when the volcano exploded. She didn't try to join the fight or do her Duty when she was the highest level warlord left. She didn't jump in to command. If she just sat there in the volcano and waited to die, that may have been good enough for fate. It was the Coalition's turn. She could've tried to flee the hex, but it looks like she just sat there... Which means that WANDA is the one that cheated Fate by raising her. But then Jojo's spell still ensured that she died later, but Sylvia may have wanted to die when Ansom was croaked-

    See how this gets us no where? You can literally go in circles with that forever. We would have to know Sylvia's thoughts when the volcano exploded which we can't know. I think our only option is to believe Jojo's explanation until we get more information. Like we assume that Sylvia had to die, get decrypted, and go insane before she would be foolish and proud enough to get herself killed.

    Hell, maybe her holding the Pliers made her temporarily immune to Jojo's spell since it's power is Titanic. The Pliers do (semi-permanently) takes away people's choice to turn. Consent could mean nothing to it. The Tools are certainly more powerful than any one caster... but again that reasoning leads us into just a bigger circle that can't be solved until we know more about how the Tools work! It's just circles within circles of reasoning and it's just- GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 11:37 pm 
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    Hey, at least it's circles of reasoning, and not spheres. ;) Or four dimensional shapes. Those are even worse. And don't get me started on dimensions thirteen through twenty-two... :mrgreen:

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:02 am 
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    ManaCaster wrote:
    Carl wrote:
    Honestly i don't get why people keep insisting fate works via luckmancy, if that was true then luckmancers could influence fate as well and as per what we know about carnnies that isn't true. Fate undoubtedly just rigs things through it's own set of rules independent of luckmancy or mathmancy.

    Because displays of freak chance get put on display whenever Fate gets involved, and Captain Archer apparently owed a Luckamancy repayment on Sylvia's behalf. As Lipkin said, it's like a cheating GM. A Luckamancer probably could interfere, but a Luckamancer is still far more limited. A Luckamancer protects a unit Fated to die or tries to curse a unit fated to live? Fate can always manipulate a number the Luckamancer didn't think to use, get rid of the Luckamancer (like what happened to Clay when Wanda told him to curse her), or even wait until later. Also, Luckamancy isn't Fate's only tool. There are very strong indications Fate can manipulate the popping process, like how Jillian was created to help Wanda and when all those dwagons mysteriously appeared on Stanley's path to conquer Faq. And that's not even mentioning the Jester speculation, which probably allows it to influence peoples' subconscious.


    Two problems with that, though. Archer said that there was a 97% that it was luckamancy repayment, but he does say what it refers to. He took an very lucky shot to take down Artemis AND he just shot Count Downer in the back and was hit by immediate karma. It may not have been pay back for Sylvia's actions... On top of that, look at his eyes! They swirly like he's really confused and he starts saying something about Ziggy (a reference yes, but who the hell is Ziggy in the context of Erf?) while dying. He could have just been really confused and was rambling. We have to assume Ziggy isn't a device or a person who told him that and that he figured that number out using his own head... And he isn't a caster so how would he know how Luckamancy works with Jojo's spell? How would he know if Luckamancy was at all involved in the spell? He was just told by Sylvia that the spell would protect her and kill everyone else, so that may have been his last thought. That is was Jojo's spell, but, if so, that's just his assumption. And that line of logic assumes that he thought Sylvia was stealing their luck instead of the spell, say, just making Sylvia invincible. I don't remember either Sylvia or Archer putting that idea forward and I just reread the Book today and read (at least) the first page on each of the old reaction topics. And like I said, he didn't specifically say it was Sylvia that caused he luckamancy to turn.

    And here's a replacement theory for you. It could also be that Fate killed him. He was trying to shoot the Ditto of Slately which would have made switching the capital impossible. If SLATELY'S fate was to trap Parson, then he was killed by trying to interfere with THAT. And again, Luckamancy isn't Fate magic. It really shouldn't be involved with Fate's movements.


    All this just leads to another of my pet theories. Everyone talks about Fate's power, but I don't think it's the most powerful axis. It brings to mind Olive Branch's (flawed) viewpoint that she believed the element of Life to be the most important. It's not. All three elements, Motion, Matter, and Life, live in harmony and are equally powerful. If that's true, then the same should be true with the Axes. Numbers, Fate, and Erf should all be equally powerful. No one but the Casters on the Fate Axis believes in its power. Out of the casters (arguably) involved with the debate we have these disciplines: Dirtamancy, Flower Power, Luckamancy, Predictamancy, Dollamancy, Thinkamancy, Croakamancy, Carnymancy, and Foolamancy. FIVE of those nine disciplines are on the Fate Axis (Predictamancy, Dollamancy, Thinkamancy, Croakamancy, and Carnymancy). Luckamancy is on the Erf Axis. If my assumption is right then Luckamancy (that all Axes are equally powerful) shouldn't do it's work with Fate. It does it with Erf. Carnymancy shouldn't be able to work with anything besides Fate (besides the elements it uses) to do its work. If Luckamancy is Erf, then Carnymancy can't use it. There should be no crossover especially since Luckamancers don't use any of the elements to rig rolls while Carnymancers use all the elements.

    https://wiki.erfworld.com/Magic

    As a side note, though, we do know Thinkamancers can use Lookamancy and Foolamancy and that Wanda can use Thinkamancy. That may destroy my theory or support based on any number of things based on other number of other things. Like, say, Casters who are able to cast outside their discipline are restricted to spells on their vertical and horizontal column. Like a Luckamancer can only cast Clevermancy spells and Erf spells. Meaning that they can't cast any Fate magic (besides Healomancy) or Numbers magic (besides Moneymancy). That would leave the Naughtymancers kind screwed since Retconjuration is only cast-able by the Titans, but maybe anyone in Shockmancy or Croakamancy has a higher chance to have the ability to cast spells on their columns. The same could be true for Casters on the Numbers Axis (which fits with the theory that Benny can cast Rhyme-o-mancy spells). That would explain why Wanda can manage many more disciplines (unless that is due to her ability to attune). There's a lot to consider. Maybe you guys are right and there's just a lot of overlap every where, but I think it's too early to make that assumption.


    Let's hear what else Jojo has to say about the subject.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:10 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    DVL wrote:
    There's also the observer's effect to complicate things too. By the act of prophecying John's death, the Predictamancer is influencing his future actions, which is why Predictamancers are very cagey about sharing their knowledge of the future.

    Not really accurate. Jillian recalled being told as much by Marie in Book 0. Say Marie tells Jillian she'll be ambushed on her way home. Jillian changes her path and gets ambushed. You seem to be saying that had Marie not told her, she wouldn't have been ambushed, but Marie says she would have been ambushed anyway. But that still isn't useless. Because even though you are ambushed either way, at least when you know it's coming, you can prepare for it.


    I agree with you for the most part.

    I mean that neither Delphie or Marie could have foreknowledge of the influence their actions will have because that's not necessarily the subject of their Predictions. Their actions, taken with the sum of other people's actions lead to the Fate happening. In this respect, they're as blind as everybody else. Which is why they don't like acting rashly.

    Evidence shows that most people don't react to bad news of a future they have no power to subvert. They get angry, irrational and defiant. Suppose I tell a ruler that he will die to a blonde piker and he instead degenerates into paranoia and starts ordering the death of all blonde pikers, here and everywhere?

    Technically, there are lots of things you had no power to prevent in your life. You probably can mention a few. It's just that people don't like thinking about them or are blissfully ignorant of it.

    Quote:
    "Wanda, the reason that Predictamancers do not say everything we know is not because it would change the future, but because it usually will make it longer and more painful to reach those future outcomes. The less you know about what is to come, about your Fate, then the easier it will be for you to get there, the less...you and others will have to suffer, to lose." She looked sadly at Wanda. "But you're a strong woman. You can't just take my word and trust me. You have to know, don't you?"


    When Delphie attempted to get Wanda to turn quietly over to Haffaton it backfired badly. It ruined her credibility and she had no power over the following events, not to mention contributing to Wanda's rather simplistic understanding of Predictamancy. Her patronizing tone to Wanda probably didn't help either. Perhaps Wanda would've gone over quietly on her own volition if she hadn't felt manipulated. (Though it's a bit pointless to speak of hypotheticals since Delphie's actions are also probably predetermined, just not prophecied.)

    The most relevant piece on Fate that I find most interesting is with Clay and Wanda's exchange:
    Quote:
    "It means that you will not," said Clay. "The difference is...academic, I guess."
    "I will not," echoed Wanda. "Even if you curse my Luck, and I leap from a parapet?"
    "You wouldn't do that," said Clay. "And I wouldn't curse you. You can't even order me to do that. It hurts the side, and I know it. And I just...I couldn't do it anyway."
    "Why not? Don't you have a will?"
    "I guess." Clay was starting to sound cranky. "D'zit matter?"
    . . .[sic]
    "Do we have free will?" she asked him slowly.
    "Yes," he said.
    "Then how can there be Fate?" she asked in the same slow, pointed tone of voice.
    Clay sighed, squinting up at her as if grasping for the words. "You can always do what you want, Lady! You can take any path you choose between here and your Fate. And you can get lucky, or unlucky along the way. But the sum of your choices will always add up to the same outcome, eventually."

    http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%200/22

    Predetermination isn't some esoteric metaphysical concept. People will behave according to their history and established character. If you were omniscient enough to know all the starting conditions, nothing they can do will ever surprise you. Often times, I wonder if Fate isn't as simple as that and a bag of tricks that let Predictamancers intuit the outcome of these things. (Possibly with the added complication of a god, a "Titan," having been responsible for getting the ball rolling. Possibly for an intended purpose. Or not.)

    Jillian would be ambushed either way in your example but how they give their advice might set into motion certain events that may not be desirable. What the Prediction doesn't say is perhaps more important than what it does say.

    Posbrake's plan in the DigDoug story was entirely about achieving the best possible outcome inside the places that the prophecy left unsaid. And that's the key: Posbrake has the most enlightened and forwardthinking beliefs about Fate. Almost no other character, including Parson or Jojo does.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:45 am 
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    DVL wrote:
    Jillian would be ambushed either way in your example but how they give their advice might set into motion certain events that may not be desirable. What the Prediction doesn't say is perhaps more important than what it does say.

    Posbrake's plan in the DigDoug story was entirely about achieving the best possible outcome inside the places that the prophecy left unsaid. And that's the key: Posbrake has the most enlightened and forwardthinking beliefs about Fate. Almost no other character, including Parson or Jojo does.


    Exactly so. Which brings us back to Charlie and Parson. Parson fights for his friends while Charlie fights for himself. Charlie treats everyone like pawns while Parson treats them as comrades or even friends. Posbrake was enlightened and Digdoug was right when he said that the world lost a great man that day. The only reason he died was because his brother is the Erf equivalent of a classist douche and Charlie screwed him over. Which is the real reason that Parson needs to take out Charlie. If he doesn't Charlie is just going to be killing people forever because he's a selfish prick.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:24 pm 
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    Quote:
    And that line of logic assumes that he thought Sylvia was stealing their luck instead of the spell, say, just making Sylvia invincible. I don't remember either Sylvia or Archer putting that idea forward

    Also, Parson is explicitly telling Jojo about Sylvias exploits and how she fought many engagements against tough enemies and there is Zero mention of how she always turned out to be the sole survivor of her stack.
    So no, I do not believe that fate works by swapping out numbers.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:10 pm 
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    Mirage GSM wrote:
    There is Zero mention of how she always turned out to be the sole survivor of her stack. So no, I do not believe that fate works by swapping out numbers.
    In Erfworld everything is numbers. Remember the start of Inner Piece 1 where it says such things as "There is a price, a cost in Numbers, to be paid for staying alive." It's not clear exactly what it is trying to say, but it seems that nothing can happen without someone paying for it because the numbers always need to balance. It may not be always paid immediately by her immediate allies, but that doesn't mean there is no price.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:38 pm 
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    That may very well be... but Sylvia continued to live for hundreds of turns - enough for her to be promoted from simple stabber to prominent warlord - without anyone in her vicinity seeming to pay a significant price, so for all relevant purposes there was no price.
    If somewhere halfway across Erf a loose brick dropped from a wall to croak a piker that is not a relevant price.

    Wanda - or better her side - paid a steep price for her opposing Fate, but even that was not directly concerning numbers or dice rolls. It's just that the things happening around her seemed to be steering her towards her fate.

    Also that Fate is a seperate axis of magic from Numbers - so maybe things decreed by Fate don't have to concern themselves with Numbers at all...

    Terry Pratchet posited in his stories the existence of a power called "Narrativum". Maybe that's what Fate runs on instead of Numbers...

    And if that is true it begs the question of what Erf runs on...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:50 pm 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    Mirage GSM wrote:
    There is Zero mention of how she always turned out to be the sole survivor of her stack. So no, I do not believe that fate works by swapping out numbers.
    In Erfworld everything is numbers. Remember the start of Inner Piece 1 where it says such things as "There is a price, a cost in Numbers, to be paid for staying alive." It's not clear exactly what it is trying to say, but it seems that nothing can happen without someone paying for it because the numbers always need to balance. It may not be always paid immediately by her immediate allies, but that doesn't mean there is no price.


    Well the exact quote is:

    Quote:
    Life is all Numbers.

    Ask any Mathamancer; they know. To live is to stand on one side of an equation, which must equal zero in the end. There is a price, a cost in Numbers, to be paid for staying alive.

    Zero is a balance, an equilibrium. Zero is a flat country, neither far away nor near. You can travel there any time, at the cost of your life. And perhaps, if someone were to pay the price to the exact number, you could even return again.

    That Mathamancers often say such things, and nod to one another soberly, is thought to be why they tend to keep to their own company. No-one knows what to say to them. Each discipline of magic has its own special insight into cosmic truths. Few casters doubted what was said of the Numbers Axis, but even fewer understood.


    See, what that tells me is that Mathamancers believe that life is numbers. Mathamancy is on the Numbers axis and uses only the Life element, so, yeah, of course they think Life is Numbers. I'm sure they believe that as strongly as the Predictamancers believe that Life is Fate and that the Findamancers believe Life is Erf. That's the opinion of one group of casters. Sizemore said that he believes Parson is enlightened because he tests things.

    Quote:
    "Look, you know. In magic theory," he said, wiping his face on his jacket sleeve, "when we debate...we do it by comparing the merits of one system of terms and ideas to another one. And somebody is always defending the system they most admire. Maybe even because it‘s the system they invented."

    Janis took his wrist as he spoke, and led him to a little marble bench to sit.

    "Lord Parson doesn‘t do it that way," Sizemore continued, sitting down. "He investigates...tests. He‘s very good at working things down to base principles. I think we could all learn something from the way he thinks."


    So just because Mathamancers claim Life is Numbers doesn't mean it's true. It just mean that they think it's true. Life and Numbers are all that Mathamancers know so of course they attribute one to the other. "We have A and we have B, therefore A equals B". That's not a correct assumption to make. I have life and I have food. That doesn't make food life. Life needs a lot of components including water, air, sunlight, the will to survive, the will to breed, the MEANS to breed. Life isn't just one thing. It is many things. If Life isn't Fate, then no one would be Fated to pop and neither would their rations. If Life wasn't Erf, then units would pop in the deadness of space (or the Erf equivalent). There are eight Classes of magic and 24 varieties of magic. Only have of the Classes have the Life element as part of their discipline. That means there's 3 types of Casters on the Numbers axis (because Retconjurers don't exist), that don't use Life in their discipline. Why would those casters think Numbers has anything to do with Life unless someone else told them that it did? Life is Numbers. Life is Fate. Life is Erf. Life is Numbers AND Fate. Life is Fate and Erf. Life is everything in ever combination. The same is true in every possible combination. In fact, to the Moneymancers, NOTHING is Numbers. And yet everything is shmuckers and everything is Shmuckers or more accurately, everything needs a certain number of shmuckers. Therefore EVERYTHING is Numbers at the exact same time that it's nothing!

    To quote Isaac: "Therefore, (it's) a paradox."

    Edit: Also, shmuckers don't have Life, Motion, or Matter. They are insubstantial. Sure they can be made into gems, but gems can be "destroyed" as easily as they are created. But the amount of shmuckers never decreases from the conversion. Yet, shmuckers (directly or indirectly) pay for everything that uses an element or multiple elements. Again nothing is everything and everything is nothing. I think that's a more accurate statement than Life is Numbers as it implies much more than that statement.

    Mirage GSM wrote:
    That may very well be... but Sylvia continued to live for hundreds of turns - enough for her to be promoted from simple stabber to prominent warlord - without anyone in her vicinity seeming to pay a significant price, so for all relevant purposes there was no price.
    If somewhere halfway across Erf a loose brick dropped from a wall to croak a piker that is not a relevant price.

    Wanda - or better her side - paid a steep price for her opposing Fate, but even that was not directly concerning numbers or dice rolls. It's just that the things happening around her seemed to be steering her towards her fate.

    Also that Fate is a seperate axis of magic from Numbers - so maybe things decreed by Fate don't have to concern themselves with Numbers at all...

    Terry Pratchet posited in his stories the existence of a power called "Narrativum". Maybe that's what Fate runs on instead of Numbers...

    And if that is true it begs the question of what Erf runs on...


    And, according to Jack, if a unit hurts their side by existing, then they would degrade in appearance and ability. While Jack may be wrong, Sylvia never looked anything BUT youthful which implies that she was helpful to her side despite everything. That doesn't explain why Olive Branch stayed beautiful but I think her Signamancy was supposed to make her look a Femme Fatale which IS a detrimental signamancy. Plus, her mental state was one of profound delusion and perversion. She was a sociopath which strikes me as bad Signamancy. Sylvia never really struck me as the manipulating kind. Just the "stab things to make them dead" and she did so to help her side. The madness only occurred when she started to believe she was invincible and that's the point we start seeing her throwing lives away. She didn't seem that callous in Book 1.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:30 pm 
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    The thing about Sylvia is that JoJo didn't defy Fate to get her back. He cheated it, and ultimately worked right alongside it. So there wasn't really any cost that needed paying, aside from his own Juice.

    My personal theory is that JoJo didn't really do much at all. My ongoing theory (simplified) is that the future of Erfworld is like an infinitely branching tree of possible Paths. These Paths deviate, but eventually touch back to one another at precise Points. Predictamancers see elements that are common to all possible Points. Like "in all possible Points, FAQ pops a Princess". In some versions, that Point happens in 100 years, and in others it happens tomorrow.

    So, when JoJo cast over her, he essentially did very poor Predictamancy and saw an element of one possible future, but it wasn't a true Prediction because that element wasn't present in ALL Points. So he thought he was changing Sylvia's Fate, when instead he was actually giving her a Fate when she had none before. The Fate thought "sure, I can work with that, I'll just kill her again someday the exact same way she was about to die anyway."

    Numbers are preserved because she is still lost, and any manipulations Fate had to do in order to keep her alive until that time were paid by those around her, as is normal for Luckamancy. We saw it when her Archer got crit mere minutes after Artemis's Crit was averted.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:29 pm 
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    Thecommander236 wrote:
    See, what that tells me is that Mathamancers believe that life is numbers. Mathamancy is on the Numbers axis and uses only the Life element, so, yeah, of course they think Life is Numbers. I'm sure they believe that as strongly as the Predictamancers believe that Life is Fate and that the Findamancers believe Life is Erf. That's the opinion of one group of casters.


    Following that train of thought coincidentally makes Carnymancers beleive that Fate is Carnymancy...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:58 pm 
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    Knott wrote:
    Thecommander236 wrote:
    See, what that tells me is that Mathamancers believe that life is numbers. Mathamancy is on the Numbers axis and uses only the Life element, so, yeah, of course they think Life is Numbers. I'm sure they believe that as strongly as the Predictamancers believe that Life is Fate and that the Findamancers believe Life is Erf. That's the opinion of one group of casters.


    Following that train of thought coincidentally makes Carnymancers beleive that Fate is Carnymancy...


    Yes, exactly and Carnymancy uses all three elements: Life, Motion, and Matter. Therefore, Carnymancy is everything, therefore Fate is everything. Carnymancers seemed have a type of fatalism. Dove Barstool let her friends disband because she believed that they would never get their crap together. They were always going to be helpless. Whereas the truth was more likely that they COULD be saved and made productive again, but Dove lacked the knowledge/personality/ability/whatever to make them see their own destructive behavior. Like I bet their are Healomancers that act like psychiatrists and Thinkamancers that act like psychologists. The average Joe doesn't know how to treat depression.

    Interestingly, this kind of explains Wanda's fatalism as guided by Fate. She was destined to get an Arkentool. The one she got was the Arkenpliers which gave life to the uncroaked. While I have argued that any one caster has a limited view on the magic of Erfworld, Sizemore claims that the census among most of the free casters was that Wanda was bringing life to croakamancy. The main dissenters were the Stagemancers. Makes sense as they owned all three elements. Now it seems that only the Carnies have that fatalism of the Stagemancers, but we can say hazard a guess that it's because they are aligned on the Fate axis. Croakamancy is also on the Fate access and Decryption breaks the rules of the uncroaked... then Jojo claims that Sylvia's decryption was a wonderful cheat to beat the fact that she didn't die willingly. Whether or not that's true, we can almost effectively say that Decryption is a type of Carnymancy and Wanda is as fatalism as the Carnies themselves...

    Even if none of that is true in so far as being literal, it is too apt to ignore. I'm not sure if I would go so far as to say it's irony, but it's... very neat.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:00 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    My personal theory is that JoJo didn't really do much at all. My ongoing theory (simplified) is that the future of Erfworld is like an infinitely branching tree of possible Paths. These Paths deviate, but eventually touch back to one another at precise Points. Predictamancers see elements that are common to all possible Points. Like "in all possible Points, FAQ pops a Princess". In some versions, that Point happens in 100 years, and in others it happens tomorrow.


    That reminds me of the Warhammer40k idea of farsight. The Shadow Points. During the normal course of events, every Farseer can see snippets of the future. They several events that will happen and they see events that might happen. As they see farther into the future, they see less specifics and more uncertain events as they near the Shadow Point. At the Shadow Point they see absolutely nothing as if the universe ends completely at that point. The Farseer then try to guide to events to hit the events that are certain and hit the good events that are uncertain (well the good events for them) and prevent the bad events. At the event, everything clears the moment the subject of the unknown makes its final climatic move. The subject can be an event, a place, an object, a person, or really anything. It's covered in blankness. However, unbeknownst to the living, the events leading up to the Shadow are not all the possible futures. They are the futures that the Farseer wishes to see. The power of the Warp, from which they receive their abilities, only shows them the futures that they are inclined to see even some of the bad ones (the implication, I guess, being that everyone's at least a little pessimistic ). Because of this no one knows the full story. Everyone thinks that they are destined to win because they see their victory plastered all over the inside of their heads. But they are wrong. Time is a river. Not a tree. It is fluid. Events are NOT set in stone at all. Sure you can "prune the tree" to remove Fates that you don't like, but that tree is made of... air, let's say. It isn't just a ball of threads or a series of paths or branches or anything like that. That's just how people see it BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THEY WANT TO SEE/WHAT THE UNIVERSE WANTS THEM TO SEE.

    I'm not sure how it works here on Erf, but my theory is that Fate is there a preview to the end. Wanda joins Olive not because Fate says so, but because everyone will naturally set it up for that to be the only possible outcome. People will fulfill their Fate because they were inclined to do so anyways. Jillian had to kill the Ruler of Haffaton, not because of Fate but because Haffaton would have kill her/took away what she loved/destroyed her side no matter what. One of those things would have happened and Jillian was the one on her side capable of striking Olive down. Had Olive abandoned her side, then she would have "destroyed" the Ruler of Haffaton. The end. Fine. Olive made the mistake of letting Jillian know that she was the heir. If Jillian killed Judy, then Haffaton would still screw over her side. So she didn't take Judy out. Olive was ALWAYS going to target Faq because a Predictamancer said they would and she was paranoid and delusional.

    0beron wrote:
    Numbers are preserved because she is still lost, and any manipulations Fate had to do in order to keep her alive until that time were paid by those around her, as is normal for Luckamancy. We saw it when her Archer got crit mere minutes after Artemis's Crit was averted.


    Yeah, but see this is why I don't think Carnymancy is using Luckamancy to Get Shit Done. I kind go over this in the next thread, but Luckamancy is not on the Fate or Numbers axes. It's on the Erf axis. Which means, while yes, it changes rolls (numbers) it isn't actually change the numbers themselves. It's switching them. Taking them from somewhere else on Erf. The Numbers axis doesn't just use numbers, it makes them and alters them. Taking of Luckamancy as someone switching their enemy's pawn with their own on a chess board. Clay Dice specifically says that someone's actions affect their rolls. That his swap doesn't take away free will. He's basically threw in a pie in the enemy's face to distract them. Or he switches a good roll with a future bad one. Carnymancy doesn't do that. It switches Fates instead of rolls. Archer claimed that his shot was destined to croak Artemis. And he's right. Artemis was in the mindset to win glory so she made a power move whereas Sylvia was inclined to be reckless, making a tempting target for Artemis. Archer on the other hand was inclined to be a sneaky bastard. Shooting from cover and playing possum. When Artemis failed to get glory she stood still when her knights died, but she was inclined to fall to despair from hundreds of turns of mediocrity. Remember, your choices matter and she just stood there as Archer shot an arrow into her eye. She had a chance to run or duck and try for one last wild shot.

    Artemis never considered the idea that perhaps shooting at a target when there's debris flying every where was a bad idea. Didn't matter, she went to take down Sylvia. Jojo said Sylvia would die at her own hand and Fate said sure as long as she dies by fire. The roads met in the middle because Sylvia was both inclined to fire and reckless suicidal behavior. She didn't need to die at Spacerock but she put herself in a dangerous position. Artemis was destined to go down because she was inclined to the same despair as Sylvia. When Sylvia died at GK, she had given into despair, and when Artemis attacked Sylvia she took that despair with her to the grave. Archer, on the other hand, was pushing his luck. He knew his boss was insane so he threw himself into danger to kill all units in the garrison. He believed he died to a luckamancy repayment, but he died because he left himself wide open for Ace. He didn't use his usually sneakiness to fire on Downer. He stood straight in the battlefield when instead he should have used his ranger skills and sneakily tracked Slately down through the halls. He was despair ate and cocky from his croaking of Artemis. He was given Sylvia's Fate to die by reckless (from leaving her flanks open for snipers) because he was inclined to start panicking when shit hit the fan.

    I may be talking out my ass here, and I mostly certainly am, but I think this idea has potential. XD Mostly what I think it boils down to is that if Fate is guiding you somewhere it's because that's where the players are leading it. They may not like the end result, but the collective force of everyone in the game was pushing to the conclusion. A conclusion that could happen now or later, but it will happen because that's where all the drops of water in the river are flowing to.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:00 pm 
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    Thecommander236 wrote:
    This kind of explains Wanda's fatalism as guided by Fate.
    The reason for Wanda's fatalism is purely mundane and quite obvious. Wanda didn't take the death of her family well, and Delphie wasn't shy about telling Wanda that it was all her fault. Was the death of Wanda's family a punishment from Fate for Wanda's defiance, or was it just the natural consequence of refusing to make peace with her enemies? In that situation, Wanda had only two choices; she could either become fatalist and pass the blame to Fate, or accept sole responsibility.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:08 pm 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    Thecommander236 wrote:
    This kind of explains Wanda's fatalism as guided by Fate.
    The reason for Wanda's fatalism is purely mundane and quite obvious. Wanda didn't take the death of her family well, and Delphie wasn't shy about telling Wanda that it was all her fault. Was the death of Wanda's family a punishment from Fate for Wanda's defiance, or was it just the natural consequence of refusing to make peace with her enemies? In that situation, Wanda had only two choices; she could either become fatalist and pass the blame to Fate, or accept sole responsibility.


    Yeah I can see that. Thing was, she could have joined Haffaton willingly and make an alliance. She had the option to bargain for it. Haffaton never claimed really used Goodminton's cities for anything. Had she worked with Olive, discovered her evil, and then convinced Judy to disband her, then the problem would've been solved. What was the actual wording on the prophecy of Haffaton's demise?

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