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 Post subject: Book 3 - Page 341
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:32 am 
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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 341
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:47 am 
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    Hey sorry folks! Things crashed when Rob went to update before midnight and it didn't take. It was a doozy to recover from, but here we are now!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 341
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:53 am 
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    Well, then thanks for your efforts Red. Also nice update. Its only a good contract if everyone feels betrayed.

    I will have to tackle the whole thing about signs and language again once I have slept though.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 341
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:55 am 
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    Sounds like mind blasting the dolly maker may have been a mistake.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 341
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:59 am 
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    Well, it's fun to see two signatories actually trying to honor a contract, rather than cheat it as much as possible, especially since neither is doing very well at it. Also, I note that Jed and Templeton are both still listening in. Jed probably can't relay much of what's going on to GK right now without tipping Stanley off about the new contract, though.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 341
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:01 am 
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    Looks like Jed is listening in on their conversation. Methinks that perhaps "taking things to the source" has a few strategic disadvantages neither of them are taking into account. Or mayhaps Huehue "wanted" their conversation to be listened in on?

    So, that's the situation, the collar cannot be removed because it's not just a dollamancy item, it's a dollamancy + arkendish item.

    It is interesting but I think I interpret "bed of nails" a bit differently than most folks, but I also think that both interpretations aren't what's going on here.

    It seems that the nature of their Sign-communication is to utilize universal and eternal points of truth/fact/existance to make an argument. These "points" are like the points of a nail: sharp, small, and capable of making a strong point on their own, but are often meant to work together. Thus, when it starts comparing "pillows" and "mattresses" it can get a bit weird but still kinda works, if we remember that it's all in comparison to "bed of nails".

    Interestingly enough, and to the side, one can indeed lay safely on a bed of nails. It all boils down to how much pressure is applied to each nail, and the pressure is directly related to how much you weight... divided up by how many points there are. If there are exactly 10 points than each nail is taking 1/10th of your weight, 100 points than 1/100th of your weight, and so on. In some ways, it's a bit of a trick, almost like carnymancy, to be able to lie upon a bed of nails and not get pierced by any of them.

    I suspect this will end in a mutual accord, with Huehue agreeing to see where the heck the money went and with Shirley agreeing to go fix the arkendish/collar problem and then both agreeing to meet again when they're done to discuss what they found and what to do about it.

    In some ways a snarky part of me is going "get a room you two". But then again, they both ARE rooms... kinda.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 341
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:03 am 
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter Has collected at least one unit This user is a Tool! Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day
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    I love it. Both are confused and aggrieved, and Jed can't enlighten them because he doesn't know!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 341
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:09 am 
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    So, Shirley doesn't have as much control over the Arkendish as Charlie does. While she's definitely demonstrated her ability to restrict Charlie's access to it at will, she can't employ its abilities as he can. Otherwise reverting the collar would be relatively simple.

    At any rate, I find it interesting that Huehue seems to intuitively have a better grasp on right vs. wrong than Shirley does.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 341
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:15 am 
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    Minor typo: the word "on" is missing after slept.
    Quote:
    The listener missed the point—or Huehue did, since he naturally slept a different bed of nails.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 341
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:20 am 
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    Now that I have read it again, there are some interesting insights into contracts and the limitations of Signamancy. Contract Signamancy apparently cannot enforce stuff which is needs other magic disciplines if those are not available. There is some leeway in handling complex problems and unforseen circumstances, when the choking collar was not immediatly removed there was no immediate penalty while Shirley tried to fullfill Charlescomm's obligations.

    And then there may be a process of weighing the efforts of each side. After the dust had settled, Caesars collar remained and Charlescomm did not get its money. Presumably, those violations cancel each other out for breach of contract purposes. If that is true, it might have been better for TV to simply pay CC because then CC would be in breach of contract and penalties might apply. I do not know if and what penalties where agreed upon in the new CC-TV contract but there has to be a default penalty for breach of contract even if no specifics are worked out. Otherwise contracts would be pointless.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 341
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:20 am 
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    Realeyna wrote:
    Well, it's fun to see two signatories actually trying to honor a contract, rather than cheat it as much as possible, especially since neither is doing very well at it. Also, I note that Jed and Templeton are both still listening in. Jed probably can't relay much of what's going on to GK right now without tipping Stanley off about the new contract, though.

    Is keeping things a secret from Stanley an issue at this point? I mean, Transylvito's treasury emptied, surely that means Gobwin Knob's been paid, contract fulfilled?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 341
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:21 am 
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    Let me explain the whole bed of nails metaphor:

    Words and Language are the nails. Words can be ambiguous. Words might mean different things to different people. Words can be spoken deceitfully. Each word is a nail. It's an imperfect crystallization of the idea behind it. That's why it's sharp. When you want to communicate, one word isn't enough. You have to string multiple words together. With enough nails, you can put together a bed that, while uncomfortable to sleep on, isn't going to immediately stab you. Contracts require many words, definitions, and clauses to ensure that the agreement is unambiguous.

    Ideas and Signs are the satin mattresses. They flow together perfectly and coherently. This is why the Towers can't lie to each other when they speak in the Source. They literally communicate in pure meaning and intention transmitted via the underlying mechanics of their universe. It'd be like mentally transmitting visions to each other or temporarily mind melding. When a Tower speaks to another Tower, the receiving Tower understands not just what was communicated, but exactly how the sending Tower meant it.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 341
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:26 am 
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    Axiom wrote:

    At any rate, I find it interesting that Huehue seems to intuitively have a better grasp on right vs. wrong than Shirley does.


    :charlie: :tv:
    One side contains bloodsucking parasites who will press the life out of you while grinding you slowly to dust. The other side consists of vampires.

    What do you expect of Charlescomm's tower? Charlies sense of right and wrong is: Whats good for Charlie is right, everything else is wrong.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 341
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:35 am 
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    At the very least I'm happy to see that Caesar keeping the deathtrap on was NOT the result of Shirley being craftier than we had supposed.

    I DO wonder if the collar's execution feature remains within Charlie's/Shirley's ability to trigger.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 341
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:40 am 
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    I think the point of not talking about things is not so GK including Jed can keep secrets from Stanley, but so the Units can keep secrets from the Temples, including Jed.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 341
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:41 am 
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    kaylasdad99 wrote:
    I DO wonder if the collar's execution feature remains within Charlie's/Shirley's ability to trigger.


    Thats practically guaranteed. At the very least, Huehue assumes that this is the case. Otherwise he would be a lot less upset about it. While having a choking collar left around your throat sucks in generall, a choking collar which no one can trigger is a much lesser problem then one who can be triggered.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 341
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:42 am 
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    I'm most interested in why there is a shattered Bunny in the first image.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 341
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:46 am 
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    kaylasdad99 wrote:
    At the very least I'm happy to see that Caesar keeping the deathtrap on was NOT the result of Shirley being craftier than we had supposed.

    I DO wonder if the collar's execution feature remains within Charlie's/Shirley's ability to trigger.


    Same. I would have been very disappointed in Shirley had that been the case. I don't particularly like Charlescomm, or Charlie, very much...but while Shirley is partisan, she's also honest, or tries to be. If she became as dirty as Charlie...well, it would be disappointing, not to mention removing some fascinating intra-party conflict from Charlescomm. I like Shirley, to a point, precisely because of that honesty. I'd definitely like to continue liking her for exactly that reason.

    Ooh, in the last image, looks like Templeton is listening in the background. This should be interesting...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 341
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:53 am 
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    Oh God.


    Remember how Benny wrote to Parson not to tell Stanley (about the amendment) and ESPECIALLY not to tell Jed?

    I think Jed just figured out the roose. Huehue says he paid the money, and Shirley says she never got the money. And right now Jed's feeling like 25 million bucks, but he's starting to feel a lot cheaper right now.

    edit:
    No one in particular wrote:
    Minor typo: the word "on" is missing after slept.
    Quote:
    The listener missed the point—or Huehue did, since he naturally slept a different bed of nails.

    I wouldn't complain. It gave Huehue an old time-y feel.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 341
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:57 am 
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    Both sides managed to cheat their stupid tower's contract. Shirley and Huehue can't cheat... but Charlie can certainly twist the meaning of the contract just as Parson/Ben could. I bet something similar happened on both sides, they both came up with a way to make their towers' contract break.

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