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 Post subject: Book 3 - Page 73
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:03 am 
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New One is up.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:15 am 
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    Well now, THAT's interesting... She was Fated to cause her own doom...

    Makes you wonder how Charlie changed his Fate...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:20 am 
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    Or how he could avoid what is coming up. I seem to recall stuffing the wizard into the balloon and waving goodbye was how he exited the story, that might work for Charlie too. :D

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    Awesome update overall, looking forward to learning more about Carnymancers. <3

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:21 am 
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    Put the Arkendish on a balloon, have a radio balloon? :roll:

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:59 am 
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    I am enjoying this. A lot.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:13 am 
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    I called this a long time ago. The only part I missed was that Jojo made it so that she could only kill herself.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:23 am 
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    Ace saw the whole thing. Heck, he even ordered the attack that caused the blaze to start.

    He's even in the group that came to the glade. Feels odd that we have a character that can give the exposition of the event but the story doesn't use it.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:40 am 
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    So, theoretically, could a carnymancer change fate however they wanted? Including giving a fate to an unfated unit?

    Suddenly I'm trying to imagine the kind of thing a carnymancer-predictamancer linkup, or even just a collaboration, could do. One to learn the fate, the other to change it. Sort of like the mathamancy/luckamancy combo mentioned in book one.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:49 am 
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    tomaO2 wrote:
    Ace saw the whole thing. Heck, he even ordered the attack that caused the blaze to start.

    He's even in the group that came to the glade. Feels odd that we have a character that can give the exposition of the event but the story doesn't use it.


    Jojo knows the salient details. I doubt he needs the blow by blow of the death of a woman he cared about.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:59 am 
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    I don't think carnymancy changes fate per se. It is like pulling a rubber band. You can pull it, but there's natural tension and a desire to snap back to its lax state. The harder you pull it the harder it hurts when it snaps back.

    That doesn't mean you can't evade that natural state, though. Perhaps there are other outlets for that tension carnymancy can use. Or perhaps you can just hold that tension for as long as you need to - however long that may be.

    What you can't seem to do is get rid of fates pull towards the "natural path" it has envisioned. You can redirect it or hold it back, but that tension is still going to be there. In Sylvia's case she was protected from fate's natural pull towards a fiery death. However she was constantly put in situations where she should have permanently died via fire because of fates desire. Ultimately her free will held the cord. She allowed it to spring free and the natural death fate wanted for her was allowed.

    It's probably the same for Charlie. He most likely has a certain death awaiting him - he certainly has the heroine buds - and he is simply holding that tension successfully. Unlike Sylvia he isn't going to decide to die at any point in the future or take stupid risks.

    There's probably going to be a lot of parallels between the two. I suspect Sylvia exists to shine a light on Charlie's situation. But if she's the tragic example I wonder if there will be another wholly triumphant example to contrast her.

    Charlie seems to want to break fate entirely. Wanda is a slave to fate. Sylvia committed suicide by basically throwing herself at fate and saying, "come at me bro". The other path would have to be someone who has changed their fate without trying to break it. Perhaps Parson? He did manage to break that boop filter, after all. At some point he may get faced with something unpleasant fate wants him to do that he won't do and will find another option than slavery, flipping the table, or suicide.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:01 am 
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    So that's why Artemis' arrows kept missing back in Spacerock. It was indeed Fate, but not quite the way we thought. Since she was Fated to die in fire, Fate was preventing her from dying through other means.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:06 am 
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    Interesting update. Does this end all doubt Fate is enforced?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:16 am 
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    keeping fact in the front of his mind -> keeping *that* fact in the front of his mind

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:24 am 
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    I'm wondering how this changes the Charlie/Jillian+Jester dynamic.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:35 am 
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    NaturalMathamancer wrote:
    Suddenly I'm trying to imagine the kind of thing a carnymancer-predictamancer linkup, or even just a collaboration, could do. One to learn the fate, the other to change it. Sort of like the mathamancy/luckamancy combo mentioned in book one.


    interesting idea... have Maggie link Jojo and Janis and change... let's say... Ace's or Parson's fate. Maybe Sizemore or even Stanley or Jed... my God, this could fuck up everything or save everything. Surely Charlie tried to do this for himself... hmm...

    btw, did we know that Pinks could stop fires?

    I must say... despite his anger, Jojo seems very... wise. Like he is getting to a point where he is reaching enlightenment. It really does remind me of the Beatles ideal. Their music videos always struck me as sereal and, yet... introspective and contemplative. Like they were trying to discover themsepves. In the end, none of the Beatles were truly "wise" from Pete Best to Paul McCartney to Ringo Starr... they were/are very... human. Jojo knows better now, but he still feels that he can fight fate. He may be right, but that the reasons he believes that... well I see his reasons are wrong. He's right for the wrong reason. Someone else said it clearly. Perhaps Parson can beat fate, but not by fighting it directly, but by moving around it and going with the flow. Or by going perpendicular to it. If you are swept out to sea, you don't fight the current, that will just exhaust you and you will die. You must swim perpendicular to the current to get out of it or you will die. Jojo and Charlie fight it, but Parson... he doesn't do direct combat. He will skirt Fate and escape it's pull completely. But he will have to swim for miles to do it. Who knows where Fate will drag him to in the meantime...

    Fated to commit suicide... what an odd fate. I wonder how Charlie chooses to die. I bet it's something like "I will die fighting Fate or something cheesy" and Fate had him dying by Hero buds. See Fate is playing a long con game with him. He WILL die through Hero Buds via Wanda telling Jillian and Jack about his addiction to the things. Jack tells Parson. Parson fights Charlie. Parson joins Charlie to fight the "true enemy" the Charlie dies to that. Therefore, DOES die to Hero Buds, but indirectly. Something like that. Charlie fights Fate. He's a Carnymancer like Jojo. He may have made the same mistake as Jojo did with Sylvia. We shall see.

    A good compromise truly does leave no one happy. A mark of true disgruntlement and satisfaction.

    EDIT: I really thought that Jojo would be assassinated mid-sentence like people expected earlier. That Jojo would die before he spilled the beans. I wonder if Charlie knows about this meeting and I'm banking on "yes". He's trying to tell Parson something. Hmm... is it Jojo or Jojo and Charlie. We know it's at LEAST Jojo. I don't know man. Let's come back here in a month or two or more. It will be interesting to see who was involved with this decision. After all, Artemis and Downer are current off-panel staring Jojo down. They are part if this decision, even if they can't hear it, very tangentially. Charlie is involved somehow as he holds Jojo's lease, but does HE know he's involved? Charlie's way of thinking influences Jojo so how much of this decision is Charlie rubbing off on Jojo and how much is it if Charlie being actively (possibly) involved here? It's an interesting question.

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    Last edited by Thecommander236 on Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:45 am 
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    Mogster2 wrote:
    I'm wondering how this changes the Charlie/Jillian+Jester dynamic.


    Calling Fate "The Ultimate Carnymancer" does lend a bit of credence to the theory that Jillian's jester was either Fate, an agent of Fate or Jillian's fate. This also puts a bit more probability towards the likelyhood that Charlie used the mind rape as an opportunity to alter Jillian's fate to somehow align to his own altered fate.

    As for Lady Sylvia, I was pretty confident that Fate wanted her to croak by fire, but I hadn't taken into account that suicide was an option.

    Hero/Heroine Buds could in some perverted way count as suicide; you can choose not to take another dose, even if the buds urge you to do so.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:12 am 
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    Hmmm, could this be part of Jillian's whole deal? We all assumed it was more Betty mucking with her head rather than Charlie messing her up, but this raises some questions. Perhaps there's some carnymancy as well as thinkamancy in this? Jillian ties into his own fate in some way, and that's why he keeps looking out for her.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:16 am 
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    Charlie was forced to destroy all his buds, and it wasn't just his addiction that was killing him. Olive betrayed him and did something to try and force him to unattune. And the original plan was for Judy to kill him. Then she chose not to, and Olive punished her for it.

    What if Charlie switched his fate to die (of Olive's betrayal, or by his heir, or by hippymancy, whatever) to being killed by a warlord summoned from another world. At the time there was only one, she had already indicated she didn't want to kill him, she was being kept incoherent by the very person that wanted him dead, and he was the person who summoned the warlord in the first place. He too thought he was being clever, but then Judy left Erf, and Parson arrived. Attempting to kill Parson would only backfire, so he tried to buy more time and force Parson to leave so fate would have to bring another warlord in. Something like that.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 5:23 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    What if Charlie switched his fate to die (of Olive's betrayal, or by his heir, or by hippymancy, whatever) to being killed by a warlord summoned from another world. At the time there was only one, she had already indicated she didn't want to kill him, she was being kept incoherent by the very person that wanted him dead, and he was the person who summoned the warlord in the first place. He too thought he was being clever, but then Judy left Erf, and Parson arrived. Attempting to kill Parson would only backfire, so he tried to buy more time and force Parson to leave so fate would have to bring another warlord in. Something like that.


    Sounds like an interesting idea. In book one Charlie also tried to hire Parson, which should also have put a late date on Parson killing Charlie.

    ManaCaster wrote:
    Interesting update. Does this end all doubt Fate is enforced?


    I would say it looks enforced (if you change fate, fate will protect you), yet impersonal. So not a passive mechanism, and not a Titan named Fate. A mechanism with feedback perhaps? I like the rubber-band idea.

    I hope we get a continuation of this conversation.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 73
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 5:39 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    What if Charlie switched his fate to die (of Olive's betrayal, or by his heir, or by hippymancy, whatever) to being killed by a warlord summoned from another world. At the time there was only one, she had already indicated she didn't want to kill him, she was being kept incoherent by the very person that wanted him dead, and he was the person who summoned the warlord in the first place. He too thought he was being clever, but then Judy left Erf, and Parson arrived. Attempting to kill Parson would only backfire, so he tried to buy more time and force Parson to leave so fate would have to bring another warlord in. Something like that.


    Lipkin, I don't always agree with you, and often I think I disagree with you, but I love this idea. I owe you a shmucker. I gave my last two away to earlier posters, but when my new donation shmuckers come in, you are getting one.

    EDIT: Also, I'm drinking right now, so remind me, kk? Cool. Beans.

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