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 Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:43 am 
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Cjc wrote:
Colin Howell wrote:
Not a fan of the current rendition of Paige, sorry. As others have remarked, there's not enough definition in her face to show any real emotional expression. This is in stark contrast to her depiction near the bottom of Book 5: Prologue 7, in which she exhibits much more character. One special thing to note is that the earlier depiction shows her as one of the few characters whose eyes have distinct whites (others being Parson, Wanda, and Jillian), marking her out as Somebody Special and giving her quite a bit more expressiveness.

Oh, I had forgotten Paige had an earlier depiction. Yeah, notice the nautilus pattern in her curls, the beauty mark on her chin, and the wrinkles on her brow. The new style is nice, but those details are the sorts of things that need to be added after the models are rendered.

Carl wrote:
Also circled somthing in the background below the trees, looks like some 5th arkentoool, definitely needs fixing whatever it is, assuming your not trying to slip somthing past us anyway:

Image

Paths in the lower right have the same issues as in paige's images, too ill defined and under detailed, especially given the strong definition in the rest of the picture.

Oh, I didn't even see that! It's a distance shot of the first image: what you've circled is Paige holding her sword defensively by the hedge.


I was actually talking about the blue thing, now you point it out it's obviously water but it looked like a conspicuous CGI wall of a building at first look.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:45 am 
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    Carl wrote:
    Cjc wrote:
    Colin Howell wrote:
    Not a fan of the current rendition of Paige, sorry. As others have remarked, there's not enough definition in her face to show any real emotional expression. This is in stark contrast to her depiction near the bottom of Book 5: Prologue 7, in which she exhibits much more character. One special thing to note is that the earlier depiction shows her as one of the few characters whose eyes have distinct whites (others being Parson, Wanda, and Jillian), marking her out as Somebody Special and giving her quite a bit more expressiveness.

    Oh, I had forgotten Paige had an earlier depiction. Yeah, notice the nautilus pattern in her curls, the beauty mark on her chin, and the wrinkles on her brow. The new style is nice, but those details are the sorts of things that need to be added after the models are rendered.

    Carl wrote:
    Also circled somthing in the background below the trees, looks like some 5th arkentoool, definitely needs fixing whatever it is, assuming your not trying to slip somthing past us anyway:

    Image

    Paths in the lower right have the same issues as in paige's images, too ill defined and under detailed, especially given the strong definition in the rest of the picture.

    Oh, I didn't even see that! It's a distance shot of the first image: what you've circled is Paige holding her sword defensively by the hedge.


    I was actually talking about the blue thing, now you point it out it's obviously water but it looked like a conspicuous CGI wall of a building at first look.


    The circled area is clearly the first panel, just from farther away.

    The backgrounds are working fine, but yeah... I don't care for that character design much. Sorry to say, but it looks like the work of someone who's still learning to draw. Given that they're learning the new modeling program, I suppose that may be literally true.

    But I'm sure things will improve rapidly! It's nice getting updates again.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:55 am 
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    As for the art, I have to agree with what the earlier posters said. Paige (and the tower) look too water-colory, too wishy washy. I much prefer the version posted by cjc with clearly defined lines. That looks much closer to the glorious Xin Art I am used too. Therefore my vote would be for clearer defined outlines.

    As for the text part, there is an unnecessary paragraph between "it's" and "scabbard".
    And I think there is an "in" missing in the sentence: "Not that you could see the ocean from anywhere the city".

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:51 am 
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    Since we're still doing the feedback thing, and I seem to be the odd one out:

    For the first panel:

    * I really like how Paige is rendered.
    * The background on that panel is not for me. Particularly the path.

    For the second panel:

    * I like the render of the tower. Also, is that the face of Mars?
    * Not sold on the trees

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:23 am 
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    Another update?! Woho!

    I am not one for detailed picture critique, but the first picture I reacted to. My reaction was that Paige didn't look feral enough. In the older picture (waves at the link posted upthread) she looks haggard and bitter. Sneaking around in her own castle she should look tense and the pink robe should contrast that. Perhaps it's the lack of details, but I just don't get that wibe from her.

    Oh, and I had no idea that Paige was in the second picture until pointed out here in the thread. Maybe I would have seen it at the computer screen (using a tablet right now), and I understand that different screen sizes creates challenges, but maybe there is some art trick to make such details pop. Because it sure is nifty once one zooms in on Paige.

    Storywise, I guess the presence must be the Tower (and only the Tower). Anyone has any guesses about Tower personality?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:21 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    And as mentioned by someone else earlier, the text has quite a few typos. Missing words ("Not that you could see the ocean from anywhere in the city"), and a line break that shouldn't be (Right before Paige throws her scabbard).

    I honestly love the fact that in a full-page Erfworld update, 2 typos are considered "quite a few".

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:44 am 
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    I definitely dislike the Paige panel. As others pointed out, the lack of outlines and blurriness of the whole area doesn't look well. The characters should definitely look like this:

    Image

    My main concern with the 3D way is the lack of proper expression in the faces, as right now they look like mannequins in a pose. Maybe should be worth considering doing a pencil pass especially on faces to give them a proper expression.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:55 am 
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    First of all - yay, update! I'm glad to see that thing are progressing (and leveling out personnally?) that a comic update is possible.

    Graphics, wise - probably in line with most of the comments - I like the look of the splash image at the end with the new tower and trees, but Paige needs more definition/detail. We've gotten used to strong lines in the art, and the lack of those detail lines is definitely felt.

    All said, a welcome return!!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:23 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    But it's very obvious that the same image of palm leaves was used over and over again.

    It wasn't obvious to me until you said it. But now that you have, like an optical illusion, I can't un-see it.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:46 am 
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    Titan wrote:
    New One is up.

    So here we go with one approach to character art. Everybody on the team will be interested to hear your feedback.


    At this point all I have to offer is "I can live with it".

    I enjoyed the update, but then I really enjoy your writing.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:22 am 
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    Art critique: The face looks very flat. Perhaps some darker lines for the wrinkles, or some shadows near the wrinkles would help. I love the shading in her hair and dress, but if that is what's making her face flat in contrast than flattening those could also help. Humans absorb a lot of data from faces, they need like 3x the detail density to feel 'the same' as the non-face portions of the picture. With my mild prosopagnosia, I've learned to make multiple passes looking at faces to get a fraction of the data other people get.

    Here Paige is in fancy raiment but exhausted. It is no surprise she looks different than here, Paige is in pj raiment but wide-eyed alert. But either the material of the raiment should have outlines, or not. If it is meant to be diaphanous material that shows vulnerability, it should blend into her arms too. If it is meant to be solid material that shows her protecting herself against the world, even with just a housecoat, it should have outlines near her neck, too.

    As for the forest, you've hit a level of detail where you might as well be putting a filter over photos. I don't know if that's more or less work. You can't just take a vacation to california to grab palm tree fronds for this one image. Make sure you have the rights before you grab something off google. Rob knows this he made Partially Clips.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:13 pm 
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    The art.

    Well. Let's express a sentiment have been having for longer. Looking back from the beginning, I can't help but see a continuous evolution from the very beginning: an ever-increasing desire to increase realism. This is neither good nor bad on its own, but I think that the style of the first pages expressed something about Erfworld. While the direction it has been evolving was, IMHO as a much less productive visual artist, less and less expressive.

    Mind you, I'm sure that what your vision actually needs and deserves, is a complete film set, with props and CGI and the whole shebang. Then you can have the realism you need to convey the estrangement of Erfworld, that would be perfect.

    But as it is, perhaps it's time to take a step back and get a feeling on what you want to express with the style of the comic, and *can* express in the confines of the comic medium, rather than trying to outrun the Red Queen in the Race for Realism, something that will keep sapping ever more time and effort (and money) for ever less improvement, that may be better spent elsewhere.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:15 pm 
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    Feedback on the new art style. Hmm.

    If we look at this specific page:

    Image 1 is too blurry and really needs some additional black lines to add detail. The edits Cjc's posted earlier in this thread improve the image by tenfold, and that is not intended as an exaggeration. Blurry backgrounds are quite fine, unclear characters are not.

    Image 2 is more clearly defined and thus a lot better, but there are two things i would remark on:

    a) One issue is that Paige is more of a coloured speck than a visible character. I completely overlooked her in the LowRes version - It was not until i logged into my account and saw the highres version that i wondered what the odd color in the background was. This kind of shot tends to work better in 2D than in 3D art though due to the level of detail being more easily controlled.
    b) Second issue is that the content of the image feels somewhat conflicting in its level of detail. It is hard to describe but it looks like the palm trees and the totem are fairly detailed / sharply rendered, whereas the buildings and the paths are less detailed and more diffuse.

    If i were to compare it to something i would say it feels as if two different generations of a game console were used to patch together a single screenshot of the same scene.

    If we look at the art style in general:
    The art style itself is fine for prose based pages, but it would likely have a tougher time in a full comic page. In the prose pages the images are a visual backup for the written text, but in the comic style pages the visuals and expressions of the characters have to define what is actually happening. As this art style is currently less expressive than the 2D drawings, it may be harder to iron it into a readable comic page.

    One option that might be viable (for the comic style pages), is creating 2D character art and superimposing that over a 3D rendered background. Rigging and creating facial meshes for a character model tends to be more time consuming than creating a 3D environment, as the characters would have to be repositioned and altered for each shot whereas the environment can just be rendered from a different angle.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:51 pm 
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    I like how the light shining through the leaves of the trees has created a pattern on the path Paige is walking on. :)

    I also like how the first panel is a snippet of the second panel, giving a feeling of zooming out in just two frames.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:22 pm 
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    I absolutely love how the canopy looks in the second panel. (The repetitiveness isn't that noticable, but could perhaps have beens solved by some rotation (and some drag'n pull))

    I also like how the 3d-scape allows for us to see Paige through the canopy and still matching the first panel.

    For the tower I would perhaps have used an extra line on the eye-socket that's in the light. Otherwise the second panel is pretty dead on what I would expect to see when reading through.

    My first impression of the first panel is that its to heavy on the blur. The character model itself looks pretty good. But texturewise it would have benefittet from more outlining. Outlinings overall helps reinforce that "comic feel".

    And Cjc more or less nails the outlining on its head. In fact when looking at what he did, I no longer mind too much the heavy blur in the rest of the panel.


    As for the curls in the hair that was pointed out appearing in a previous update, It could be that since she is in her nightgown that she has uncurled her hair. But from the image as is, we don't really know either way.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:48 pm 
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    I know a place that the undefined art would work well with... action scenes. Like a lot of anime does nowadays; Summer Wars and the Digimon Movie were the first times I saw it, but Kill la Kill, Naruto, and Black Clover are more recent examples, the animation drops and everything get blurrier and undefined to imply the speed and chaos of battle. Just like the rest of the commenters on here, I prefer strong definition for character/character interaction, but I could live with action like that.

    Another idea is that this is just how the world looks thanks to Paige's signomancy, being in a hazy fugue-state most of the time thanks to isolation, her hippymancy male counterpart, and old age. Things might not snap into focus unless she's doing what she loves best.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:18 pm 
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    I'm not partial to either image, really. What they most bring to mind is 90s era quasi-photo-realism in video games like Return to Zork, where they had a level of image quality dictated by storage and processing capabilities of the time. It feels too de-evolved and does not have any of the punch the other artwork has had. I see it in slightly contradictory terms: (1) There's too much sharpness in some parts of the image for the overall images to have an abstract de-rezzed feel, (2) There's too much blur in the colors of especially the characters and terrain to fit in properly with the trees and other scene elements (which incidentally better fit the visual style of the comic overall to my mind).

    I think @silverplated nailed it with his comments about art direction. I feel like these images lack coherency in direction to have punch even as standalone pieces, and I also don't see them as coherent with the rest of the art in the comic. I'm sure part of testing things with this new style is to decide on how the art direction should be set going forward. This just feels like you don't quite know what you want the images to convey beyond just showing Paige and the tower.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:10 pm 
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    Paige is... okay.

    I really love the art in book 4, and I feel that the panel with Paige is a big step back. But we cannot always have all the nice things. Paige is okay: her character comes through, this approach can be used to tell the story. For less central characters.

    It is not going to work for Parson, Jack, Wanda or the major roles: psychology and personality is such a big part of what makes Erfworld great. The art has to support that depth and nuance of character - even in Book 1, this was something that was done well. A few well-placed lines can be very expressive.

    I don't think this art style is going to give us that.

    Also, there's something weird about the neckline of the dress: it's similar in colour to the skin next to it, and I think the tool you are using is dithering it with the skin, and making it look blurred. For me, that's a big reason this doesn't look right. Also, there's no gleam on the sword, and that also doesn't look right.

    Like everyone else, I like the second panel.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:27 pm 
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    First of all, glad to see another update.

    So, is Paige Noble? That means she did not spawn in the wild. I thought I remembered as much.

    Why did the skulls not depop at the start of the next turn? It implies she wanted to keep them, as trophies or art. Or.. to make lamps out of them? : )


    One typo and paragraph ending have been mentioned. Here are possibly a few more.

    Second paragraph: "...part [of] the Noblewoman's raiment."

    "Not necessarily [an] invasion." Not sure whether this is a typo, and if it is, what was omitted.

    "They tremble" didn't seem quite right either. "They['ll] tremble" makes more sense.



    As for the art, the first image was jarring. The mind is set to focus on a face first. This face is Paige's only because I know this page is about her. And that she's probably wearing pink. And holding a sword.

    But I cannot really recognize her in that image. The hair vaguely recalls her hairstyle, the faint lines between mouth and nose suggest age. But the clarity of line is missing. Her face was established differently, with very clear lines and marks. With those missing, my mind has a hard time recognizing her.

    There are some lines, mosty around the face and body, but it seems that was is defined by a line and what isn't, is inconsistent. Is the idea to use lines, or not? For consistency with all the previous art, lines would be the more logical choice.

    I second the many comments that the renditions with added lines (in the comment thread) greatly improve the drawing. Makes it feel more Erflike. The face still lacks the level of expression and characterization that I love so much about Xin's art, though. I guess I'll have to learn to live with that.

    The dress, the pavement(?), the water and the border of the pond (or fountain): it lacks detail, it is too blurry. This feels like it is out of focus, which makes no sense. Or just unfinished. Rather than helping, it confuses the image, detracts from it.


    The second picture is better, and as said before, it is quite serviceable. However, I did notice that the canopy is copy and paste.

    The face of the Tutelary is fine, the stone texture on it works well. So do the few lines in the face. There is good balance between lines and shading here, that defines the face beautifully.

    However, the leaves have a lot of linework, the face has some, and the smudge of color in the background, that it took me a while to recognize as Paige, has none. That is inconsistent and feels off.

    Several shapes I cannot quite puzzle together. We probably see walls or walkways through the canopy, and hedges from a formal garden to the lower right. Not sure though.

    I'm sorry I cannot be more positive, team. I hope it still comes out constructive. You definitely deserve that.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:58 pm 
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    Swiftbow wrote:
    The circled area is clearly the first panel, just from farther away.

    The backgrounds are working fine, but yeah... I don't care for that character design much. Sorry to say, but it looks like the work of someone who's still learning to draw. Given that they're learning the new modeling program, I suppose that may be literally true.

    But I'm sure things will improve rapidly! It's nice getting updates again.


    The thing is like several people i totally didn't see paige till it was pointed out. The blue drew my eye and it looked like it was stood up vertically instead of laid down horizontally. It's one of those things like the two faces or 1 candlestick image. Which is fine when you want that but i don't think that was the intention here.

    The 2 faces or 1 candlestick images for those who may never have seen it before:

    Image

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