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 Post subject: Book 5 - Prologue 20
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:56 pm 
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New One is up.

So here we go with one approach to character art. Everybody on the team will be interested to hear your feedback.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:07 am 
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    You still want us to comment on the art correct?

    I like the darker lines, especially the leaves, on picture number two(2) better. Picture one(1) looks a little too much like a water color painting.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:12 am 
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    We've spent quite a bit of time working on the technique for characters and general design here as Rob said, so we are really interested in your feedback!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:21 am 
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    I feel like there's insufficient definition in the close-up on Paige... she needs more detailed outlines, like at the neck of her dress.

    Another awakened Tower... I wonder what it'll think she/the Side needs?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:22 am 
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    Wow she looks a lot like Maggie! This is an interesting art style and I do enjoy how primitive the tower looks. It definitely feels like the city is an old site and one definitely worth remembering.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:25 am 
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    No one in particular wrote:
    I feel like there's insufficient definition in the close-up on Paige... she needs more detailed outlines, like at the neck of her dress.
    Yes, this. This is what I meant about the lines on the tree leaves. I actually specifically thought the same thing about the neck line too.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:27 am 
    Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter This user is a Tool! Year of the Dwagon Supporter This user was a Tool before it was cool Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day Erfmover Supporter Arkenhammer Supporter Won Mine4erf for the Marbits
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    The Paige close up is real bad, I'm afraid. The tower panel, on the other hand, is pretty serviceable.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:28 am 
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    I agree with an earlier commenter - the second piece of art is good. I don't care for the first. Too ill-defined/watercolory.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:45 am 
    Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter This user is a Tool! Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Has collected at least one unit Won Mine4erf for the Gobwins Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day Won Mine4erf for the Marbits Spades Suit Pip
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    I'm not generally one to be critical of the art in this comic, but if you're looking for thoughts there's something about Paige's face which is a little unusual. I'm on a phone, but it seems like it's a strange midpoint between too flat and too textured, and that you need to lean a bit harder in one direction or the other. I notice this in the line width of her facial details, and in the shading on the side of her face fading into her hair.

    I wouldn't say it's bad, but it's new and anything new takes some time to adjust to.

    On another note, are these being adequately copy edited? There are a number of punctuation issues and a couple missing particles or other words.

    Overall, I'm super thrilled to have updates back, and glad to have something to pledge for again.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:57 am 
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    Long time reader, first time commentator.

    The models are nice, and the color is good. They could use more outline, though. Perhaps Xin could draw traditional outline over these images with black pen?
    The comic has always had strong outlining. It's not so important for background stuff, but prominent foreground objects like characters might need that extra touch.

    In the case of Paige, the age lines on her face, her nose, the transitions between body and dress and face and hair, and a few of the more abrupt changes from light to dark could use some emphasis outlines.

    For comparison, https://archives.erfworld.com/Book+1/2
    Book 1, Page 2.

    Manpower has lines for his nose and lines to differentiate body and clothes. Wanda has lines for curves too. I think drawing in these extra lines will help make the transition to this new style.

    I threw together a modified version of Paige with some extra outlines, just to help explain what I'm talking about. I've attached it to this post. I'm sure Xin could do a much better job with it, but that's the sort of thing I'm talking about... just an extra drawn outline.


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    File comment: Version of Book 5 Prologue 20 Paige with extra outlines
    Erfworld Paige.jpg
    Erfworld Paige.jpg [ 80.84 KiB | Viewed 2093 times ]
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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:10 am 
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    Again, I kinda dig it, though I was having the same thoughts as Cjc about the lines. In places in the original image (i.e. her left arm), the outline sort of fades in and out, and I can't tell if that's intentional. And on the face, some of her features are a bit hard to see. Adding lines as Cjc did may help, though maybe they don't need to be that heavy.

    I kind of like the watercolor-ly-ness quality of it. It's a new look, and I like seeing new looks. It kind of gives it a dream-like quality. (But does that match the tone? I don't think of Erfworld as a dream-like world -- not at all. Rather the opposite. The watercolors sort of imply a continuous, wavelike nature to the world, whereas every unit in Erfworld is very explicitly discrete -- quantum. ... It's very pretty though! Life is full of contradictions.)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:15 am 
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    The background and tower seem excellent, especially texture wise. Perhaps this new style would allow for Sides to have a unifying "texture" as a sign, such as dusty / gritty for a desert or Western Spoof Side.

    Cjc wrote:
    I threw together a modified version of Paige with some extra outlines, just to help explain what I'm talking about. I've attached it to this post. I'm sure Xin could do a much better job with it, but that's the sort of thing I'm talking about... just an extra drawn outline.


    The Wifequeen model is very much improved by this. The model as it is in the update just loses far too much expressiveness that is present in a 2-d drawing. It's odd to say but the drawings seem to have more life to them. The model as it is seems to be too much like a doll. [/Bill]

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:21 am 
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    Not a fan of the current rendition of Paige, sorry. As others have remarked, there's not enough definition in her face to show any real emotional expression. This is in stark contrast to her depiction near the bottom of Book 5: Prologue 7, in which she exhibits much more character. One special thing to note is that the earlier depiction shows her as one of the few characters whose eyes have distinct whites (others being Parson, Wanda, and Jillian), marking her out as Somebody Special and giving her quite a bit more expressiveness.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:38 am 
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    I love the tower. Amazing how much some shading can convey.

    I essentially agree with the above posters about the style of the first picture, and would add that I wasn't sure what the differently colored sections of the background in said picture represent. Well, mainly the silvery section between the water (?) and the grass (?).

    Although, after looking again at the picture in the page in Colin Howell's link, perhaps she's at the edge of the pool and that silvery section is the pool's border. But it'd be better to have been able to tell immediately without looking at previous pages' pictures.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:46 am 
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    I agree about the line work stuff CJC was talking about. Adding some line work to it after the watercolor process can greatly improve it. I don't know how much work that would be for Xin but it does look better.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:47 am 
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    Maybe there's a reason our wonderful artists have drawn things the way they have.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:07 am 
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    I really hate to be negative. But critiques were asked for.

    The first panel just doesn't feel Erfy. Paige isn't cartoony nor cutesy. And if she wasn't in the panel, I'd have no idea what I was supposed to be looking at. Without her presence to indicate that it was a path, I'd think I was looking at light reflecting off the surface of the pool. Is the green next to her grass? Bushes? Thick trees? The location doesn't give me any sense of location or scale. I'm not saying that the art is bad, because it isn't. In a vacuum it's quite nice. But it doesn't do a great job conveying information, which is kind of the point of art in a comic. While Paige herself doesn't pop for me, I at least appreciate that her proportions and posturing feel a lot more natural than the art at the beginning of Book 3 did. But definition feels important.

    I have less of an issue with the second panel. But it's very obvious that the same image of palm leaves was used over and over again. It feels artificial. I'm not an artist, but I think if you were able to change the angle or rotate each iteration slightly, it would help mask the cheat and bring it out of the uncanny valley.

    And as mentioned by someone else earlier, the text has quite a few typos. Missing words ("Not that you could see the ocean from anywhere in the city"), and a line break that shouldn't be (Right before Paige throws her scabbard).

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    Maybe there's a reason our wonderful artists have drawn things the way they have.

    There probably is. But we were asked for feedback.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:38 am 
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    Cjc wrote:
    Long time reader, first time commentator.

    The models are nice, and the color is good. They could use more outline, though. Perhaps Xin could draw traditional outline over these images with black pen?
    The comic has always had strong outlining. It's not so important for background stuff, but prominent foreground objects like characters might need that extra touch.

    In the case of Paige, the age lines on her face, her nose, the transitions between body and dress and face and hair, and a few of the more abrupt changes from light to dark could use some emphasis outlines.

    For comparison, https://archives.erfworld.com/Book+1/2
    Book 1, Page 2.

    Manpower has lines for his nose and lines to differentiate body and clothes. Wanda has lines for curves too. I think drawing in these extra lines will help make the transition to this new style.

    I threw together a modified version of Paige with some extra outlines, just to help explain what I'm talking about. I've attached it to this post. I'm sure Xin could do a much better job with it, but that's the sort of thing I'm talking about... just an extra drawn outline.



    Wow, yes that definitely took the basic image and improved it 10 fold, it looked far too i'll defined before. The face still needs some detail too, i know erfworld units aren't the most natural in the face department but paige has lost a bit too much IMO. The rest of the scene could do with some more definition but paige was the worst. When it comes to the face i'd point to noah and our yellow coated mathmancer in prologue 15 and compare them to the random sailors. Paige even with the extra lines looks more like them than the well defined noah and mathmancer, (Fumo is hidden enough by his hat that it's harder to say with him).

    Also circled somthing in the background below the trees, looks like some 5th arkentoool, definitely needs fixing whatever it is, assuming your not trying to slip somthing past us anyway:

    Image

    Paths in the lower right have the same issues as in paige's images, too ill defined and under detailed, especially given the strong definition in the rest of the picture.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:08 am 
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    Colin Howell wrote:
    Not a fan of the current rendition of Paige, sorry. As others have remarked, there's not enough definition in her face to show any real emotional expression. This is in stark contrast to her depiction near the bottom of Book 5: Prologue 7, in which she exhibits much more character. One special thing to note is that the earlier depiction shows her as one of the few characters whose eyes have distinct whites (others being Parson, Wanda, and Jillian), marking her out as Somebody Special and giving her quite a bit more expressiveness.

    Oh, I had forgotten Paige had an earlier depiction. Yeah, notice the nautilus pattern in her curls, the beauty mark on her chin, and the wrinkles on her brow. The new style is nice, but those details are the sorts of things that need to be added after the models are rendered.

    Carl wrote:
    Also circled somthing in the background below the trees, looks like some 5th arkentoool, definitely needs fixing whatever it is, assuming your not trying to slip somthing past us anyway:

    Image

    Paths in the lower right have the same issues as in paige's images, too ill defined and under detailed, especially given the strong definition in the rest of the picture.

    Oh, I didn't even see that! It's a distance shot of the first image: what you've circled is Paige holding her sword defensively by the hedge.


    Attachments:
    File comment: After mister Howell linked to Paige's other depiction, I tried to make her hair match by adding more lines. Starting to look very Erfy.
    Erfworld Paige with 5P7 hair.jpg
    Erfworld Paige with 5P7 hair.jpg [ 13.9 KiB | Viewed 1997 times ]
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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 20
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:56 am 
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    Wow, Balder, going at it hard and heavy immediately! I was expecting like an extra page every week, but tis is a lot!

    Feedback, I like the new-ish style for backgrounds, more watercolor, I'm down with that. But the characters need to remain properly defined. Paige is not "clear" here. But I'm sure the team will get there in the end!

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