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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:10 pm 
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Quote:
This method could cover a surprisingly large amount of ocean, because if you spent one additional move sailing around the perimeter of each hex in reconnaissance, then you had a chance to spot vessels (or new land) in all the adjacent hexes.


From Duke Forecastle part 9. Emphasis mine.

Quote:
He’d popped with ten move. It took a full move’s worth of scouting to confirm that all six hexes surrounding him were also dense jungle, each with a terrain penalty of four to enter.


It took a full move (aka, 1) to scout 6 hexes. Not some fractional portion.

Quote:
He’d tromped forth into two more hexes of deep jungle, both of which were surrounded on all sides by hexes of deep jungle. This one had the ants. Only this one. And now his move was zero.


So his move was 10 (10), -1 to scout 6 hexes, (9), -4 to enter a new hex, (5), -.5 to scout 3 hexes (4.5), -4 to enter a new hex (.5). -.5 to scout the last 3 hexes. Total - 2 hexes moved, 12 additional hexes scouted, 13 jungle hexes total.

Picture:
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File comment: Popped in the green hex, first scouted ring is in red, second scouting in orange, third scouting in yellow.
Fumo example.png
Fumo example.png [ 12.97 KiB | Viewed 722 times ]

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     Post Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:37 pm 
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    Am I the only one who thinks Fumo might have just met another clan of Juggle Elves? Their description and speech patterns are similar to the ones we've met (esp the incomprehensible war paint), though the "pigmented spiked hair" is new. And "punk elves" would be capitalized if Fumo knew the correct term for them, I'd guess.

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     Post Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:00 pm 
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    Realeyna wrote:
    And "punk elves" would be capitalized if Fumo knew the correct term for them, I'd guess.

    Nah, I think Punk Elves is probably the correct term. They seem to enjoy smoke and smoking, and punk or punkwood is an old-fashioned term for fire-starting materials.

    Thecommander236 wrote:
    That's a tough one. The sun can move backwards through the sky if you enter a hex that's still stuck in an earlier time during the day, so is Erfworld really orbiting the sun or is the sun just a placeholder? But maybe at the end of the day, the entirjty of Erf made one rotation, it's just that different parts finished relative to how it was observed in the hex.

    For that matter, I wonder if the moon exhibits similar odd behavior. It'd be harder to verify experimentally since no one has move at night, but a Thinkamancer could presumably send their view of the night sky to someone in another hex.
    EDIT: actually, here's another thought. If Erfworld really is orbiting a sun, that means it's always day somewhere, and it's theoretically possible to be in contact with people who have move and juice even when no one in your battlespace does. This seems like it could be exploited somehow by Thinkamancers or Arkendish users, but I'm not quite putting the pieces together.

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     Post Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:31 pm 
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    Bandaid wrote:
    Therefore I seriously doubt that Erf rotates around a star.

    (revolves)

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     Post Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:51 pm 
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    Caprice wrote:
    If Erfworld really is orbiting a sun, that means it's always day somewhere, and it's theoretically possible to be in contact with people who have move and juice even when no one in your battlespace does. This seems like it could be exploited somehow by Thinkamancers or Arkendish users, but I'm not quite putting the pieces together.
    Hat Magic would actually be more effective than thinkamancy in that case, as you can use an existing hat to send messages with no juice. When night has just started, use a hat to contact someone to the west of you, where it is still day. They will be able to reposition in response to your call, and perhaps even enter a night hex by moving east (though their move will go to 0 as soon as they enter the night hex). This could result in a surprise attack, as the enemy thinks the turn is over and no-one can attack but suddenly an attack comes.

    Another idea is a remote-triggered fire trap. This one does use Thinkamancy, as Thinkamancers can transmit a visible, audible illusion to a unit outside their hex (e.g.). Build a device that is triggered by a specific sound (using the resonant frequency of glass, for example). Position a thinkamancer at a westward hex, and when you know someone is camping in an eastward hex at night (perhaps with a Lookamancer or Findamancer), transmit a thinkagram that triggers the trap, shattering a vessel of volatile fluid, starting a fire. If the hex is flammable enough, you could burn it to an inferno at night, croaking everyone inside. The benefit of this kind of trigger (instead of a regular, step-on-it trigger) is that there is no way for the units in the hex to escape the fire at night.

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     Post Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:52 pm 
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    Sir Rigwald wrote:
    Quote:
    This method could cover a surprisingly large amount of ocean, because if you spent one additional move sailing around the perimeter of each hex in reconnaissance, then you had a chance to spot vessels (or new land) in all the adjacent hexes.


    From Duke Forecastle part 9. Emphasis mine.

    Quote:
    He’d popped with ten move. It took a full move’s worth of scouting to confirm that all six hexes surrounding him were also dense jungle, each with a terrain penalty of four to enter.


    It took a full move (aka, 1) to scout 6 hexes. Not some fractional portion.

    Quote:
    He’d tromped forth into two more hexes of deep jungle, both of which were surrounded on all sides by hexes of deep jungle. This one had the ants. Only this one. And now his move was zero.


    So his move was 10 (10), -1 to scout 6 hexes, (9), -4 to enter a new hex, (5), -.5 to scout 3 hexes (4.5), -4 to enter a new hex (.5). -.5 to scout the last 3 hexes. Total - 2 hexes moved, 12 additional hexes scouted, 13 jungle hexes total.

    Picture:
    Attachment:
    Fumo example.png


    I never considered being half to use a fraction of a move. How would that work if, say, you only scouted two sides of the hex? Would that make it impossible to use the last 66% of that Move point to enter the next hex or does the points round up? At that matter, does that actually mean you can't walk around a hex if you're out of move or does that mean that the hex boundary gets too cloudy to see through when you try to observe an adjacent hex? I assume that looking through a hex boundary to get Intel is what costs the Move and that trying to get that Intel when you're out of Move makes it so your view is unclear or you simply can't focus enough to get any meaningful Intel out of it like how your eyes go blurry when you're tired or been staring at a computer screen too long.

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     Post Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:33 pm 
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    Anomynous 167 wrote:
    Thecommander236 wrote:
    The fire probably saved his damn life. He's in a jungle, he would never be found if he didn't make a smoke signal. Too bad he landed face first into said smoke signal, but he was trying to stop the ants. The signal to the elves was just a happy bonus. And he's lucky he didn't burn with said ants. Fumo may have normal stats, but his hidden luckamancy must be high, because he would never had MADE a fire if he didn't end up in the one hex that HAD ants.

    Nah, he made the fire because he was cold, wet and miserable. Burning all the ants was a happy bonus. The elves were a bonus multiplier.


    Yeah but...

    The actual text of the update wrote:
    With no move, there were no more big decisions remaining to smoke on. No more ever, probably. His only war was with the ants, but smoke might be the answer there.

    Fumo didn’t know what kind of ants they were—he hadn’t popped with any woodsy-type specials, either—but he was vaguely certain that the way to deal with an insect hazard was with smoke. The ants certainly did not like it when he blew ciggy smoke at them. With a fire, and then maybe a whole circle of burning or smoldering wood, he might be able to create a place in this hex where the ants would not march.


    So no (or "nah" as you say) the fire was very much a deliberate strategy by a warlord compelled by his nature to maximise survival chances even in an apparent fail situation. I agree the elves were a "happy bonus" although I'd point out fate is a thing and maybe a warlord who maximises his strat gets a nudged random encounter roll...

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     Post Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:58 pm 
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    I was presuming the Sun of Erfworld was a great big powerball glowing above and that it has its own Move stat. How it Moves each day is dependent on how everyone takes their Turn.

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     Post Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:04 pm 
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    Nakedkali wrote:
    I was presuming the Sun of Erfworld was a great big powerball glowing above and that it has its own Move stat. How it Moves each day is dependent on how everyone takes their Turn.


    I personally think each hex of Erfworld is an instance following rulesets for synchronisation based around the turn system, and with that in mind there is no "sun" in Erfworld, there is a sun effect that applies within each instanced hex.

    It's a simpler explanation than the amount of crazy time lensing required for one sun to work.

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     Post Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:06 pm 
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    Thecommander236 wrote:
    EDIT: actually, here's another thought. If Erfworld really is orbiting a sun, that means it's always day somewhere, and it's theoretically possible to be in contact with people who have move and juice even when no one in your battlespace does. This seems like it could be exploited somehow by Thinkamancers or Arkendish users, but I'm not quite putting the pieces together.


    I suspect this view would be inconsistent with the strategy table GK used in Book 1, which allowed you to see and give orders to units in a whole bunch of different hexes, but not at night. While you can finagle the time synchronization between hexes a little bit, this does (mostly) imply that all units in all the hexes visible on the table have a common view of when night and end-of-turn occur. This would be inconsistent with a sun whose position varied systematically with east-to-west position of the hexes.

    (OT: I have a new post up on "Hugos for Erfworld 2019" that's linked in my signature. I'd encourage interested people to take a look at it for more info before the upcoming deadline.)

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     Post Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:16 pm 
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    Thecommander236 wrote:
    I never considered being half to use a fraction of a move. How would that work if, say, you only scouted two sides of the hex? Would that make it impossible to use the last 66% of that Move point to enter the next hex or does the points round up? At that matter, does that actually mean you can't walk around a hex if you're out of move or does that mean that the hex boundary gets too cloudy to see through when you try to observe an adjacent hex? I assume that looking through a hex boundary to get Intel is what costs the Move and that trying to get that Intel when you're out of Move makes it so your view is unclear or you simply can't focus enough to get any meaningful Intel out of it like how your eyes go blurry when you're tired or been staring at a computer screen too long.


    Going from the "Scouting all adjactent hexes cost one move theory" I would presume that one move gets deducted from your move score the moment you scouted the first hex boundary. You may then scout the other boundaries at no additional cost or skip that if you only wanted to scout one hex.

    That is assuming that Erf only uses complete numbers. So far we have only been shown complete numbers. That does not mean there are fractional numbers used in the background of course.

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     Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:27 am 
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    dewtell wrote:
    Thecommander236 wrote:
    EDIT: actually, here's another thought. If Erfworld really is orbiting a sun, that means it's always day somewhere, and it's theoretically possible to be in contact with people who have move and juice even when no one in your battlespace does. This seems like it could be exploited somehow by Thinkamancers or Arkendish users, but I'm not quite putting the pieces together.


    I suspect this view would be inconsistent with the strategy table GK used in Book 1, which allowed you to see and give orders to units in a whole bunch of different hexes, but not at night. While you can finagle the time synchronization between hexes a little bit, this does (mostly) imply that all units in all the hexes visible on the table have a common view of when night and end-of-turn occur. This would be inconsistent with a sun whose position varied systematically with east-to-west position of the hexes.

    (OT: I have a new post up on "Hugos for Erfworld 2019" that's linked in my signature. I'd encourage interested people to take a look at it for more info before the upcoming deadline.)


    I didn't write that post, you credited the wrong person. XD

    seanfish wrote:
    Nakedkali wrote:
    I was presuming the Sun of Erfworld was a great big powerball glowing above and that it has its own Move stat. How it Moves each day is dependent on how everyone takes their Turn.


    I personally think each hex of Erfworld is an instance following rulesets for synchronisation based around the turn system, and with that in mind there is no "sun" in Erfworld, there is a sun effect that applies within each instanced hex.

    It's a simpler explanation than the amount of crazy time lensing required for one sun to work.


    You're thinking in Earth logic. That's your mistake. Like Sizemore says, if you didn't observe a nearing he's sun when you entered it, it can literally jump backwards in the sky. Each he's time is moving at its own speed, but if you contact someone in that hex, suddenly they will be at the same point in time, moving at the same speed. Everyone experiences seconds, minutes, and hours, but it's relative. You can experience 6 minutes of time scouting while I spent 6 hours sitting on my ass at the palace. If I looked at you (assuming this was our universe), I would see moving very slowly. On Erfworld, if looked at you, suddenly I would see you moving at the same pace as me dispite the fact that 6 minutes passed for you and 6 hours for me. Just me looking at you synced
    up the flow of time if not how much time each of us experienced.

    What Parson found insane is that if you walk into that hex where six minutes passed while in your hex 6 hours passed, six hours didn't pass in the six minute hex. The time of the hex doesn't skip the next 5 hours and 56 minutes to catch up with your hex. You essentially step back into time as the sun rewinds (from your perspective) 5 hours and 56 minutes back along it's path which the people in the hex wouldn't see happening since the sun was where it was at the time you entered the hex, 6 minutes further along in the sky.

    What makes this scary is you may send a army out at 8:00 AM and hear back at 8:05 that they got wiped out. It may have taken them 5 hours to get massacred from their perspective, but you missed it because you weren't paying attention so time accelerated for them (or decelerated for you) and that lack of attention meant that you didn't give yourself time to reinforce them. That was probably one reason Stanley was pissed that Parson didn't tell him that he sent the army out in Book 1. If everyone at the table stopped watching the battle all at the same time, they could've looked back and suddenly the battle was an hour further along and everyone on their side got killed from a lack of direction. (This is moot because the linked casters were watching the entire time via magic so the time flow was synced, but Stanley tends to be paranoid about these things).

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     Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:48 am 
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    tomaO2 wrote:
    The ants get rated as a hazard after all, interesting.

    Bandaid wrote:
    "It took a full move’s worth of scouting to confirm that all six hexes surrounding him were also dense jungle, each with a terrain penalty of four to enter."

    Sounds to me like he popped in a jungle hex surrounded by six other jungle hexes. And jungle (at least this type of jungle) seems to have a movement penalty of four in general. I also cannot imagine that normal forest has a movement cost of 1. That value is usally reserved for roads, at least concerning units on foot/wheels/tracks.


    I don't know why that "full move's worth" line was included, but we know he starts with 10 move and when he was done...
    "his move was zero."

    Therefore, it was 5 move per hex. Costs 1 move normally and there was a 4 point penalty, making it cost 5 move per hex. There is no other way to have him start with ten move, only to finish with none.

    I have to say, 10 move for a freaking level 1 infantry unit is a lot higher than we had been led to believe. Jack, a high level caster, was listed as having 8 move back in book 1, and Ansom's fast reaction force, that he used to great effect during the Unaroyal campaign, had an 18 move minimum. That group was mainly mounts and fliers.

    I still think 8 is a better base move for a warlord, especially when it was suggested in the previous update that leveling increases move.

    Having it start at 10 just seems too high. Particularly when there seem to be heavy mounts that don't even get up to 18 move. Spidews, for instance, do not seem to meet that standard. At least, I never noticed any spidews taking part in the group, despite being the main GK land mount.

    That said, it's been a long time since we've gotten move stats from a land unit, so if mounts have gotten a movement boost retcon since book 2, that would also be okay.


    Foraging costs move, or he might've scouted again before moving.

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     Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:36 am 
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    So did we pull off a reverse-Copernicus/reverse-Galileo and prove that the Sun does not in fact revolve around Erf ?

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     Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:33 pm 
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    Hero of Shadows wrote:
    So did we pull off a reverse-Copernicus/reverse-Galileo and prove that the Sun does not in fact revolve around Erf ?


    It's more like "does anything revolve around anything" instead.

    The reason those guys assumed that either the Earth revolved around the sun or the sun revolved around the Earth was due to the fact that the heavens had consistent motion. At first, it seemed like simple revolving, then they noticed the planets in the sky seemed to do loops in the sky. So they thought the planets made curly loops around whatever it was they were revolving around. Then they realized that the Earth rotates on an axis and the "loops" come from the fact that each planet doesn't complete one rotation around... whatever it revolved around all at the same time. Then they realized that the sun is the center, that the Earth had a tilt to its axis, and that the rotation of the planets were oval shaped.

    On Erf, there is no consistent motion of the heavens. It's all based on what hex you're in and how that hex feels like acting that day. We don't even know if there are other planets in Erfverse. We never see or hear mention of people using telescopes or seeing brighter than normal "stars" in the sky that behavior differently from regular stars. For all we know there's another Erfworld in the same solar system (if solar system even exist in a way we can comprehend) that's already been mined out and killed or figured out this everlasting peace thing. Some kind of Marzworld or something.

    Which, unrelated topic, what kind of creatures does Marzworld produce? I imagine Venizworld produces sentient fart clouds and lava and acid elementals.

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     Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:12 pm 
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    I get the symbolism! The smokes he spent on his own doing nothing were freedom. He spent his last smoke acting, and saved himself. Now he has to trade his smokes for a turn's upkeep, just as he might trade his freedom to survive.

    Or he might live to mentor Prince :albert: . Never can tell for sure what Rob's got planned.

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     Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:32 pm 
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    To be fair, it's hard to justify spending a bunch of resources doing celestial observations and scientific research when you're fighting for your survival in a system that's designed to make peace impossible.

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     Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:13 pm 
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    greycat wrote:
    To be fair, it's hard to justify spending a bunch of resources doing celestial observations and scientific research when you're fighting for your survival in a system that's designed to make peace impossible.


    Yeah but there are MK sorts that have the resources and potential interest to do just that.

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     Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:18 pm 
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    seanfish wrote:
    greycat wrote:
    To be fair, it's hard to justify spending a bunch of resources doing celestial observations and scientific research when you're fighting for your survival in a system that's designed to make peace impossible.


    Yeah but there are MK sorts that have the resources and potential interest to do just that.


    Possibly Great Mind territory which means that no one outside of them know shit.

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     Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:58 pm 
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    Thecommander236 wrote:
    Which, unrelated topic, what kind of creatures does Marzworld produce?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6TNP6cjN0U

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