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 Post Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:51 pm 
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My thoughts on 2 points:

1. Upkeep - So we know that barbarians need shmuckers, not just food. However there could potentially be more sources of shmuckers than just mining. We know that high quality items, like jewelry, can be converted to cash. My theory is that certain hunting or foraging trophies (fur pelts, ivory tusks, rare ebony wood, etc.) might also be convertible to money for certain barbarians, lucky or skillful enough to obtain them. Perhaps obtaining shmuckers this way might require the right special.

2. Pop rates - Barbarian commanders pop as frequently as other ferals, but different regions may have different pop rates. A region that pops dwagons might not pop that many people. Also, commanders might have a lower or nonexistent chance of popping inside an existing side's territory/battlespace, which is why randomly appearing warlords haven't been a factor in the story so far. Fate might also interfere with pop rates, to preserve its plan.

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     Post Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:59 pm 
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    Omnimancer wrote:
    A region that pops dwagons might not pop that many people.

    Well, that sounds eminently reasonable to me. Now if we're done scouting this hex --
    Odd, I just head the strangest noise. Sounded like some sort of cross between a bolt of lightning and a... burp?

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     Post Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:34 pm 
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    Bandaid wrote:
    Fla_Panther wrote:
    See, this is why (most) people could never be a god. We put too high a value on certain things. A god has to put at least an equal value on death as life, on pain as joy, on the night as the day, if not more so. It's nice you like the steak, but daddy has to kill the cow. It's nice you like the Christmas presents, but daddy has to go to work. This is why Dionysus' orgies lead to violence. New life cometh; we must clear the way.

    I have two words for that statement: Bull and shit. Humans have to struggle with limited resources and having to spend their time with work to get anything done. I would expect better from gods which are able to create a world out of nothing. If you have lower standards for your (theoretical) god(s) thats your problem. Any god who wants to be worshipped by me has to do a bit more then simply create a world.


    Yeah, I pretty much agree with you, but... the thing is, if you want to avoid suffering, there is a way to avoid suffering: stop playing the game.

    And... you know the game means suffering, right? That's pretty much 100% guaranteed. But you're still playing. So there must be something that you value more than the pain that the rest of your life is going to bring you. Otherwise you'd just... take that ticket out the game.

    So I don't get why there is so much suffering in the world, and I think God, if there is one, has a lot of explaining to do. BUT... I can't escape the fact that even on those terms I am still willing to play. So the only conclusion is that I don't really believe suffering matters, so I can't really complain that God doesn't either.

    That said, any God that creates a universe which contains suffering and doesn't contain a way out totally is a dick.

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     Post Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:15 pm 
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    Seemes Fumo's last words will be "I've fouled up my only.... anything!"

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     Post Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:36 pm 
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    khamul wrote:
    That said, any God that creates a universe which contains suffering and doesn't contain a way out totally is a dick.

    Yeah, that'd be Hell.

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     Post Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:25 pm 
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    seanfish wrote:
    as the focus moves away from the anagramatic Parson Gotti


    Anagramatic??

    Bandaid wrote:
    And that is because barbarians move first.
    ...
    The last barbarian in the battlespace is out of move, Barbarian turns end.


    It still boggles my mind that conceivably one (or multiple) barbarians could choose not to end their turn until they see the sun setting, and yet other sides' turns technically haven't started yet. So a barbarian could be seeing the sun set, and the next side's turn starts with a sunrise that technically started ~24 hours ago from the barbarian's perspective.

    Bandaid wrote:
    If free leadership with the occasional free caster was up for graps


    Well, technically not free, in that they would still require upkeep. But It wouldn't have cost anything to pop them. Then again, the overwhelming majority of those barbarians will be level 1 popped that day, not ones that have lived a long time and leveled up. So the benefit may not be all that great. I guess it really depends on what you get. Maybe it might be nice to have one caster of every variety, but that might also cost a lot in terms of upkeep. Also you might not get that opportunity. You might only get 1 caster per every 10 warlords, and even then, maybe you get 75% of the possible caster types but Erfworld's psudo-random number generator keeps giving you casters you already have. It could take a long time to get one of each. Etc.

    Caprice wrote:
    Omnimancer wrote:
    A region that pops dwagons might not pop that many people.

    Well, that sounds eminently reasonable to me.


    Or ... maybe they do, and that's how dwagons get to be so big.

    khamul wrote:
    I don't get why there is so much suffering in the world, and I think God, if there is one, has a lot of explaining to do. BUT... I can't escape the fact that even on those terms I am still willing to play. So the only conclusion is that I don't really believe suffering matters, so I can't really complain that God doesn't either.


    Well said. But a large part of that has to do with which tradition you were raised in. In response to that (and Bandaid might want to read this too) ... I'll wrap it in spoiler tags because it's long. I could link to the page I found it on but then I wouldn't be able to highlight the passages I want. So ... here you go:

    Spoiler: show
    JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Now, we want to think about God. God is a thought, God is a name, God is an idea, but its reference is to something that transcends all thinking. The ultimate mystery of being is beyond all categories of thought. My friend Heinrich Zimmer of years ago used to say, “The best things can’t be told.” Because they transcend thought. The second best are misunderstood, because those are the thoughts that are supposed to refer to that which can’t be thought about, you know. And one gets stuck with the thoughts. The third best are what we talk about, you see. And myth is that field of reference, metaphors referring to what is absolutely transcendent.

    BILL MOYERS: What can’t be known.

    JOSEPH CAMPBELL: What can’t be known.

    BILL MOYERS: Or can’t be named.

    JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Yes.

    BILL MOYERS: Except in our own feeble attempt to clothe it in language.

    JOSEPH CAMPBELL: And the ultimate word in our language for that which is transcendent is God.

    <skipping a few lines here>

    They show a picture of this enormous sculpture: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d9/2e/4b ... dfb0f4.jpg

    JOSEPH CAMPBELL: This is a wonderful cave. You enter the cave from a bright sky. Of course, moving into the darkness, your eyes are blacked out. But if you just keep walking slowly, gradually the eyes adjust, and this enormous thing, it’s about 19-feet high and 19-feet across, the central head is the mask of eternity. This is the mask of God.

    BILL MOYERS: The mask of eternity.

    JOSEPH CAMPBELL: That is the metaphor through which eternity is to be experienced as radiance.

    BILL MOYERS: And these other two figures? (The ones on the sides.)

    JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Whenever one moves out of the transcendent, one comes into a field of opposites. These two pairs of opposites come forth as male and female from the two sides. What has eaten of the tree of the knowledge, not only of good and evil, but of male and female, of right and wrong, of this and that, and light and dark. Everything in the field of time is dual. Past and future, dead and alive. All this ... being and nonbeing, is/isn’t.

    BILL MOYERS: And what’s the significance of them being beside the mask of God, the mask of eternity? What is this sculpture saying to us?

    JOSEPH CAMPBELL: The mask represents the middle, and the two represent the two opposites, and they always come in pairs. And put your mind in the middle; most of us put our minds on the side of the good against what we think of as evil. It was Heraclitus, I think, who said, “For God all things are good and right and just, but for man some things are right and others are not.” You’re in the field of time when you’re man, and one of the problems of life is to life in the realization of both terms. That is to say, I know the center and I know that good and evil are simply temporal apparitions.

    BILL MOYERS: Well, are some myths more or less true than others?

    JOSEPH CAMPBELL: They’re true in different senses, do you see? Here’s a whole mythology based on the insight that transcends duality. Ours is a mythology that’s based on the insight OF duality. And so our religion tends to be ethical in its accent: sin and atonement, right and wrong. It started with a sin, you see. In other words, moving out of the mythological zone, the garden of paradise where there is no time, and where men and women don’t even know that they’re different from each other, there the two are just creatures. And God and man are practically the same: “He walks in the cool of the evening in the garden where we are.” And then they eat the apple, the knowledge of the pairs of opposites, and man and woman then cover their shame, that they’re different; God and man, they’re different; man and nature, as against man.

    You get a totally different civilization, a totally different way of living according to your myth as to whether nature is fallen or whether nature is itself a manifestation of divinity, and the spirit being the revelation of the divinity that’s inherent in nature.

    I once heard a wonderful lecture by Daisetz Suzuki, you remember, this wonderful old Zen philosopher, who was over here. He was in his 90s. He started to lecture in Switzerland that I heard in Ascona. He stood up with his hands on his side, and he said, “God against man, man against God, man against nature, nature against man, nature against God, God against nature. Very funny religion.”

    Now, in the other mythologies, one puts oneself in accord with the world. If the world is a mixture of good and evil, you do not put yourself in accord with it. You identify with the good and you fight against the evil, and this is a religious system which belongs to the Near East, following Zarathustra’s time. It’s in the biblical tradition, all the way, in Christianity and in Islam as well. This business of not being with nature, and we speak with sort of derogation of “the nature religions.” You see, with that fall in the garden, nature was regarded as corrupt. There’s a myth for you that corrupts the whole world for us. And every spontaneous act is sinful, because nature is corrupt and has to be corrected, must not be yielded to. You get a totally different civilization, a totally different way of living according to your myth as to whether nature is fallen or whether nature is itself a manifestation of divinity, and the spirit being the revelation of the divinity that’s inherent in nature.

    BILL MOYERS: Don’t you think that Americans, modern Americans, have rejected this idea, this Indian idea, this ancient idea of nature as revealing the divinity, because it would have kept us from achieving dominance over nature?

    JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Yeah, but that’s the biblical condemnation of nature that they inherited from their own religion and brought with them. God is not in nature, God is separate from nature, and nature is not God, and this distinction between God and the world is not to be found in basic Hinduism or Buddhism, either.

    I’ll never forget the experience I had when I was in Japan. To be in a place that never heard of the fall in the garden of Eden. To be in a place where I can read in one of the Shinto texts, “The processes of nature cannot be evil.” When every impulse, every natural impulse, is not to be corrected, but to be sublimated, you know, to be beautified. And the glorious interest in the beauty of nature and cooperation with nature, and coordination, so that in some of those gardens you don’t know where nature begins and art ends. This to me was a tremendous experience, and it’s another mythology.


    Moving on ...

    Nimelennar wrote:
    khamul wrote:
    That said, any God that creates a universe which contains suffering and doesn't contain a way out totally is a dick.

    Yeah, that'd be Hell.


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     Post Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:39 pm 
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    Fla_Panther wrote:


    Oooh, that's a new one. Normally, I get a rimshot, either from an enthusiastic pink pony, or an exasperated pirate monkey.

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     Post Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:33 pm 
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    strange7person wrote:

    See Birds are animals, and yet explicitly do have purses.


    Well, they have a method of storing smuckers anyway, assuming that there isn't a caster trick involved. There seems to also be some sort of relation to hiring them and the egg. I don't claim to understand how their system works.

    Look, there are a lot of weird exceptions in this world but, as a general rule, animals don't have purses, and they don't need to get money to survive. Otherwise they'd have a lifespan about as long as most barbarian warlords, which is quite short. Money is hard to get.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:25 am 
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    Bandaid wrote:
    seanfish wrote:

    Uncaring deity: I don't give a crap. WOOOOOOO!
    Bandaid: OH YEAH? WELL YOU DON'T GET MY VOTE BUDDY!!!
    Uncaring deity: Oh look awesome, I made something that disagrees with me, I am so good at this! You go little guy!
    Bandaid: NO I REALLY DON'T WANT TO WORSHIP YOU THOUGH!
    Uncaring deity: Oh look, I made a cool butterfly too! Good day all round go me! High five Butterfly! High five Bandaid! Whoops I squashed them both. What a goofball! Welp, that's quitting time, good thing I already created brewskis!



    While really unfortunate from the viewpoint of aforementioned Bandaid it totally demonstrates my point that said uncaring deity is a fucking asshole. As for the not worshipping, if an actual deity showed up I might worship it out of fear for my life or out of fear for the life of others if I saw a chance of worship helping prevent that loss of life. But from an ethical standpoint, any deity like that is a bully and not worth worshipping out of ones own volition.


    Oh I absolutely agree. My point was that a truly uncaring deity wouldn’t care about worship either. A vengeful one now...

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:47 am 
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    Bandaid wrote:
    "At any rate, barbarian commander units popped in the wilderness as commonly as other ferals."

    Now that I have read the update again, this one sentence bugs me really hard, internal logic wise.
    Leaving aside the cruelty of the Titans, we know that the chance of a feral dwagon popping in a given Misty Mountain hex is about 200 to 1. Unless barbarian commanders pop at a much, much lower rate then dwagons, some barbarian commanders should have shown up in the story by now (besides Jillian).

    I mean, for example, the Royal Crown Coaliton columm was how long, six hexes? Assuming that was correct and further assuming they scouted three hexes in every direction that would be 72 hexes (66 surrounding ones, 6 for the column itself). Now that column moves at whatever the slowest units behind can manage, so the number of hexes you have to scout increases further, depending on terrain. If you wanted to scout properly, you would have to increase that range. Drastically. Now Vinnies bats could have scouted quite a few hexes. Lets say, oh, 200 different hexes at least. Statistics would say the encountered a popped feral unit. And that is for one turn.
    Given the whole time the conflict raged the Royal Crown Coalition columm alone would have to have rolled a critical fumble to not encounter at least one barbarian commander on the way from Warchalking to Gobwin Knob. Maybe they croaked him or her offscreen. Fine.

    The Coalition had 19 Barbarians in it, they couldn't all be Jillian and her peeps.

    And let's not forget that before Warchalking, the coalition lucked into finding a level 10 Warlady and a bunch of Gwiffons. They probably weren't going to find much afterwards, given such a lucky roll.
    Plus the time between Warchalking and Gobwin Knob was what? A week?

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:17 am 
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    Fla_Panther wrote:
    seanfish wrote:
    as the focus moves away from the anagramatic Parson Gotti


    Anagramatic??


    Found a few interesting ones there:

    Agni taproots - the first result, intriguingly. Hindu god of fire, and a branching structure deep under the earth. Sounds like an uncroaked volcano reference.

    Atropos giant - he's a big guy, fated to end stuff.

    a protagonist - c'mon, everybody knows this one

    against troop - trying to break the endless war

    parsing tatoo - tats are signamancy, and Lord Hamster is notably good at figuring out - parsing - that sort of symbolism

    arsing potato - ...okay, I'm done.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:34 am 
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    spriteless wrote:
    Seemes Fumo's last words will be "I've fouled up my only.... anything!"


    And then he'll scream "... FFUUUUU-"!

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:27 pm 
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    Lord_Backstory wrote:
    I'm glad to see the backer updates resume again. They might be a good way to fund Erfworld since they don't need as much art; sell backer stories for X amount of dollars to get people featured in the plot, then get more money from people pledging for backer stories.

    Also, this Paige person; I wonder if it's related at all to Paige Down (or whatever it was called) in the Dig Doug story? Or maybe the name similarity is just coincidence since that is a minor detail.


    I couldn't afford to do this atm. But +1 all the same.

    Bandaid wrote:
    ManaCaster wrote:
    So how do ferals work? Do ferals have much higher popping rates, but almost always only live one turn?

    Bandaid wrote:
    About the Titans. If they exist, then they are fucking assholes. (As if further confirmation had been needed).

    Keep in mind that the Titans are higher beings and that in some ways they are probably alien to us. They might have trouble relating to their creations in the same way we don't quite relate to fictional characters or even animals. This might simply be their version of creating a tabletop board game, only with a much more sophisticated AI.


    Any higher being who fails to notice that it has created sentient beings should not have been able to create sentient beings in the first place because it is about as bright as burnt toast. Any higher being who knows that it is playing with sentient beings.... is a fucking asshole.
    As for your comparisons, fictional characters are not real and therefore cannot suffer and while I eat animals I do not spawn them for a single day and then let them starve.


    What counts as sentient?

    Sentiance as we define it is a completely arbitrary standard. The Titans could be sufficiently advanced beings that their definition of sentience does not include their creations. Hell the question of how exactly you define sentience is still pretty fuzzy IRL.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:31 pm 
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    As far as "why don't we see more of these barbarians" questions.

    Bear in mind the only reason this Warlord survived to end his turn is because the ants aren't going to attack until nighttime. Most wild animals aren't that considerate.

    Likewise unless You've got a lot of flyers actively scouting every hex near every single city would be quite hard. Look at Carpool launching the attack on TV, they had no clue there was anyone nearby until they launched the attack. And TV has a literal mountain of bats.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:29 pm 
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    Strange7Person; all of those anagrams seem to have two a’s, whereas Parson Gotti has but one.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:02 pm 
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    Merodach wrote:
    Strange7Person; all of those anagrams seem to have two a’s, whereas Parson Gotti has but one.


    Parson A. Gotti

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:42 pm 
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    The war that barabarian warlords just appear in terrain that they can be unsuitable for, doesn't sound like it was planned by the Titans that way. It sounds like a bug/glitch. Or maybe a feature that was left half undone do to the project management titan saying they didn't have time to complete it.

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:25 am 
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    The pop mechanics for barbarian warlords sounds a lot like the barbarian generation mechanics for the Civilization game series. In the original Civilization, barbarians would appear out of unexplored territory and in the later games barbarian encampments would automatically appear anywhere there wasn't a cultural boundary. Noah's description of barbarian warlords sounds more than appropriate for a game world.

    I don't see it being a broken mechanic by any means since they serve a purpose. They are resources to be harvested whether that is by a side or by a hungry feral.

    Also, nobody mentioned her, but Tisha of the Great Minds that Think Alike was a barbarian caster.

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:00 am 
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    Liked the update.

    I agree it seems unlikely that we wouldn't have come across a barbarian Warlord.

    However I guess this is really a case of the mechanics interfering with the story so I am fairly glad it never came up as it would have really bogged the story down and a mysterious character just appearing out of nowhere doesn't seem that appealing.

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:29 am 
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    Lonpone wrote:
    Also, nobody mentioned her, but Tisha of the Great Minds that Think Alike was a barbarian caster.

    Also of note how like Fumo, Tisha only has a single two-syllable name.

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