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 Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Page 2
 Post Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:45 pm 
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kaylasdad99 wrote:
Jade wrote:
... Like if the Vatican started opening up brothels.


Hey, now, let's not go making rash judgement calls...


History trivia - the Catholic church did manage/license a few brothels back in the day.

Link.
Quote:
Middle Ages: Have Catholic church sponsored brothels existed? How were they different from normal brothels of that era?

To my knowledge, there weren’t actually “church sponsored” brothels. However, the Catholic church sometimes did become involved in the licensing and regulating of brothels and similar establishments. The best-known example is of the area of Southwark, which is across the Thames from London. This area became the official red-light district for the London area in the 12th century, and was placed under the control of the Bishop of Winchester. ...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:46 pm 
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    If the city has more than 6 sides (as it appears to) and takes up the whole of its tile (instead of part of a hexagonal tile) then Erfworld would need to be in a hyperbolic space. Which has some very interesting tactical implications.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:30 pm 
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    So... Byrne considers Portia to be more experienced, and that she outclasses him, but what if she's just a higher-level novice? He's clear about being a novice but her mastery level is never defined(I reread both prologues to be sure), and I think that discrepancy could be deliberate on her part. She'd hardly want to admit she's also a novice despite her monetary success, especially while negotiating with a competitor, and her experience with hand Signals could just be practice, not better understanding.

    Portia seems to have a limited understanding of Signamancy beyond for-sale Signs, and Bryne may be too inexperienced to tell the difference between lots of work in one part of Signamancy and understanding of the whole discipline. He seems to want to improve his understanding, but Portia seems to be stuck on a single basic idea, and doesn't want to admit she doesn't understand more.

    I forget where it was commented, and would appreciate a reference if someone else remembers, but I think Portia exemplifies the idea of a novice who found one effective spell and has neglected to learn anything else, slowly gaining levels and juice but never achieving Adept much less Master. I think the comment was about a fireball? The search function isn't helping me.

    Also, High Chair was hilarious. :lol: The term is by the first illustration, but I found it especially appropriate as elevated seating from which food wrappers and debris fall down. No wonder towers tend to consider Rulers as children.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 2
     Post Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:28 am 
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    halbert wrote:
    Mr. Sometimes wrote:
    Just don't ask me how "isn't" became "iddn't", because I have no idea. As an experiment, I tried mentally swapping all of Byrne's "s" sounds with "d" sounds. It sounded utterly preposterous.


    There are two different abbreviations going on:

    Isn't it --> iddn't (or idnit)

    Doesn't it --> Dudnit (or duddn't)

    What's happening is a two-stage abbreviation: first, you drop the s sounds, replacing them with a glottal stop (like 'Plane'arium in an old South Park did with 't'): "Isn't it" becomes '"I'n't it". Second stage: you replace the glottal stop with a 'd' sound (because that's easier to produce vocally, and is closer to the sound of the glottal than the original s). "I'n't it" becomes "Iddn't".

    Edit: Just a guess, by the way. IANALinguist.


    Well I'm a linguist (hence the name), and I would guess that the 'dd' likely represents what linguists call a tap or flap, which is not quite a [t] and not quite a [d] but is sort of inbetween the two, only lighter. Many t's and d's in American English and other Englishes (though I'm not sure about Australians, TBH) are actually pronounced as flaps (if not glottal stops as halbert said), particularly when the preceding syllable is stressed and the following one isn't. It's why we pronounce "metal, medal, mettle, and meddle" all the same way. Or consider Dr. Seuss's brillliant example:

    Quote:
    Let's have a little talk about tweetle beetles....

    What do you know about tweetle beetles? Well...

    When tweetle beetles fight,
    it's called a tweetle beetle battle.

    And when they battle in a puddle,
    it's a tweetle beetle puddle battle.

    AND when tweetle beetles battle with paddles in a puddle,
    they call it a tweetle beetle puddle paddle battle.

    AND...

    When beetles battle beetles in a puddle paddle battle
    and the beetle battle puddle is a puddle in a bottle...
    ...they call this a tweetle beetle bottle puddle paddle battle muddle.

    AND...

    When beetles fight these battles in a bottle with their paddles
    and the bottle's on a poodle and the poodle's eating noodles...
    ...they call this a muddle puddle tweetle poodle beetle noodle
    bottle paddle battle.

    AND...

    Now wait a minute, Mr. Socks Fox!

    When a fox is in the bottle where the tweetle beetles battle
    with their paddles in a puddle on a noodle-eating poodle,
    THIS is what they call...

    ...a tweetle beetle noodle poodle bottled paddled
    muddled duddled fuddled wuddled fox in socks, sir!


    Actually, the British tend NOT to flap their t's nearly as often as Americans do (if at all), which has become a problem in the company I work with because we build personalized voice synthesizers based on American English linguistics and we often get complaints from our growing base of British clients.

    Anyway, to get back to the relevant example, I've noticed this 'flapping' occurring not only with T's and D's but also related sounds like Z, particularly in contractions like "isn't". And I've noticed it, if not in British English, then at least in my very own full-blooded American English (though not at all frequently). So it is not at all as rare or "ridiculous" as some other commenters have said. As mentioned before, Rob is using this spelling deliberately, as he does extensively with the Transylvitians.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 2
     Post Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:29 am 
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    Hero of Shadows wrote:
    spicymancer wrote:
    I’m kind of curious about how the Generica business model works. Do they sell stuff via hats and through the MK? How do they make so much of it, and so cheaply, that even Charley is willing to outsource some of his needs to them?

    That said, in RL businesses that sell bottom dollar but gaudy merchandise have a place... it might not be glamorous, but they serve a need. Is their position really that precarious because the stuff they sell is gaudy? I mean, I can see another side copying their MO but with an IKEA like polish to try and undercut them, but that isn’t quite an existential threat atm.

    On an unrelated topic, I wonder if their tower can modify not just herself, but the city? I can see her spending the entire treasury to dignify the entire city.


    I'm curious about this too, the signs I can clearly make out are for a Healomancer, armory and Charlescomm, we know that Charlie only deals with commanders and up (CW and Rulers) because they are the only ones who can pay for him.

    Armor and weapons can be used by anyone but common infantry simply doesn't have any schumckers to trade to buy a better weapon.

    Same for healing, if you're incapacitated the only way you're important enough to warrant healing is if you're a commander.

    These are all services for commanders, how many commanders might pass through Generica that it makes sense for those craftsmen and sides to pay for advertisements ?

    Because if there isn't a huge influx of eyes to look on those advertisements they're useless and you can bet Charlie wouldn't be paying for a useless billboard.

    I think Charlescomm advertising in Generica is genius concidering who else is advertising there.

    "If there's something strange, and it don't look good. Who you gonna call? The Copse!"

    "If there is something strange, and you got no hat today. How you gonna call? Charlescomm! (Your battlespace solutions provider)."

    Those looking for Doctor Plotz and The Copse are also going to be looking for a way to contact them. And that's where Charlie comes in.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 2
     Post Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:36 am 
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    spicymancer wrote:
    I’m kind of curious about how the Generica business model works. Do they sell stuff via hats and through the MK? How do they make so much of it, and so cheaply, that even Charley is willing to outsource some of his needs to them?

    I'd say their business model is implicit in Generica's name. Generica sells generic(an) goods at rock bottom prices. Generica is like the China of Erfworld that way.

    Generica has so watered down their brand that their products are considered as "generics". You only buy them if you can't afford the stuff with good brands.
    Quote:
    I mean, I can see another side copying their MO but with an IKEA like polish to try and undercut them, but that isn’t quite an existential threat atm

    I dub thee side, Ikia!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 2
     Post Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:03 am 
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    halbert wrote:
    Mr. Sometimes wrote:
    Just don't ask me how "isn't" became "iddn't", because I have no idea. As an experiment, I tried mentally swapping all of Byrne's "s" sounds with "d" sounds. It sounded utterly preposterous.


    There are two different abbreviations going on:

    Isn't it --> iddn't (or idnit)

    Doesn't it --> Dudnit (or duddn't)

    What's happening is a two-stage abbreviation: first, you drop the s sounds, replacing them with a glottal stop (like 'Plane'arium in an old South Park did with 't'): "Isn't it" becomes '"I'n't it". Second stage: you replace the glottal stop with a 'd' sound (because that's easier to produce vocally, and is closer to the sound of the glottal than the original s). "I'n't it" becomes "Iddn't".

    Edit: Just a guess, by the way. IANALinguist.


    I'm just confused why you're quoting me when it wasn't I who wrote that comment :?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 2
     Post Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:10 am 
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    Mr. Sometimes wrote:
    halbert wrote:
    Mr. Sometimes wrote:
    Just don't ask me how "isn't" became "iddn't", because I have no idea. As an experiment, I tried mentally swapping all of Byrne's "s" sounds with "d" sounds. It sounded utterly preposterous.


    There are two different abbreviations going on:

    Isn't it --> iddn't (or idnit)

    Doesn't it --> Dudnit (or duddn't)

    What's happening is a two-stage abbreviation: first, you drop the s sounds, replacing them with a glottal stop (like 'Plane'arium in an old South Park did with 't'): "Isn't it" becomes '"I'n't it". Second stage: you replace the glottal stop with a 'd' sound (because that's easier to produce vocally, and is closer to the sound of the glottal than the original s). "I'n't it" becomes "Iddn't".

    Edit: Just a guess, by the way. IANALinguist.


    I'm just confused why you're quoting me when it wasn't I who wrote that comment :?

    It seems that, after the Pun Paladin and the Alliteration Assassin, we now need to introduce the Quotation Commando. *points the Quotation Commando in the direction of Mr. Sometimes*

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 2
     Post Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:56 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    How many walls does the city have? Is the city a pentagon? I can't tell.


    Looks like 10 to me. The gate is in one of the sides, and I think one is outside the frame of the picture.

    Falcon X wrote:
    Are those sailboats in the background?
    Is that a leisure activity in Erfworld? Honestly, I haven’t seen much in the way of leisure activities yet.


    More likely tourist cruises or sailing lessons. Or entertainment, reenacting sea battles. Remember, it's gotta be something they can sell.

    Anomynous 167 wrote:
    Knowing Generica's foreign policy, they're probably saleboats.


    Take your tip and get out.

    kaylasdad99 wrote:
    Jade wrote:
    Like if the Vatican started opening up brothels.


    Hey, now, let's not go making rash judgement calls...


    It's okay, I'm sure Generica sells a cream for that.

    Leafsw0rd wrote:
    Byrne is sounding very, very Aussie, to be honest.


    I didn't think to comment on it in the last update, but Byrne is definitely wearing Aussie military kit. The hat's a dead giveaway. I was kind of surprised/disappointed he wasn't named Bruce. I have no idea who he's a reference to in Stupidworld. Also, being that they're an Aussie band, I would guess Byrne's from a side whose cities may include an ACDC, not Generica.

    Brother Mirtillo wrote:
    Not a typo -- simply a peculiarity of speech.

    Just don't ask me how "isn't" became "iddn't", because I have no idea. As an experiment, I tried mentally swapping all of Byrne's "s" sounds with "d" sounds. It sounded utterly preposterous.


    Using iddn't for isn't ... isn't necessarily an Australian thing, it's also common in New York/New Jersey/Philadelphia. I'm not sure why Byrne would've said it, may just be one of his own personal idiosyncrasies. He may have picked it up from someone else and just says it that way because he likes to.

    Can't read the rest of the thread, have stuff to do. Ta.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 2
     Post Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:08 pm 
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    Ah, that Tower saved that man's life.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 2
     Post Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:09 pm 
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    saleboats aside, I feel like it must be possible to use boats for forage since we know small animals can be used for meat. it would be weird if there weren't smaller fish that port towns caught too.

    edit: I think we know that anyway, am I remembering right?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 2
     Post Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:38 pm 
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    As an Australian, the Metal/Medal having same pronunciation sounds like pre-school
    and iddn't sounds like a blocked or broken nose.
    .. or maybe northern England..

    (edit: I note that Americans tend to assume there is a single "British" language usage/accent etc... there are probably a similar variety of accents and dialects in England as in the US.. then in Britain, there is still Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Ireland etc... )
    Lingo wrote:
    ...

    Well I'm a linguist (hence the name), and I would guess that the 'dd' likely represents what linguists call a tap or flap, which is not quite a [t] and not quite a [d] but is sort of inbetween the two, only lighter. Many t's and d's in American English and other Englishes (though I'm not sure about Australians, TBH) are actually pronounced as flaps (if not glottal stops as halbert said), particularly when the preceding syllable is stressed and the following one isn't. It's why we pronounce "metal, medal, mettle, and meddle" all the same way. Or consider Dr. Seuss's brillliant example:
    ...

    Actually, the British tend NOT to flap their t's nearly as often as Americans do (if at all), which has become a problem in the company I work with because we build personalized voice synthesizers based on American English linguistics and we often get complaints from our growing base of British clients.

    Anyway, to get back to the relevant example, I've noticed this 'flapping' occurring not only with T's and D's but also related sounds like Z, particularly in contractions like "isn't". And I've noticed it, if not in British English, then at least in my very own full-blooded American English (though not at all frequently). So it is not at all as rare or "ridiculous" as some other commenters have said. As mentioned before, Rob is using this spelling deliberately, as he does extensively with the Transylvitians.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 2
     Post Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:43 pm 
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    Fla_Panther wrote:
    Leafsw0rd wrote:
    Byrne is sounding very, very Aussie, to be honest.


    I didn't think to comment on it in the last update, but Byrne is definitely wearing Aussie military kit. The hat's a dead giveaway. I was kind of surprised/disappointed he wasn't named Bruce. I have no idea who he's a reference to in Stupidworld. Also, being that they're an Aussie band, I would guess Byrne's from a side whose cities may include an ACDC, not Generica.


    I discussed Byrne's likely origin if he was Aussie-inspired here. Long story short, he's likely based on Joe Byrne, of Ned Kelly's gang.

    Which means we might be getting a Ned Kelly inspired ruler, which would be awesome.

    As a side note, how is the post where I talk about three wolf moon one of my most tipped posts? XD

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 2
     Post Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:44 pm 
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    Thecommander236 wrote:
    Ah, that Tower saved that man's life.


    That tower will probably save the man's whole side from being absorbed by Generica after insulting the whole of Generica's existence and way of life.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 2
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:03 am 
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    I'm wondering if the Tower isn't claiming that the place offends him BECAUSE the rest of it is still filled with crap for sale. Not that it's complaining it's now 'too clean'.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 2
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:46 am 
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    came out of lurking because no one seemed to post on the fact there are a lot "starbucks" everywhere just like real generica.

    I've spotted 4 so far

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 2
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:59 am 
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    Also, just in case no one else said it before, thanks for the high resolution picture, Team Erfworld. Unfortunately I lack the knowledge to fully recognize how much work must have flown into that city view but I can guess it was a lot.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 2
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:33 am 
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    Hmm. Byrne being there might mean something was fated to happen to Generica's signamancy anyways. Then Towers happen, and do something about it very fast, very easy. Do we all by now know what happens when we take the Very Easy Way?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Page 2
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:47 am 
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    Jethreuel wrote:
    And the tower immediately agrees with someone accusing the ruler of bad taste.

    But that also means that the tower also negated much of Byrn's value in his offer, if the Tower can do the job as well.


    The role of a consultant is often, if not always, to tell their customer what some of them already knew, but could not agree or act upon without a formal third party counsel.

    That said, I think this won't end well for Generica. What Byrne the Notist is missing is that good taste is not necessarily good for Generica's business. Generica has a well-established brand personality: cheap, easily approachable, not pretentious, flexible. Most people, including Generica's customers, do not have a very refined taste.

    Byrne the Notist is trying to change an everyman's kitch brand into an elitist design brand. Mark my words, it will not end well.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Page 2
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:25 am 
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    Harmandil wrote:
    Jethreuel wrote:
    And the tower immediately agrees with someone accusing the ruler of bad taste.

    But that also means that the tower also negated much of Byrn's value in his offer, if the Tower can do the job as well.


    The role of a consultant is often, if not always, to tell their customer what some of them already knew, but could not agree or act upon without a formal third party counsel.

    That said, I think this won't end well for Generica. What Byrne the Notist is missing is that good taste is not necessarily good for Generica's business. Generica has a well-established brand personality: cheap, easily approachable, not pretentious, flexible. Most people, including Generica's customers, do not have a very refined taste.

    Byrne the Notist is trying to change an everyman's kitch brand into an elitist design brand. Mark my words, it will not end well.


    To put it in Stupidworld terms, Byrne's small design firm is in trouble, the solution he is betting on to save it is to convince Wallmart to redesign all their sites and to give all the work just to his one small firm.

    Yeah if not for the Tower schaenaningans it wouldn't have ended well for him.

    Regarding the advertisement yes now the Charlescom one makes total sense, but it doesn't solve the underlining problem for me.

    Those signs need to be seen by paying customers, commander-type units (Warlords and Casters) as they are the only ones with purses to buy things or with the clout to get their Side to buy them things.

    How is the city of Generica getting so many commanders through it so that the signs are profitable ?

    Now if those signs were in the MK where there is enormous traffic and everyone has a purse I would have 0 problems with them, but in the real space of Erfworld where you need to spend move to get to and from Generica how do those advertisements get seen ?

    PS: I would love to see if Generica has somehow found a non-military type strategy if their growth is through trade somehow and not though conquest and raiding. I know this sort of contradicts Parson's math about a non-warfare side but I'm open to new mechanics being revealed.

    Might Portia be the Ruler's daughter ?

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