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 Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 2
 Post Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:03 pm 
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Hero of Shadows wrote:
Byrne's plan should have been new/innovative/game-changing.

It's a perfectly valid service to point out that someone else's innovative game-changer is in fact a bad idea.
Whether it really is a bad idea, I suspect we won't get too many details on, but in a world where Signamancy really does seem to have cosmic significance, it seems like intentionally running your Signamancy into the ground in exchange for cash could very well be shortsighted.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:09 pm 
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    Mr. Sometimes wrote:
    Just don't ask me how "isn't" became "iddn't", because I have no idea. As an experiment, I tried mentally swapping all of Byrne's "s" sounds with "d" sounds. It sounded utterly preposterous.


    There are two different abbreviations going on:

    Isn't it --> iddn't (or idnit)

    Doesn't it --> Dudnit (or duddn't)

    What's happening is a two-stage abbreviation: first, you drop the s sounds, replacing them with a glottal stop (like 'Plane'arium in an old South Park did with 't'): "Isn't it" becomes '"I'n't it". Second stage: you replace the glottal stop with a 'd' sound (because that's easier to produce vocally, and is closer to the sound of the glottal than the original s). "I'n't it" becomes "Iddn't".

    Edit: Just a guess, by the way. IANALinguist.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:05 pm 
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    Argent wrote:
    Hero of Shadows wrote:
    I've got to say I'm disappointed in Byrne: <snip>


    You are forgetting the significance of Signamancy. What you look like is what you are, the puns and references show the essence of a thing. If you show your side as cheap and disposable, that's what it will be.

    Byrne isn't concern-trolling while flaunting a sense of superiority, he is literally trying to help them.


    I agree he isn't concern-trolling but he is there as the representative of a side that Generica could/will destroy for not paying their debts, his plan which was teased in the preceding chapter I had expected to be something more than very in your face fact that Generica is gaudy and he could "help" them change.

    Say if the POV character was a Healomancer and he spent a chapter teasing about his awesome plan to win a battle, wouldn't you feel annoyed that his plan was to simply heal the injured troops that had been showcased in the chapter ?

    Wouldn't you expect something more creative and out of the norm ?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:11 pm 
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    Caprice wrote:
    Hero of Shadows wrote:
    Byrne's plan should have been new/innovative/game-changing.

    It's a perfectly valid service to point out that someone else's innovative game-changer is in fact a bad idea.
    Whether it really is a bad idea, I suspect we won't get too many details on, but in a world where Signamancy really does seem to have cosmic significance, it seems like intentionally running your Signamancy into the ground in exchange for cash could very well be shortsighted.


    Sorry for the double posts in the row multi quoting is hard with this forum software, altough it is very good from other points of view.

    Last thread people here were putting out lots of ideas about what Generica's signamancy strategy was and what fault Byrne found within it.

    I agree with you that Byrne calling out a bad game-changing ideea as bad is good character stuff.

    But at least as far as I can tell, Generica wasn't doing anything smart/game-breaking like Charlie was doing with Shockamancy for example so Byrne is left to object to the successful strategy on account of it being tacky.

    So yeah if there had been something more or there will appear something more I could get behind Byrne's plan but for the moment his plan seems incredibly weak to me.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:39 pm 
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    halbert wrote:
    Mr. Sometimes wrote:
    Just don't ask me how "isn't" became "iddn't", because I have no idea. As an experiment, I tried mentally swapping all of Byrne's "s" sounds with "d" sounds. It sounded utterly preposterous.


    There are two different abbreviations going on:

    Isn't it --> iddn't (or idnit)

    Doesn't it --> Dudnit (or duddn't)

    What's happening is a two-stage abbreviation: first, you drop the s sounds, replacing them with a glottal stop (like 'Plane'arium in an old South Park did with 't'): "Isn't it" becomes '"I'n't it". Second stage: you replace the glottal stop with a 'd' sound (because that's easier to produce vocally, and is closer to the sound of the glottal than the original s). "I'n't it" becomes "Iddn't".

    Edit: Just a guess, by the way. IANALinguist.


    Or a way to represent the glottal stop used in the contraction, if Byrne has an Aussie accent of sorts.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:45 pm 
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    The President keeps his advisory courtiers in a pretty cabinet. They don't say anything important, or anything at all so far.

    Generica's roots in America are pretty clear, and Byrne declares that they are one of the richest sides in the world (because nobody knows about Charlie's treasury, it is hard to say where they fall). Poor Underclock is in debt and maybe foreclosed on soon. I wonder if they have any other sides in the same situation?

    The Tower waking up time is going to be followed pretty fast by Jed's reveal about Charlescomm's juice theft. I'd imagine a money-making side is going to have some issues with that sort of thing.

    Silent E is gonna have to say something about his Tower changing, I'd think. Blame it all on the Byrne?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:49 pm 
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    I’m kind of curious about how the Generica business model works. Do they sell stuff via hats and through the MK? How do they make so much of it, and so cheaply, that even Charley is willing to outsource some of his needs to them?

    That said, in RL businesses that sell bottom dollar but gaudy merchandise have a place... it might not be glamorous, but they serve a need. Is their position really that precarious because the stuff they sell is gaudy? I mean, I can see another side copying their MO but with an IKEA like polish to try and undercut them, but that isn’t quite an existential threat atm.

    On an unrelated topic, I wonder if their tower can modify not just herself, but the city? I can see her spending the entire treasury to dignify the entire city.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:58 pm 
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    spicymancer wrote:
    I’m kind of curious about how the Generica business model works. Do they sell stuff via hats and through the MK? How do they make so much of it, and so cheaply, that even Charley is willing to outsource some of his needs to them?

    That said, in RL businesses that sell bottom dollar but gaudy merchandise have a place... it might not be glamorous, but they serve a need. Is their position really that precarious because the stuff they sell is gaudy? I mean, I can see another side copying their MO but with an IKEA like polish to try and undercut them, but that isn’t quite an existential threat atm.

    On an unrelated topic, I wonder if their tower can modify not just herself, but the city? I can see her spending the entire treasury to dignify the entire city.


    Well, I might have to reread again but it is quite possible that the "presidental" room is located in the tower. On the other hand, towers seem to use the word city and me synominous. Jed said "Jetstone wants me back" (paraphrased). And changing a city is natural Dirtamancy anyway. Given what else Towers can do, it would not surprise me in the least if Towers could affect the whole city (which opens new and terrifying ways to screw with an attacker. Ending a side gets harder and harder...)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:02 pm 
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    spicymancer wrote:
    I’m kind of curious about how the Generica business model works. Do they sell stuff via hats and through the MK? How do they make so much of it, and so cheaply, that even Charley is willing to outsource some of his needs to them?

    That said, in RL businesses that sell bottom dollar but gaudy merchandise have a place... it might not be glamorous, but they serve a need. Is their position really that precarious because the stuff they sell is gaudy? I mean, I can see another side copying their MO but with an IKEA like polish to try and undercut them, but that isn’t quite an existential threat atm.

    On an unrelated topic, I wonder if their tower can modify not just herself, but the city? I can see her spending the entire treasury to dignify the entire city.


    I'm curious about this too, the signs I can clearly make out are for a Healomancer, armory and Charlescomm, we know that Charlie only deals with commanders and up (CW and Rulers) because they are the only ones who can pay for him.

    Armor and weapons can be used by anyone but common infantry simply doesn't have any schumckers to trade to buy a better weapon.

    Same for healing, if you're incapacitated the only way you're important enough to warrant healing is if you're a commander.

    These are all services for commanders, how many commanders might pass through Generica that it makes sense for those craftsmen and sides to pay for advertisements ?

    Because if there isn't a huge influx of eyes to look on those advertisements they're useless and you can bet Charlie wouldn't be paying for a useless billboard.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:54 pm 
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    Hero of Shadows wrote:
    These are all services for commanders, how many commanders might pass through Generica that it makes sense for those craftsmen and sides to pay for advertisements ?

    Because if there isn't a huge influx of eyes to look on those advertisements they're useless and you can bet Charlie wouldn't be paying for a useless billboard.


    Half the schmuckers I spend on advertising are wasted; the trouble is I don't know which half.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:17 pm 
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    Unlurking for a story submission and a comment :p.

    Relative to the two proluges, there's a Sign that as far as I can tell, no one commented on- the Signamancers commented on sharing Signs with their hands.

    That would (I think) be a shout out to American Sign Lagrange, which is literally, making hand shapes (signs) to convey meaning.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:37 pm 
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    Hero of Shadows wrote:
    These are all services for commanders, how many commanders might pass through Generica that it makes sense for those craftsmen and sides to pay for advertisements ?

    Maybe they have some sort of arrangement where casters from the MK can come and shop... and then spread the word back to their home sides.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:14 pm 
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    So when Genny (the Generica tower, obviously) finds out about breaking contracts, will she use that knowledge to break every advertising contract in the city to beautify it, and in the process communicate to the two Signamancers that contracts can be broken?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:32 pm 
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    Jade wrote:
    Falcon X wrote:
    Are those sailboats in the background?
    Is that a leisure activity in Erfworld? Honestly, I haven’t seen much in the way of leisure activities yet.


    I don't know about leisure, but we've definitely seen boats used for battle, like with Duke Forecastle, and the battle between Carpool and TV.
    Fishing is a thing too. Foraging with specialized equipment for rations?

    Adept wrote:
    I see. So this two part intro was to show how tutelaries are indeed waking up all over the Erf.

    Good job.
    I was worried that Big Think only hit the three sides we saw get new towers. I'm not sure where the city of Gobwin Knob/ICFYS would be but but I bet it would be near FAQ. Stanley felt able to try for a last minute dash for the then-abandoned capital of Old FAQ when he though his side was lost at the end of book 1, and Jillian managed to launch a surprise attack on the city which suggests that it's probably not too deep into GK territory.

    The only map of Erfworld we've got shows CC, FAQ/"North East" Gobwin Knob, and TV all somewhat in a row. I was worried that the portal column locations might have vaguely matched up to their real world capital site counterparts. Big Think might have (I thought) just rigged a few towers and then fumbled the awakening of the pliers. If sides off of the known map have had their tutelories awakened then it's probably a pretty wide spread phenomena, makes it interesting.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:42 pm 
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    Bandaid wrote:
    Argent wrote:
    Hero of Shadows wrote:
    Generica is by all accounts hugely successful even if it is gaudy as hell, which cannot be said about Byrne's side.

    But [he] ends up being making fun of the more successful Side, telling them that all their success doesn't matter because other sides don't think them classy enough [..]

    ..he feels like the brother who got an arts degree and is still living with his parents into his 30s while working temp jobs who's making fun of the other brother who's an well paid engineer with a good job, his own house and car because he dresses in more fashionable clothing (bought with loans from the parents and the successful brother of course)

    You are forgetting the significance of Signamancy. What you look like is what you are, the puns and references show the essence of a thing. If you show your side as cheap and disposable, that's what it will be.

    Byrne isn't concern-trolling while flaunting a sense of superiority, he is literally trying to help them.


    Well, he might have those intentions, but how they are received are an entirely different matter. He also wants to help his side and keep Generica from taking all their cities except the capital (that was the worst case scenario he imagined, which is not the worst case by the way). I think he should be really glad the he most likely just got support from an awakened tower who also seems to think the way Generica represents itself totally sucks. Otherwise he might have mortally offended the really powerful side whose goodwill he and his side depends upon...

    Interesting how both sides of this discussion are basically illustrating the example of the poor artist brother versus the wealthy engineer brother. It is also a great reference to the discussion in the previous page's thread about value.

    What do you value more: succes, or taste? The material, or the immaterial?

    If the first, you are likely to root for Generica and the engineer brother. If the latter, for Byrne and the artist brother.

    It is a matter of preference in which there is no good or bad. It is a matter of people being different and having different priorities / preferences / values.

    Which is something that few people can accept. Hence the ancient adage that debating about taste is useless (not sure how the english version of the adage goes).

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:50 pm 
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    Delores Mulva wrote:
    So when Genny (the Generica tower, obviously) finds out about breaking contracts, will she use that knowledge to break every advertising contract in the city to beautify it, and in the process communicate to the two Signamancers that contracts can be broken?

    For what it's worth, personally I don't think just any contract can be broken. Huehue first attempted to Dittomancy Caesar's will, and then used the Ditto to do a variety of things until he learned that a tower makes for a bad Dittomancer. Because it wasn't even just Huehue but the tower's conception of Caesar thatt signed, and because Huehue learned that it was all based on a bad misconception, he erased that signature. But it was all a part of him to begin with, and it was all a fraud even when signed (though parts of it had real effect).

    There's no reason to think he could do this to, say, Benjamin's actual signature, because all the other circumstances differ.

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:04 pm 
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    Delores Mulva wrote:
    So when Genny (the Generica tower, obviously) finds out about breaking contracts, will she use that knowledge to break every advertising contract in the city to beautify it, and in the process communicate to the two Signamancers that contracts can be broken?


    An outside chance - but keep in mind that the impetus to break the contract for TV was the leader sacrificing himself with thoughts of pure rage towards how things were. While I think that the tower would violate the contracts and take the penalties, I don’t think it would break the contract unless someone contracted an ad so annoying that it prompts a viceral reaction. I don’t think it will happen since I don’t see that ASPCA Sarah McLachlan ad.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:28 pm 
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    Metallicat wrote:
    The President keeps his advisory courtiers in a pretty cabinet. They don't say anything important, or anything at all so far.

    Generica's roots in America are pretty clear, and Byrne declares that they are one of the richest sides in the world (because nobody knows about Charlie's treasury, it is hard to say where they fall). Poor Underclock is in debt and maybe foreclosed on soon. I wonder if they have any other sides in the same situation?

    The Tower waking up time is going to be followed pretty fast by Jed's reveal about Charlescomm's juice theft. I'd imagine a money-making side is going to have some issues with that sort of thing.

    Silent E is gonna have to say something about his Tower changing, I'd think. Blame it all on the Byrne?

    I do wonder how "richest side" stacks up against GK and CC. Remember that Sizemore thought they were among the richest sides in the world after the Volcano blew a bunch of gems to the surface.

    Arcaninerulz wrote:
    Unlurking for a story submission and a comment :p.

    Relative to the two proluges, there's a Sign that as far as I can tell, no one commented on- the Signamancers commented on sharing Signs with their hands.

    That would (I think) be a shout out to American Sign Lagrange, which is literally, making hand shapes (signs) to convey meaning.

    No one is commenting on it because we've seen it before, between Janis and Annie Oakleaf.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:27 pm 
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    Umbrathor wrote:

    ...

    It is a matter of preference in which there is no good or bad. It is a matter of people being different and having different priorities / preferences / values.

    Which is something that few people can accept. Hence the ancient adage that debating about taste is useless (not sure how the english version of the adage goes).


    The Latin version, "De gustibus non disputandum est", is usually rendered in English as "There is no accounting for taste."

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:32 pm 
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    Thanks lipkin for point that out, that was quite a while ago :p

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