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 Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:58 pm 
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Nimelennar wrote:
OneHugeTuck wrote:
Nimelennar wrote:
TV was, in that moment, without a Ruler. It should have ended, like Unaroyal did. However, the authority that Huehue stole to Sign the contract with CC was enough like a Ruler for TV to continue existing for just long enough for an Heir to be created.


Not even a moment, I'd say. Huey say it happen, Caeser dying. In the moment or less than it that Caesar blinked away Huey did his thing.

Huey operates far faster than humans, as he is, let's say, more than human. You couldn't do it all in the blink of time, Huey could.

Meaning, IMHO, that Huey didn't hold things while time passed in which the side should have ended, the side shouldn't have ended because there was an heir during the blink that Caesar vanished.

Time enough had passed for Shirley to be surprised that the side hadn't ended.

Quote:
"How are you still alive?" Shirley asked him, in an elaborate Sign that was many questions in one.


She's fast too. I could easily be wrong. Still, Huey holds the keys, so whether he acted quickly enough (and it's new territory for Shirley too so there's plenty of room for me being right), and/or as Huey holds the keys to the kingdom he held Caesar's number in place in the system for a brief moment (which makes as much or more sense to me).

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:01 pm 
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    Twofer wrote:
    I've felt most of this way since Jed countered the Scroll, because it cemented that there was no way for Charlie to ever beat Parson, but at least other actions still mattered.


    I ask this out of curiosity, but I'm hoping you'll indulge me nevertheless... based on the above, are you either rooting for or significantly sympathizing with Charlie?

    I can TOTALLY get why folks like that, such as easter, would be (incredibly) frustrated with a lot of these developments.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:05 pm 
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    themunck wrote:
    ...Yes, Huehue signed something on Ceasar's behalf. We have no reason to suspect that was much different from any time Parson has signed something, and whenever that has happened, we've been told it's signamancy.
    {snip}

    Actually, this very update gives us good reason to suspect that this Signature is completely different than anytime Parson (or another Commander) has Signed something for a side:

    1) Huey says that the Sig is a forgery when answering Shirley's question about how he is still alive.

    2) This update says - "To Sign the Contract with Charlescomm, Huehue had created a false Signature to represent his Ruler's will."

    This is NOT "on behalf". This is a circumvention of the normal rules around the Signature that powers a contract.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:31 pm 
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    neko wrote:
    themunck wrote:
    ...Yes, Huehue signed something on Ceasar's behalf. We have no reason to suspect that was much different from any time Parson has signed something, and whenever that has happened, we've been told it's signamancy.
    {snip}

    Actually, this very update gives us good reason to suspect that this Signature is completely different than anytime Parson (or another Commander) has Signed something for a side:

    1) Huey says that the Sig is a forgery when answering Shirley's question about how he is still alive.

    2) This update says - "To Sign the Contract with Charlescomm, Huehue had created a false Signature to represent his Ruler's will."

    This is NOT "on behalf". This is a circumvention of the normal rules around the Signature that powers a contract.


    Indeed.

    The two other examples of contracts we've seen (B3p33, B3p324) both have written Signatures, the way Stupidworld thinks of a signature. And, in none of those cases did anyone sign a name that wasn't their own.

    This isn't Huehue signing as Huehue, on behalf of the side (the way Parson signed OBO Stanley and GK), this is the Tutelary signing as Caesar.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:58 pm 
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    For those concerned that Tutelaries Can Do Too Much, I suspect that Huehue's sins will have GRAVE consequences for him and his. His signamancy is of a civ ... that vanished. But that civ mattered.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:59 pm 
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    I keep seeing "Huey" around here, but I was under the impression that Huehue was pronounced "way-way", not rhyming with "Louie Louie". Is there anything official on that?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:12 pm 
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    themunck wrote:
    I must admit, I still don't see how the people can say the ditto thing didn't come more or less out of nowhere. Yes, Huehue signed something on Ceasar's behalf. We have no reason to suspect that was much different from any time Parson has signed something, and whenever that has happened, we've been told it's signamancy. The idea of dittomancy being involved in this at all wasn't just far-fetched, I am comfortable calling it completely unforshadowed.

    Just....one mention of dittomancy being involved in contracts, anywhere, would've helped.The two disciplines aren't on the same axis and have never been hinted towards being related.


    Yes, the ditto thing did come out of nowhere. But a tower being able to hold on to the side for just a little bit before it dispands, and appointing an heir is not out of nowhere. That is within the power levels of what we know about towers. The story could have easily gone so that Huehue appointed an heir just before Caesar hit the portal, Huehue temporarily delays Caesars disbandment (similar to how Jed Held Parson in place), or in the fraction of the second it takes for the side to end after the ruler dies, the tower is able to appoint the heir. The fact is there are a number of ways that it could have been done. The temporary ditto was just story flavour. Huehue being able to do something though, is a reasonable assumption.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:14 pm 
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    labster wrote:
    I keep seeing "Huey" around here, but I was under the impression that Huehue was pronounced "way-way", not rhyming with "Louie Louie". Is there anything official on that?

    Why did you think it was pronounced that way? I've been mentally pronouncing it like the word "hue" said twice.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:16 pm 
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    greycat wrote:
    Arci wrote:
    I've been doing some thinking about Numbers.

    As a computer programmer myself, I'll tell you my immediate gut reactions to the recent use of Number.

    In large computer programs written in C, most data are stored in little chunks of memory that are allocated on the fly. In order to keep track of them all, each one has a pointer which is used to tell the computer where it is. This pointer is a memory address. It's a Number.

    In my mental model of Erfworld-as-a-computer-simulation, everything that's not a permanent feature of the landscape is allocated and tracked by these pointers (Numbers). If you want to cast a spell on someone, the spell needs a target, and that target is the pointer to the "struct unit" or whatever the spell function takes as its parameter. If someone Signs a contract, they're storing their Number in the contract's Signatory field. And so on.

    When Huehue copied Caesar's Number, it was a variable of type (struct unit *) whose value was the 64-bit (or however-many-bit) memory address corresponding to Caesar's data structure. Which is to say, his String.

    Anyway, that's my take on things.



    However Numbers work in Erfworld, this update shows us that Huehue -- and the other Tutelaries -- can work directly with them. This is analogous to hacking memory locations in a computer program.

    Or as Parson once wished for, *cheat mode*.

    One of the things that a tutorial menu can do in video games is the cheat modes. Sure, if you use them, you are cheating -- and may have to pay some sort of penalty in game (or in many single player games, be unable to record a winning score).

    We know that they aren't supposed to cheat, but DeIsaac essentially called the Arkentools and what Charlie was doing cheats (even the Wonky Wrench). Exactly when does a game exploit change from being just a clever way to use the rules to a way to cheat the game?

    Remember also, Parson's long ago challenge to his players was to break the rules of the game in order to win. Parson has been trying to find a way to break Erfworld rules, as Charlie has. Will he be happy if he learns that the awakened towers can break the rules?


    If everyone playing a multiplayer video game is cheating, the results rather resemble a doomsday of chaotic events, with no one able to know how or why things are happening.

    Fortunately, I think that there are some hard limits on just how far the towers can go to break the rules. But I don't think that the limit is less that what Charlie has already pulled off with Charlescomm.

    The only deep, dark question is just how bad the in game penalties are for cheating, and if they will come up before one side wins or ends the game.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:21 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    labster wrote:
    I keep seeing "Huey" around here, but I was under the impression that Huehue was pronounced "way-way", not rhyming with "Louie Louie". Is there anything official on that?

    Why did you think it was pronounced that way? I've been mentally pronouncing it like the word "hue" said twice.


    https://wiki.erfworld.com/Huehue

    Because it is a Nahuatl word, like the language that Huehue uses. Also kind of like what Caesar was saying as he was being choked. And similar to the modern Mexican Spanish pronunciation of it.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:38 pm 
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    barwhack wrote:
    For those concerned that Tutelaries Can Do Too Much, I suspect that Huehue's sins will have GRAVE consequences for him and his. His signamancy is of a civ ... that vanished. But that civ mattered.

    I actually don't think Tutelaries are as overpowered as everyone thinks they are. The powers are just new, so it gives sides new options. But casters and even high level warlords are probably more powerfull. Think about it. If you are a ruler of a new side, and you had the option to gain one of the following first, a warlord, a caster, or a tower, which would you choose? the tower is #3 on my list. Towers can just provide the following:

    - offer information and advice
    - act as a surrogate ruler
    - control moving parts inside the tower (doors, running water, the arkendish, ect)
    - collapse/destroy itself as a unit (but I don't think they can cause just parts to collapase on invaders like a dirtamancer trap, or Huehue could have done that to Bill)
    - some minor thinkamancy/datemancy and (and probably monemancy) through the threads that
    connect units to their tower.
    - steal juice from the source. (But then so was Charlie. In most situations though the towers would not do this, and would stop you from doing tricks to do it)

    And I think that is about it. I thinkamancer with a linkup is way more powered then a tower. The tower powers are just new, which provides new options, so they seem more powered then they actually are.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:08 pm 
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    Nimelennar wrote:
    If it were a pointer, and not a copy of the data in memory, shouldn't the value in the Ditto's isAlive field be the same as Caesar's, in which case it wouldn't prevent the side from ending upon his disbanding?

    I think it depends on the copy. Dittomancy shows that a copy can survive past the death of the original. This is probably possible as a non-cheat because dittos already have a limited lifespan, they disband/croak at the end of the turn. If the mind/heart copy that Huehue created was similar then it could keep the side alive for a minute or two.

    greycat wrote:
    As a computer programmer myself, I'll tell you my immediate gut reactions to the recent use of Number.

    In large computer programs written in C, most data are stored in little chunks of memory that are allocated on the fly. In order to keep track of them all, each one has a pointer which is used to tell the computer where it is. This pointer is a memory address. It's a Number.

    In my mental model of Erfworld-as-a-computer-simulation, everything that's not a permanent feature of the landscape is allocated and tracked by these pointers (Numbers). If you want to cast a spell on someone, the spell needs a target, and that target is the pointer to the "struct unit" or whatever the spell function takes as its parameter. If someone Signs a contract, they're storing their Number in the contract's Signatory field. And so on.

    When Huehue copied Caesar's Number, it was a variable of type (struct unit *) whose value was the 64-bit (or however-many-bit) memory address corresponding to Caesar's data structure. Which is to say, his String.

    Anyway, that's my take on things.


    That is an interesting concept. While I don't strictly adhere to the "Erfworld as computer" theory, (I don't strictly adhere to pretty much ANY theory) yet I find it interesting. I've recently been juggling the idea that our IRL reality is made of information. Not in a "the Matrix is real" kind of way, but more in a "the smallest pieces of existance can be expressed as information" kind of way.

    At the very least a fantasy part of my mind that enjoys the idea of transformative interdimensional travel likes the idea, as it means that extradimensional travel would require a form of translation of the "reality information" anyway.

    So, Numbers as a "block" of data... Let's compare.
    Mathamancy... calculates the data as raw data, with no part for the matter or motion of this data.
    Weirdomancy... moves the relationships between the small parts of a block. (a Weirdomancer can give/take the flying special, so a special can be seen as a small part of the big block of data, so a weirdomancer can disconnect or transfer the connection)
    Dittomancy... duplicates blocks, or at least parts of a block, of data
    Foolamancy... creates a false block of data, or false form of the exterior thereof
    Date-a-mancy... forms comparisons between blocks of data
    Retconjuration... NULL
    Rhyme-o-mancy... um... I'm not sure, sorry it's been a long day and my brain is tired.
    Moneymancy... converts shmuckers into the direct creation of the blocks of data.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:19 pm 
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    Ansan Gotti wrote:
    Twofer wrote:
    I've felt most of this way since Jed countered the Scroll, because it cemented that there was no way for Charlie to ever beat Parson, but at least other actions still mattered.


    I ask this out of curiosity, but I'm hoping you'll indulge me nevertheless... based on the above, are you either rooting for or significantly sympathizing with Charlie?

    I can TOTALLY get why folks like that, such as easter, would be (incredibly) frustrated with a lot of these developments.


    A bit, but that's not what I'm thinking. Spoilers for The Lion King and Kung Fu Panda 2:

    In LK, there's a scene where the villain Scar has good guy Mufasa at his mercy, dangling off a cliff, and tosses him in. It's one of the finest moments in all cinema. I wasn't rooting for Scar, or against Mufasa, but it was incredibly powerful: it drove the plot and hero Simba's character development, and it paid into a callback later. Scar has Simba at his mercy, dangling off another cliff, and in that moment ... you might think Simba will win, because he's The hero and Mufasa was only A hero, but you probably thought Mufasa would survive, so you'd have to second-guess yourself at least a little. There's serious suspense in that second scene, and the catharsis when Simba triumphs is incredible.

    In KFP2, there's a scene where the villain Shen has hero Po at his mercy, with a cannon pointed at him; he shoots, and Po blocks with a wok. Po is punted out a tower, and promptly walks it off. I wasn't rooting for Shen or against Po, but it was incredibly weak: it was a cheap way to get Po away for a bit, the character development borne of everyone thinking he was dead was undermined when they found out he wasn't really, and it white-anted a callback later. Shen has him surrounded by cannon, but the first time was practically a notarised declaration that the writers would never let anything bad happen to him, so at most I wondered which ass pull would save him this time, and at worst I didn't care either way.

    I like Charlie -- he has style -- but I won't mind if he loses. I like a good villain, and I like a good villain's downfall. What I don't want is to feel like how I felt during the second scene from KFP2.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:20 pm 
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    I've read the whole thread, and one thing I don't think anyone mentioned yet is how super appropriate it is from a thematic perspective that an Aztec/Mayan god gets powers from human sacrifice. And I guess I don't mind literal gods in the setting as long as their powers make sense thematically.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:00 pm 
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    Sir Dr D wrote:
    Yes, the ditto thing did come out of nowhere.

    No. It didn't.

    Page 341 shows Huehue making the copy of Caesar, we just didn't realize the relevance until now. A unit's number is literally who they are. A unit's number can change (it becomes 0 when they are dead), so by transcribing Caesar's number from memory, Huehue recreated a previous version of Caesar and then put his own will behind it.

    This is like if a transporter in Star Trek reassembled someone based upon a saved pattern, rather than from a fresh scan.

    Because lying in the Source is impossible, the only way Huehue could sign for Caesar was to create a version of Caesar. This was all set up before Epilogue 2.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:11 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    Sir Dr D wrote:
    Yes, the ditto thing did come out of nowhere.

    No. It didn't.

    Page 341 shows Huehue making the copy of Caesar, we just didn't realize the relevance until now. A unit's number is literally who they are. A unit's number can change (it becomes 0 when they are dead), so by transcribing Caesar's number from memory, Huehue recreated a previous version of Caesar and then put his own will behind it.

    This is like if a transporter in Star Trek reassembled someone based upon a saved pattern, rather than from a fresh scan.

    Because lying in the Source is impossible, the only way Huehue could sign for Caesar was to create a version of Caesar. This was all set up before Epilogue 2.


    Something just occurred to me. On page 341, Huehue mentioned having Signed the agreement by transcribing Caesar's Number, as you said. Given that this transcription and copying of Caesar's number functioned as a Dittoing of Caesar, if only for a time, that means that Caesar's Number included, as a part of it, his function as a Ruler. Which means that Caesar's Number — or any unit's Number — changes as their role changes. It probably changes as they grow and change over time. And that sounds an awful lot like a unit's String.
    So a unit's Number might be nothing more than a representation of its String in Mathamancy terms!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:12 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    Sir Dr D wrote:
    Yes, the ditto thing did come out of nowhere.

    No. It didn't.

    Page 341 shows Huehue making the copy of Caesar, we just didn't realize the relevance until now. A unit's number is literally who they are. A unit's number can change (it becomes 0 when they are dead), so by transcribing Caesar's number from memory, Huehue recreated a previous version of Caesar and then put his own will behind it.

    This is like if a transporter in Star Trek reassembled someone based upon a saved pattern, rather than from a fresh scan.

    Because lying in the Source is impossible, the only way Huehue could sign for Caesar was to create a version of Caesar. This was all set up before Epilogue 2.



    You are right. You can see the ditto'ed Caeasar in that picture. And then there is text such as "The number which would be contained in Tlatoani's own Signature (to mark the forumula of his identity", Huehue carefully transcribed himself. As the source of his upkeep, and the pillar of the side that Caesar Bogata ruled, Huehue could write this Number from his own memory."


    It talked about the ditto without saying it directly. Only after the fact can we understand what it meant.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:02 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    labster wrote:
    I keep seeing "Huey" around here, but I was under the impression that Huehue was pronounced "way-way", not rhyming with "Louie Louie". Is there anything official on that?

    Why did you think it was pronounced that way? I've been mentally pronouncing it like the word "hue" said twice.

    Nahuatl uses Spanish orthography -- actually, because of the "x" is pronounced /ʃ/, it's closer to Old Spanish. Though I wouldn't be surprised if it was pronounced differently in the story because of some ingenious pun. But the only pun I know of is 304, panel 1, where Caesar is choking, and it's ambiguous.

    Other than that, we're coming to the conclusion that Erfworld is made from strings, pointers, and data pipes connected to a central Source unit. So do the Arkenpliers assign a new Number to a unit before its data is GC'ed? Does the Arkenhammer do a rowhammer? Do the Arkenshoes let you dance a fandango on core? Still, I think that the computer perspective is only part of the picture.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:16 am 
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    Does anyone else think, what with all the tutelaries opining about how awful they are for stealing rom the source, that they are going to be punished in the future? That they will be nerfed? That we will see them humbled? A young god is often humbled.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:17 am 
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    E is for Erfworld Supporter Battle Crest Pins Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter
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    I always figured that number magic was numerological in some way.

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