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 Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:08 pm 
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ShaneTheBrain wrote:
Music I wrote 5(!!) years go now appropriate for Caesar's farewell:

https://soundcloud.com/shane-wegner/transylvito

Old music that is now Sky Appletini's battle anthem!

https://shanewegner.bandcamp.com/track/aztez-battle

I'uno. Maybe my Numbers Sync correctly with Erfworld or something.


Great job! Loved them both.

One of the great things about movies is their ability to pair an epic scene with an epic soundtrack. Like the gorgeous orchestral piece during the cliffside finale in Last of the Mohicans. Or The Chain during the final battle in Guardians of the Galaxy 2. Or Immigrant Song in Thor: Ragnarok.

Right now I’ve got the intro shredding guitar riff from 311’s “Down” going through my mind as a slow-mo Skyy brings her scepterifle to bear and starts opening up full auto.

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Here's my "Charlie as Hitler" Downfall video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-EA8xQOf_s

When you're a bat, you're a bat all the way. From your first starting stat, 'til the turn you decay.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:09 pm 
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    ManaCaster wrote:
    I don't particularly care about the definition of "Deus ex Machina", but when a story resolves its conflicts by suddenly rewriting the rules, that's generally bad for dramatic tension. Towers are OP.

    I don't think the story has rewritten any rules; it has merely exposed more of the underlying mechanics. It was never very clear how exactly contracts work, what the tutelaries (or, for that matter, even the Arkentools) are, what makes royals royal and so on. In this set of epilogues, we're finally finding out at least parts of this.

    If you want an analogue from Earth, in the twentieth century we discovered certain aspects of our universe's underlying mechanics which led to certain ridiculously overpowered weapons. However, this doesn't mean that the rules were rewritten: fission and fusion have always been possible and have in fact been going on all along. The rules are the same, it's understanding them that's game breaking.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:17 pm 
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    I'll be fine with this unexpected turn of events if it means we're done with ceasefire contract mechanics for a while. (Eg. because the original ceasefire is already gone, because TV was doing everything it could to comply with the agreement made, as with foraging the bodies.).

    If the next arc is about "oh, the original ceasefire is back, let's exploit that" it will be possibly the most tiresome thing ever to happen in Erfworld - and that's saying something given how much trouble Parson has going through doors.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:21 pm 
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    Ansan Gotti wrote:
    As others have mentioned, Erfworld is all about surprise and powerful game mechanics. That's the story we've been reading since Book One. It has maintained that excellence of story ever since, and even though I think the culmination of Book One was utter brilliance hard to surpass, I think there have been times (including this very page) where Rob has done it.

    Cheats are a major theme of Erfworld, but personally, I feel that this one was clumsily done.

    Althernai wrote:
    it has merely exposed more of the underlying mechanics.

    The volcano was foreshadowed. This one didn't exactly receive much setup. Suddenly being able to rip up contracts and promote heirs for "free" is a huge deal.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:00 pm 
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    ManaCaster wrote:
    Ansan Gotti wrote:
    As others have mentioned, Erfworld is all about surprise and powerful game mechanics. That's the story we've been reading since Book One. It has maintained that excellence of story ever since, and even though I think the culmination of Book One was utter brilliance hard to surpass, I think there have been times (including this very page) where Rob has done it.

    Cheats are a major theme of Erfworld, but personally, I feel that this one was clumsily done.

    Althernai wrote:
    it has merely exposed more of the underlying mechanics.

    The volcano was foreshadowed. This one didn't exactly receive much setup. Suddenly being able to rip up contracts and promote heirs for "free" is a huge deal.


    This is a callback to Book 2 (remember how along Slately did exactly this?) and no, they didn’t get to promote a heir for free. The Signed contract with GK means that the cost for promoting a heir was transferred automagically to TV to cover for this cost.

    It’s been setup, it’s just that it wasn’t obvious.

    Skyy’s rise to heir was foreshadowed as well.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:08 pm 
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    Being able to steal power from the portal was established as part of Charlie's OPness. Several other characters used it over the brief time it has been known.

    Being able to do a thing that is routine but at a cost measured in a different dimension than "schmuckers" isn't a new power.

    The Temples being able to interact with layers of the rules not accessible to units was also established. And the units were told about how signamancy prevented the understanding of the contract requiring the same meaning for both parties, or it couldn't be Signed. The backlash from breaking a Rule so basic that the Rules don't have rules for how to implement it can certainly interfere with lesser things.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:14 pm 
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    The Great Minds could already bypass well written contracts in magic kingdom, apparently there are levels of quality to contracts as Hippies made a better one yet so would take some time for Great Minds to figure out how to bypass/cheat the next one. Shirley made a weak contract, and TV signed it with a forgery/ditto.

    Perhaps an attempt to tear up contract is similar to an attempt to cast a spell, there is a risk of failure with nasty consequences to own side and a reputation loss among all sides... but in this case the odds got a big boost from Caesar's sacrifice.


    Last edited by multilis on Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:15 pm 
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    Just had a thought. A bunch of super-powerful, sentient Towers who interact with their own mercurial Rulers and create a bunch of OP chaos is pretty much the ultimate nightmare scenario for the uptight, controlling, orderly cabal of the GMTTA. No question they’d want to shut off that Erfworld feature and seal away from everyone even the memory of it.

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    When you're a bat, you're a bat all the way. From your first starting stat, 'til the turn you decay.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:16 pm 
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    ObliqueFault wrote:
    Despite being female, the Tzitzimimeh had rattlesnake penises.


    Don't all women?

    Umbrathor wrote:
    I expected this particular move, though I thought it would be Benjamin who would use juice to promote someone to Heir, thus showing it to be natural Moneymancy.


    You know ... until reading the comments here I didn't know promoting an heir could be done off-turn. Having read that, and now your comment I can't help but hope Rob's got something planned that required Huehue to have done what he did the way he did, otherwise Huehue could've given Ben that stolen juice and then (maybe) Ben could've appointed Sky as the heir. That might've cut off some of this deus ex Machina BS.

    The only problem I can see with that course of action is that it probably all would've needed to be done in less than a blink of an eye and it could've also been a stretch to think that the process of Huehue recognizing the act, stealing the juice, giving it to Ben, Ben realizing not only what was happening but that he had the juice, and what he could do with it - and then doing it - all that may have been too much for a blink of an eye.


    Last edited by Fla_Panther on Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:16 pm 
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    danixdefcon5 wrote:
    This is a callback to Book 2 (remember how along Slately did exactly this?)

    It has already been established that rulers can promote heirs. Extending that to a copied ruler isn't a huge stretch. Extending that to a forged contract signature that has nothing to do with promoting heirs when we didn't have any indication this was possible on the other hand...

    danixdefcon5 wrote:
    and no, they didn’t get to promote a heir for free. The Signed contract with GK means that the cost for promoting a heir was transferred automagically to TV to cover for this cost.

    The contract only covers upkeep. The update outright says that Huehue stole it from the source.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:20 pm 
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    So Huehue pretty much just killed Don’s and Vanna’s child to promote Skyy, huh? If I didn’t have some spite for the two, I might have felt some pity.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:32 pm 
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    Short version, rules of Erfworld weren't broken, and the precedence for all of it exists in the past pages.

    The ditto (The Number) is incomplete, and under HueHues command, but it still has the ruler signamancy, so it can sign for the ruler, and designate an heir.

    Caeser did NOT want the deal, but he DID want Transylvito to matter and Charlie to NOT win. The deal standing or either Transylvito falling violates what Caeser wanted most of all. (Other than having Bunny)

    This revelation to HueHue (upon Caesers suicide via portal) caused him to realize that the ditto's signature to the deal was invalid since Caeser was absolutely opposed to it, and that he had to save the side. The only way to do that was with an heir. So he stole power from the source to accomplish that while he still could.
    Stealing power isn't against Erfworld, it's just against the rules the Temples play by, and they've done that before. Also, Charlie has been doing it for a very long time as well. So nothing about Erfworld doesn't allow it.

    So nothing about Erfworld was violated, but that's not going to stop Charlie from freaking out, or Shirley figuratively screaming her head off about it either.

    As to us readers. Just sit back and enjoy. Even though all this was given precedence by the previous pages, I don't think anyone of us could have predicted this 'turn' of events ;) (I certainly didn't)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:51 pm 
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    strange7person wrote:
    Umbrathor wrote:
    strange7person wrote:
    [..]I think, that Charlescomm's unilateral ceasefire agreement toward Transylvito is still in effect.

    No, it ended when the contract was Signed. The TV-CC contract getting unSigned does not mean that the Original Ceasefire is thereby reinstated. Just as the schmuckers TV paid to CC are not automagically transferred back into TV's treasury, nor the 25 mil that was paid to GK. Nor will Bunny's body become unforaged. What is done, is done.

    Bunny's body being foraged was not the sort of thing that could be done, much less undone, automagically. Modifications to previous contracts, though, definitely can be done automagically. Records of the previous ceasefire must have existed, if only to serve as a reference for the new 'reverse of.' Nullifying the contract which nullified-and-replaced it might simply modify that record once again, removing "archival, no longer valid" tag.

    As a further argument, Fate wants to wreck Charlie as severely as possible, for a whole stack of reasons. Arranging for him to be hoist by his own contractual petard seems like the kind of quick and subtle, yet far-reaching (and dramatically ironic) tweak that Fate traditionally specializes in.

    Giving TV the unique ability to strike at Charlescomm with minimal fear of retaliation would also thoroughly satisfy Ceasar's wish that his side become relevant as a player in the larger conflict.

    Basically what we disagree about, is whether removing the signature from a contract merely ends the outstanding contractual obligations, or whether it also automagically undoes previously fulfilled obligations, as far as they can be undone automagically.

    While I consider the latter unlikely, it might be possible.

    Your further 'argument' basically says: if the story needs it to work that way, it will. True. But Rob is known for taking the rules of the game (world) he designed quite seriously. he wouldn't violate the rules just because it would help futher the plot. So it pays to try and figure out the rules. Saying that it will help the story, or that a character would have wanted it that way, does not change the rules - or the likelyhood of them working this way or that way.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:54 pm 
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    ManaCaster wrote:
    I don't particularly care about the definition of "Deus ex Machina", but when a story resolves its conflicts by suddenly rewriting the rules, that's generally bad for dramatic tension. Towers are OP.



    The towers have been the cause of these recent conflict. If HueHue hadn't awakened and told Caesar to disband Bill, Bill wouldn't have panicked. Charlie was negotionating with Bill as a trump card, if he needed it. But Charlies main plan was to try to make peace with Caesar, otherwise Charlie woudn't have sent those bullets in the hat.


    So this recent conflict in TV was started in part by involvement in HueHue, had its nature changed
    as a result of the towers, and finally had HueHue involved in its resolution. Not to mention Shirly from Charlies point of view is more of a hindrance then an aid. The story is not resolving itself with the addition of the towers. The towers are characters that are interacting with the story as much as anyone else, and causing conflict as much as resolving them.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:07 pm 
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    ManaCaster wrote:
    danixdefcon5 wrote:
    This is a callback to Book 2 (remember how along Slately did exactly this?)

    It has already been established that rulers can promote heirs. Extending that to a copied ruler isn't a huge stretch. Extending that to a forged contract signature that has nothing to do with promoting heirs when we didn't have any indication this was possible on the other hand...



    Well towers do connect all units to the source, the ruler to it units, and holds a side together, and we already know they can steal from the source when needed. A tower has all the same senses a ruler does, and can act as a surrogate for the ruler. It is not that far of a stretch to say that an entity that can do all that, can do a few tricks to hold the side together in a pinch.


    But I do agree that things did sound a bit left field this update.It would have helped more if in a previous update, it talked about how the towers created conceptual dittos in order to sign the contract on behalf of the rulers. If that was done, then this update would have sounded more reasonable.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:54 pm 
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    What if Skyy's attempt to switch sides is completed?

    She only need say "I accept", and she effectively defects with her entire Kingdom in tow, to the side of Gobwin Knob. It would nullify the peace treaty with CC, since one party in the negotiation would cease to exist.

    As a ruler-level defector joining GK, would it automatically make her heir to GK?

    And it would completely trump Huehue and Charlie. And Parson for that matter.

    In any event, Wanda's role of heavy metal goth girl has been quickly taken over. Those eyes on the knees and elbows are massive giveaways.

    TOOL the band.
    Arken Tool.
    Love it.

    Love the band. Love The Pot. Love Rosetta Stoned. Love H. The Patient. Triad. Hooker with a Penis. Vicarious.

    If this Skyy is anything as powerful as the band Tool, she WILL matter.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:00 pm 
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    Not sure if it just Team Fortress 2 is on my mind or not. Though between it being used a references in Erfworld before (like the Engineer), Skyy Queen having a golden gun, and all the Dolls are grey...

    Perhaps this 'Moneymancy' gun that some people speculated will award Shmuckers for a successful kill? (In reference to Mann vs Machine in TF2, where Grey Mann's robots literally run on cash. Allowing the Mercenaries to earn money by killing them)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:00 pm 
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    This is an epic update.

    Just want to say... I called it!

    Its my first successful predictamancy.

    I'm so excited.

    ~runs off~

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:54 pm 
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    Biostar wrote:
    So Huehue pretty much just killed Don’s and Vanna’s child to promote Skyy, huh? If I didn’t have some spite for the two, I might have felt some pity.


    It will be interesting to see how far Shirley goes in enabling Charlie to cheat after this. The heir is dead, the contract was nullified, Huehue cheated with the Source, the CC units in TV are likely about to be croaked, and TV has overt "bad guy" signamancy, even more so than before. She should be livid, and that might tempt her to violate her moral code just to get back at TV.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:59 pm 
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    Where did it say anything about killing the heir?

    Huehue just stole juice from the source to make Skyy the heir. The city is still popping an heir.

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