Forum    Members    Search    FAQ

Board index » Erfworld Things » Reactions




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 427 posts ] 
 
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:45 am 
Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Mined 4 Erf
Offline
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:25 pm
Posts: 19
Is it just me, or does Skyy's gun now have the 3D sheen of a Tool?

:shock:

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:51 am 
    User avatar
    Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit This user is a Tool! Mined 4 Erf Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day Hearts Suit Pip Clubs Suit Pip Won Mine4erf for the Marbits
    Offline
    Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:34 am
    Posts: 376
    Holy boop!

    I'll freely admit I didn't see any of this happening. It looks like I also missed a detail where Bunny's body disappeared. I think I would have understood that to be the point where Caesar has nothing left to live for, and a powerful need to stop existing.

    Poor man. He was a flawed person but a deeply sympathetic character.

    Even so, I think we're still going to see our Velveteen Rabbit become a real girl, one way or another.

  • Tipped by 1 person!
  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:54 am 
    User avatar
    Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit This user is a Tool! Mined 4 Erf Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day Hearts Suit Pip Clubs Suit Pip Won Mine4erf for the Marbits
    Offline
    Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:34 am
    Posts: 376
    Btw, the gilded assault rifle as a ruler's scepter. Amazing touch <3

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:58 am 
    User avatar
    This user is a Tool! Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Mined 4 Erf Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day Won Mine4erf for the Gobwins Won Mine4erf for the Marbits
    Offline
    Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2015 9:27 am
    Posts: 934
    Adept wrote:
    It looks like I also missed a detail where Bunny's body disappeared.

    It was never explicitly spelled out until this page, but a few of the sharper forum members (not me) managed to read between the lines.

    Under the new treaty, Bunny's corpse (or proof of its destruction) was one of the things that were supposed to be surrendered to Charlescomm. Ben and Skyy ordered the Doombats to start foraging on the corpses to destroy them, rather than surrender them to CC.

  • Tipped by 3 people!
  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:05 am 
    User avatar
    This user has been published! This user is a Tool! Has collected at least one unit Here for the 10th Anniversary Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day Mined 4 Erf Won Mine4erf for the Gobwins Diamonds Suit Pip Clubs Suit Pip Won Mine4erf for the Marbits Spades Suit Pip
    Offline
    Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:32 pm
    Posts: 241
    What an amazing twist! I gotta be honest: For the longest time I thought about Skyy and her blonde rival "Why do we need even more supporting characters?", but you, Sir, had a great plan for Skyy right from the beginning and ever since she started gunning down the dolls it became more and more interesting to see her develop and also the rivalry was fun to watch. Also now that Don, Bunny, Caesar and Bill are dead (and who knows what's going to happen to Vanna next) you have more than evened it out. :)

    I am sooooo curious how Charlie is going to react to that. Contract not only loop-holed but outright cancelled and GK having a large treasury again, I believe that these two sides should be right at the top of CC's list by now. If I were Charlie I would stop messing around and just straight up attack city after city from both GK and TV. Of course he's a Carny, so he'll never stop messing around.

  • Tipped by 1 person!
  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:09 am 
    User avatar
    This user is a Tool! Here for the 10th Anniversary Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter Has collected at least one unit Mined 4 Erf Won Mine4erf for the Gobwins Won Mine4erf for the Marbits Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day For when you need it most Clubs Suit Pip Hearts Suit Pip Spades Suit Pip Diamonds Suit Pip
    Offline
    Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:25 pm
    Posts: 290
    Adept wrote:
    Even so, I think we're still going to see our Velveteen Rabbit become a real girl, one way or another.

    Huh? She became a Real Girl(TM) instead. And there is no reason to bring her back without Caesar, who isn't coming back.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:10 am 
    User avatar
    Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day This user is a Tool!
    Offline
    Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:35 am
    Posts: 2607
    Location: Wales... New South Wales
    elecampane wrote:
    And while you don't necessarily have to establish historical or mythical figures, you still need to introduce them to the plot, what's their part there, etc.
    As "Machinima" bit already was answered I'll just add that no, if Jed turned an egg into an omelette it wouldn't be deus ex machina: Jed can be deus, but there's no machina, he is aready on the stage. If he were to suddenly come to rescue the omeleteless adventurers lost in the wild and dying of starvation - then such frying would be Deus ex machina, otherwise it is only a frixum ovum ex Deus (or some such)

    Let's just agree that the real Deus (ex) Machina is Snipp(y/t) the Arkenpliers.

    You know, under acount of him being a machine of the gods.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:16 am 
    User avatar
    This user is a Tool! Has collected at least one unit Won Mine4erf for the Marbits Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day
    Offline
    Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:56 pm
    Posts: 2613
    What the hell?! You can just STEAL the power of designating an heir without paying for it? And he just ripped up a contract that was Signed. I... I...

    I got nothing. That changes everything.

    _________________
    Raise them up, Don't let them Down! has returned. Please check out my story. Last updated December 18, 2018.

    Screw you guys, I'm a Polar bear now. Art by my very good friend, Arieann Pentagon.

    Old Cyborg pony pic:
    Full Image.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:20 am 
    Here for the 10th Anniversary
    Offline
    Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 2:46 pm
    Posts: 9
    I understand how HueHue feels, with all these people trying to twist the definition of Deus Ex Machina to fit what just happenned instead of maybe having more words for ways that stories develop.

  • Tipped by 4 people!
  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:02 am 
    Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
    Offline
    Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:06 am
    Posts: 2148
    I don't particularly care about the definition of "Deus ex Machina", but when a story resolves its conflicts by suddenly rewriting the rules, that's generally bad for dramatic tension. Towers are OP.

  • Tipped by 1 person!
  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:19 am 
    User avatar
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Year of the Dwagon Supporter This user has been published! Armored Dwagon Monthly Winner Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit This user got funny with a rodent Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter This user is a Tool! Mined 4 Erf Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day Won Mine4erf for the Gobwins Spades Suit Pip Erfmover Supporter Royal Scepter Supporter Sometimes They Even Fail
    Offline
    Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 3:45 am
    Posts: 1042
    ManaCaster wrote:
    I don't particularly care about the definition of "Deus ex Machina", but when a story resolves its conflicts by suddenly rewriting the rules, that's generally bad for dramatic tension. Towers are OP.


    Responding to you specifically, but also to others a little more broadly: folks, towers are SUPPOSED to be OP. The capital sites are the entire ball game for Erfworld. You lose your capital, and catastrophe strikes, and only if you have another capital site do you have any chance of continuing with your side.

    They provide the upkeep for the entire side, they pop units -- hence Dittomancy is well within what I would perceive as their powers -- they have all sorts of special nuances that other cities don't. The seat of a Ruler's own extensive powers is based in the capital, and Rob has established the various interconnections there with H-strings and the like.

    So it shouldn't be any surprise that a Tower made SENTIENT will be even more powerful, and there are hints that the GMTTA were so concerned about this that they perhaps were the ones who shut them down.

    Add to this a sentient Tower who's willing to cheat, as more and more of them appear to be willing? Yes, definitely OP! And maybe an escalation in this very dynamic is what led to the GMTTA concerns.

    But you know what else is OP? Tri-links. Not to mention State 7 links.

    As others have mentioned, Erfworld is all about surprise and powerful game mechanics. That's the story we've been reading since Book One. It has maintained that excellence of story ever since, and even though I think the culmination of Book One was utter brilliance hard to surpass, I think there have been times (including this very page) where Rob has done it.

    Anyway, just another perspective for you. :)

    _________________
    Here's my "Charlie as Hitler" Downfall video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-EA8xQOf_s

    When you're a bat, you're a bat all the way. From your first starting stat, 'til the turn you decay.

  • Tipped by 7 people!
  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:26 pm 
    User avatar
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter This user was a Tool before it was cool Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter This user is a Tool! Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day Spades Suit Pip
    Offline
    Joined: Sun May 24, 2009 4:28 am
    Posts: 1032
    Anomynous 167 wrote:
    Quoted in reverse order of what I wrote.
    Sod off. I'm not complaining when I'm calling it Deus Ex Machinima. You harken back in your reference to Greek narrative traditions, but it is precisely those traditions that cause me to label the events that have transpired as Deus Ex Machinima.

    The Tutelaries are city gods. By virtue of that Jed can't turn an egg into an omlete, without being the embodyment of Deus-poliscivitas ex Machinima.

    Something doesn't stop becoming Deus ex Machinima just because there is a plausible explanation for everything. Jed could toss the egg into a frying pan, poor half a cup of milk into it, stir it all and then place it over an open fire and the existance of the omlet would still be a deus ex machina.

    ===

    edit; Having Greek gods show up to fix everything isn't inexplicable or sudden anyways, since an author doesn't have to establish historical figures. These gods were always there (except during the era of the titans, when they weren't born yet). You'd have to be a barbarian to think their sudden emergence to cause your suspension of disbelief to be strained.


    You've managed to sidestep the parts of the long argument I made that don't fit with your angry assertions, so I'll reiterate them. Even if, as you suppose, the tutularies are 'gods' (and I wish to reiterate that I think this is an oversimplification of their role in the story), why does it matter?

    Even if they exist to perform deux ex machina for the story like you claim, why does that make them bad characters? The bad guy has a tutelary. The 'good guys' have a tutelary. Even the mary sue warrior queen has one. So the fact that Huehue is here doing these things is just par for the course for the story.

    These are fundamental totems of Erfworld given life and voice. I think it's fascinating to see the implications they have on Erfworld, not frustrating.

    It would be like if you gave power lines a face and voice and will. They are still power lines, and they still exist for the function of distributing power to your city, but now they can choose to distribute power with direction, as they are no longer mindless. What if they decided they were now angry with you and would no longer power your home? The fact that something you took for granted and is vital to your daily existence can now be taken away by an angry entity is probably scary. But are these living power lines Gods for holding the mighty energies that flow from your city's power plant at their whims?

    Not really, no. Some people might try to worship them I expect, and maybe make them offerings, in the hope of ensuring their continued power. Maybe a stupid Powerologist religion might spring up. But that doesn't make them gods any more than a man with a weather control machine descending on primitives with spears is a rain god, regardless of how they are treated.

    _________________
    UNLESS someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It's not.


    Last edited by Kaed on Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  • Tipped by 3 people!
  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:28 pm 
    User avatar
    Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
    Offline
    Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2014 5:06 pm
    Posts: 68
    Ansan Gotti wrote:
    They [capital sites] provide the upkeep for the entire side, they pop units


    All cities pop units.

  • Tipped by 2 people!
  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:31 pm 
    Offline
    Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:25 pm
    Posts: 191
    Umbrathor wrote:
    strange7person wrote:
    [..]I think, that Charlescomm's unilateral ceasefire agreement toward Transylvito is still in effect.


    No, it ended when the contract was Signed. The TV-CC contract getting unSigned does not mean that the Original Ceasefire is thereby reinstated. Just as the schmuckers TV paid to CC are not automagically transferred back into TV's treasury, nor the 25 mil that was paid to GK. Nor will Bunny's body become unforaged. What is done, is done.

    I assume that CC and TV can now attack one another without either side invoking penalties.

    Most of that money never went to Charlescomm. Transfer to GK was a separate contract, signed by the chief caster, which remains valid. Bunny's body being foraged was not the sort of thing that could be done, much less undone, automagically. Modifications to previous contracts, though, definitely can be done automagically. Records of the previous ceasefire must have existed, if only to serve as a reference for the new 'reverse of.' Nullifying the contract which nullified-and-replaced it might simply modify that record once again, removing "archival, no longer valid" tag.

    As a further argument, Fate wants to wreck Charlie as severely as possible, for a whole stack of reasons. Arranging for him to be hoist by his own contractual petard seems like the kind of quick and subtle, yet far-reaching (and dramatically ironic) tweak that Fate traditionally specializes in.

    Giving TV the unique ability to strike at Charlescomm with minimal fear of retaliation would also thoroughly satisfy Ceasar's wish that his side become relevant as a player in the larger conflict.

  • Tipped by 1 person!
  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:34 pm 
    Offline
    Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:49 am
    Posts: 3
    So this book is all about taking those heavy-handed contracts and strings, the mechanics that Erfworld uses to enforce its rules (and the mechanics that are also being abused by Charlie and others to subvert them), and breaking them.

    The pliers are awake, no longer needing to be "attuned" to do what they do best. We know that strings can be unraveled, broken. Wanda is croaked. A contract has been un-signed.

    Now it's time to cheat. To fudge the dice, but even the rolls that Erfworld uses to determine if you even CAN fudge the dice. It's time to do things that don't even have a name because nobody has ever done them before.

  • Tipped by 2 people!
  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:38 pm 
    User avatar
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Battle Crest Pins Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Year of the Dwagon Supporter This user is a Tool! This user is a part of Erfworld canon! Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter Has collected at least one unit Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day Arkenhammer Supporter
    Offline
    Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:30 am
    Posts: 338
    Music I wrote 5(!!) years go now appropriate for Caesar's farewell:

    https://soundcloud.com/shane-wegner/transylvito

    Old music that is now Sky Appletini's battle anthem!

    https://shanewegner.bandcamp.com/track/aztez-battle

    I'uno. Maybe my Numbers Sync correctly with Erfworld or something.

  • Tipped by 4 people!
  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:47 pm 
    User avatar
    This user is a Tool! This user was a Tool before it was cool Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day
    Offline
    Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:54 pm
    Posts: 1934
    Website: http://www.tendonitisexpert.com
    I. Want. To. Know. What. That. Golden. Rifle/Ruler's Staff. Is. And/Or. Does.

    Badly.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:54 pm 
    User avatar
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Battle Crest Pins Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Year of the Dwagon Supporter This user is a Tool! This user is a part of Erfworld canon! Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter Has collected at least one unit Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day Arkenhammer Supporter
    Offline
    Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:30 am
    Posts: 338
    Umbrathor wrote:
    Transylvito not falling because Caesar's Number still holds the side together, because HueHue Ditto'd his 'heart' for the signature? That seems like mumbo jumbo to me. It does not fit with anything I know of Erfworld so far. Which makes it feel like Deus Ex Machina.


    Remember when Jetstone was held together until the end of turn by a holographic copy of King Slately? Which gave him time to promote Tramennis to Heir?

    Almost exactly the same core concept here, with the Tutelary Twist.
    If you didn't remember that, that doesn't make this Deus Ex Machina. It just makes it a looong callback.

  • Tipped by 2 people!
  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:03 pm 
    Offline
    Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:25 pm
    Posts: 191
    Thecommander236 wrote:
    What the hell?! You can just STEAL the power of designating an heir without paying for it? And he just ripped up a contract that was Signed. I... I...

    I got nothing. That changes everything.

    There was even some partial foreshadowing for the idea of a contract being invalidated on the grounds of the "ruler" who agreed to it being a ditto, actually, back when King Tramennis was renegotiating Lilith's transfer to Charlescomm custody.

  • Tipped by 1 person!
  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Epilogue 2
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:08 pm 
    User avatar
    Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day This user is a Tool!
    Offline
    Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:35 am
    Posts: 2607
    Location: Wales... New South Wales
    Kaed wrote:
    Anomynous 167 wrote:
    Quoted in reverse order of what I wrote.
    Sod off. I'm not complaining when I'm calling it Deus Ex Machinima. You harken back in your reference to Greek narrative traditions, but it is precisely those traditions that cause me to label the events that have transpired as Deus Ex Machinima.

    The Tutelaries are city gods. By virtue of that Jed can't turn an egg into an omlete, without being the embodyment of Deus-poliscivitas ex Machinima.

    Something doesn't stop becoming Deus ex Machinima just because there is a plausible explanation for everything. Jed could toss the egg into a frying pan, poor half a cup of milk into it, stir it all and then place it over an open fire and the existance of the omlet would still be a deus ex machina.

    ===

    edit; Having Greek gods show up to fix everything isn't inexplicable or sudden anyways, since an author doesn't have to establish historical figures. These gods were always there (except during the era of the titans, when they weren't born yet). You'd have to be a barbarian to think their sudden emergence to cause your suspension of disbelief to be strained.


    You've managed to sidestep the parts of the long argument I made that don't fit with your angry assertions, so I'll reiterate them. Even if, as you suppose, the tutularies are 'gods' (and I wish to reiterate that I think this is an oversimplification of their role in the story), why does it matter?

    Even if they exist to perform deux ex machina for the story like you claim, why does that make them bad characters? The bad guy has a tutelary. The 'good guys' have a tutelary. Even the mary sue warrior queen has one. So the fact that Huehue is here doing these things is just par for the course for the story.

    These are fundamental totems of Erfworld given life and voice. I think it's fascinating to see the implications they have on Erfworld, not frustrating.

    It would be like if you gave power lines a face and voice and will. They are still power lines, and they still exist for the function of distributing power to your city, but now they can choose to distribute power with direction, as they are no longer mindless. What if they decided they were now angry with you and would no longer power your home? The fact that something you took for granted and is vital to your daily existence can now be taken away by an angry entity is probably scary. But are these living power lines Gods for holding the mighty energies that flow from your city's power plant at their whims?

    Not really, no. Some people might try to worship them I expect, and maybe make them offerings, in the hope of ensuring their continued power. Maybe a stupid Powerologist religion might spring up. But that doesn't make them gods any more than a man with a weather control machine descending on primitives with spears is a rain god, regardless of how they are treated.

    And you, seem to have side-stepped the fact that I am not freaking complaining.

    My whole point of my tyrade was that just because something is a "deus ex machina" doesn't make it a bad thing, incase you couldn't tell my how loosely (or tightly) I was going by my definition of "Deus Ex Machina" (literal or otherwise), since you seem to be taking such comments strictly as criticism and not as statements of fact.

    TROPES ARE TOOLS, get it through your (arken) head.

    Huehue's actions may have RESOLVED a bunch of dangling threads in this resolution through his "deus ex machina" (namely that Jack and Maggie will no longer be stuck inside a neutral-hostile hex). He even promoted Skyy to heir, creating a new status quo with new problems.

    This is all bloody interesting, but you're still cought up on me labelling the situation as I literally saw it fit.

    -

    As for whether or not they are gods, Shirley sees her body as holy, a temple. And Jed the Head refers to awakened towers as "Tutelaries", which is a fancy word for "City-god", so I take it as proof enough that they are gods.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
    Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
     
    Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 427 posts ] 

    Board index » Erfworld Things » Reactions


    Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests

     
     

     
    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot post attachments in this forum

    Search for:
    Jump to: