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 Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 188
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:01 am 
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Okay Ben's spell for making a light got me

darkness visible wrote:
Anomynous 167 wrote:
Arci wrote:
On the other hand... the act of taking those gems would technically count as doing financial harm to GK, via an agent that had no idea what he was doing. Sort of a reverse of the "Lilith in Charlescom" situation. All GK has to do is KNOW that they were robbed and collect the bounty!

Even if stealing assets of another side were prohibitted, which is tenuous at best (given that Lilith was free to steal all the guns), all those Gems are assets of Transilvito. Transilvito is just in an agreement with GK that TV is responsible for paying ALL of Gobwin Knob's expenses (more or less, the only thing that GK could spend shmuckers on without costing Transilvito would be on city upgrades)
edit: https://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/324

Come to think of it, Gobwin Knob is free to strike up a forth contract to transfer all of TV's treasury into another side's treasury. This is really dependant on trust.


How strong is the magic intrinsic to a Contract?

"Should either Signatory Side break or egregiously violate any terms of the alliance between them, the Gems shall be automagically converted to Shmuckers and assigned to the treasury of the aggrieved side"

It doesn't *say* they have to still be in the possession of TV for that to happen. If Charlie hasn't converted them, would either TV or GK purposely violating the contract send the money straight into the treasury of the aggrieved side even though the gems are no longer TV assets?


I would say yes, and that Charlie almost certainly hasn't converted them because we know he likes keeping his treasury mostly in gems anyway. This feels like the circumstances being set up here, which is specifically a disadvantage to Charlie (since anyone else would just convert em to Schmuckers) - the stolen Gems are gonna automagically get stolen back via the contract the moment Ben can inform a GK unit.

And I feel like something about the way this could timed with the terms of Charlie's contract is going to be important, but I'm not sure how yet

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 188
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:51 am 
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    Looks like he's gotten his first Notch On that gun. Heyooooo~!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 188
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:00 am 
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    GaryThunder wrote:
    What, was Claude supposed to let Notch keep walking forward until Notch spotted Claude's gun barrel poking out of the port?


    Yes. Because Claude is in cover, so it'll be hard for Notch to hit Claude back, but also because Claude has a better chance of getting the first hit off as his thought process is "Notch spotted me -> Fire" as opposed to "What's that gun doing in that port?"

    The closer the target, the greater the accuracy, and moreover, enfilade is based on the notion that troops in a line are more vulnerable to inaccurate fire, as missed shots will hit comrades. Enfilading fire is relatively weak when the enfilading position is known; from the maximum of Claude's firing range, opponents can likewise take cover and attack from a prepared position.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 188
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:36 am 
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    darkness visible wrote:
    Anomynous 167 wrote:
    Arci wrote:
    On the other hand... the act of taking those gems would technically count as doing financial harm to GK, via an agent that had no idea what he was doing. Sort of a reverse of the "Lilith in Charlescom" situation. All GK has to do is KNOW that they were robbed and collect the bounty!

    Even if stealing assets of another side were prohibitted, which is tenuous at best (given that Lilith was free to steal all the guns), all those Gems are assets of Transilvito. Transilvito is just in an agreement with GK that TV is responsible for paying ALL of Gobwin Knob's expenses (more or less, the only thing that GK could spend shmuckers on without costing Transilvito would be on city upgrades)
    edit: https://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/324

    Come to think of it, Gobwin Knob is free to strike up a forth contract to transfer all of TV's treasury into another side's treasury. This is really dependant on trust.


    How strong is the magic intrinsic to a Contract?

    "Should either Signatory Side break or egregiously violate any terms of the alliance between them, the Gems shall be automagically converted to Shmuckers and assigned to the treasury of the aggrieved side"

    It doesn't *say* they have to still be in the possession of TV for that to happen. If Charlie hasn't converted them, would either TV or GK purposely violating the contract send the money straight into the treasury of the aggrieved side even though the gems are no longer TV assets?

    Quit thinking about the Gems. The gems are gone at this point.

    And Gobwin Knob won't violate the terms of the contract. All Parson has to do to win out in the end is invoke clause 4.

    If Gobwin Knob were to sign a contract with say, Hagar (or the Jugglos), where Gobwin Knob is to give the Kingdom of Hagar 20 million shmuckers, the treasury of Transilvito would be moved in its entirety to Hagar.

    Transilvito will be left completely bankrupt and unable to fullfill Charlie's demands. And Charlie'll be cheated out of 20 million.

    Caesar will regret ever making a deal with Gobwin Knob.

    King Dicky'll be very happy.

    And Parson'll seriously damage his credibility when it comes to making deals.....


    ...

    Though if the Gems are indeed able to be Yoyo'd (as others suggest), as Chief Warlord of Transilvito Vinny could break the Alliance with Gobwin Knob, and unwittingly send all those Gems into Gobwin Knob's hands.

    This would leave Transilvito in a really bad position. (But Gobwin Knob would get their money back).

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 188
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:02 am 
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    zbeeblebrox wrote:
    darkness visible wrote:
    "Should either Signatory Side break or egregiously violate any terms of the alliance between them, the Gems shall be automagically converted to Shmuckers and assigned to the treasury of the aggrieved side"

    It doesn't *say* they have to still be in the possession of TV for that to happen. If Charlie hasn't converted them, would either TV or GK purposely violating the contract send the money straight into the treasury of the aggrieved side even though the gems are no longer TV assets?

    I would say yes, and that Charlie almost certainly hasn't converted them because we know he likes keeping his treasury mostly in gems anyway. This feels like the circumstances being set up here, which is specifically a disadvantage to Charlie (since anyone else would just convert em to Schmuckers) - the stolen Gems are gonna automagically get stolen back via the contract the moment Ben can inform a GK unit.

    And I feel like something about the way this could timed with the terms of Charlie's contract is going to be important, but I'm not sure how yet


    It feels unlikely that the gems, once stolen, could still be affected by the contract. But Narrative determines Signamancy and may therefore work that way.

    If so, Ben is likely to realize that. he may even be able to turn that situation to their advantage in some way, such as turning TV's remaining treasury into Trust fund gems, having those paid to CC in remuneration for the schmuchers they received, and for any penalties incurred under the new reversed Ceasefire Agreement, and then taking some action that cancels the Alliance with GK, thus turning all those gems into GK treasury.

    But yeah, I consider that a very unlikely scenario. The gems still being convertible sounds like a major deus ex machina.

    A plot fart.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 188
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:35 am 
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    Note: Claude has a KDR because he died once and killed once. Anyone who hasn't ever died can have a kill count, but not a kill-death ratio (unless you like dividing by zero).

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 188
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:43 am 
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    Inst wrote:
    GaryThunder wrote:
    What, was Claude supposed to let Notch keep walking forward until Notch spotted Claude's gun barrel poking out of the port?


    Yes. Because Claude is in cover, so it'll be hard for Notch to hit Claude back, but also because Claude has a better chance of getting the first hit off as his thought process is "Notch spotted me -> Fire" as opposed to "What's that gun doing in that port?"

    The closer the target, the greater the accuracy, and moreover, enfilade is based on the notion that troops in a line are more vulnerable to inaccurate fire, as missed shots will hit comrades. Enfilading fire is relatively weak when the enfilading position is known; from the maximum of Claude's firing range, opponents can likewise take cover and attack from a prepared position.


    "What's that gun doing in that port"?? Even the Dirtamancers aren't that rock stupid. They know they're chasing Ivan and Claude and they've almost certainly spotted the gun in Claude's hands before the two retreated. And for all we and the comic are talking about enfilade, it's really used more against mass attacks by large groups of soldiers, its specific principles aren't as important when your enemy barely outnumbers you.

    What's more, the Dirties are all low on juice because of the bedrock scrolls they linked with Charlie to cast, so they don't really have any alternative to charging forward. They can't burrow around Ivan and Claude's position, not without Ivan realizing it with his Dirtamancer senses.

    Right now the Dirtamancers have two choices: advance or retreat. They're too proud and stubborn to retreat, and you know that if Joe or someone says "Hey Buck, maybe we shouldn't walk directly into gunfire", Buck will double down, like he's been doing, and INSIST that they walk directly into gunfire.

    And hey, if that causes squabbling and dissension among the Dirtamancers, so much the better.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 188
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:37 pm 
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    I hate to be picky and point this out, but in the final panel the artwork is missing the area where the magazine is inserted into the lower receiver (just in front of the trigger).

    I know there is discussion of the Dirties being low on power, but they may have enough to use the wrench for a surprise yet...

    Edited: typos


    Last edited by Senamar on Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 188
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:49 pm 
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    Also... In https://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/245 all of the Dirties' guns showed their front sights, but in this update we only see a front sight on Pinkie Shears' gun. Those details were left off the other guns. I realize things in RL aren't running normally, and maybe this is something worth coming back to at print time.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 188
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:28 pm 
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    GaryThunder wrote:
    Inst wrote:
    GaryThunder wrote:
    What, was Claude supposed to let Notch keep walking forward until Notch spotted Claude's gun barrel poking out of the port?


    Yes. Because Claude is in cover, so it'll be hard for Notch to hit Claude back, but also because Claude has a better chance of getting the first hit off as his thought process is "Notch spotted me -> Fire" as opposed to "What's that gun doing in that port?"

    The closer the target, the greater the accuracy, and moreover, enfilade is based on the notion that troops in a line are more vulnerable to inaccurate fire, as missed shots will hit comrades. Enfilading fire is relatively weak when the enfilading position is known; from the maximum of Claude's firing range, opponents can likewise take cover and attack from a prepared position.


    "What's that gun doing in that port"?? Even the Dirtamancers aren't that rock stupid. They know they're chasing Ivan and Claude and they've almost certainly spotted the gun in Claude's hands before the two retreated. And for all we and the comic are talking about enfilade, it's really used more against mass attacks by large groups of soldiers, its specific principles aren't as important when your enemy barely outnumbers you.

    I'm not the one who made the comment, but I suspect the point is this: Claud knows exactly what he's looking for, and where his target will be. Meanwhile, any of his opponents will not know what sort of defenses they're looking for, or where they might be. That's a huge tactical advantage for the sniper, and it exists above and beyond the structure of the defenses themselves.

    After all, it's dark. None of them have been here before. Ivan's been working down here forever, and literally any structure could justifiably be something in disuse, a distraction, or a "natural" obstacle. It's not, but it could be. That takes valuable time to determine, and Notch-o failed.


    Last edited by twhitt on Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 188
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:41 pm 
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    ShaneTheBrain wrote:
    The simplest solution would be if someone could just get the Neck-Knife thing off of Caesar. Charlescomm's immediate bargaining power goes from A Lot to Not.

    Medium-Term bargaining power still remains Immense, in the form of "Could probably have 64+ veiled archons with Leadership and assault rifles in your airspace in 2-3 turns with max Move. So not great. But not "can end your side anytime" bad.

    There are two casters and a fancy doll thing next to the neck trap. Between them they outta be able to pull something off. Plus the Neck-trap's creator is there too in an unknown mind state. Given that the Fool, Thinker, and Mind-Doll are ALL geared towards manipulating people into doing things, and at least 2 have a special insight into the Dollamancer, they REALLY outta be able to get that neck trap off.

    Let alone if they get some extra Juice.


    If this "deal" doesn't go through, then there would still be the unilateral treaty in TV's favor. They would have to hole up any valuable units but they could then just swarm the archons with bats until they either have 64+ archon prisoners or Charlie loses A LOT of money

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 188
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:45 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    I wonder what the ammo situation of the Dirties is.


    Ammo is the one thing a Dirtamancer alone can make. They are all (presumably) masterclass with about a half amount of juice each. If they run out they can make more and that's not taking into acount any they already made.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 188
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:29 pm 
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    The main problem is not ammunition, its the fact that the enemy sits in prepared bunkers. They will have to get close to tear it down with Dirtamancy (at least I cannot remember long range dirtamancy outside of linkups) which won't be possible without getting riddled by bullets.
    You do not charge bunkers manned with machine guns with infantry, it does not work. And against five people automatic guns are an adequate substitute.

    Since they lack artillery or an airstrike (both would be kinda hard to employ underground anyway) flamethrowers might be their next best bet. Which they also do not have.

    Creating a bunch of cheap ass golems to fill out their stacks and soak up enemy bullets might be their smartest move. Material for that should be available. Alternatively they could create on iron golem tough enough to tank the damage. That might work if there is a type of golem which is uncrittable.

    But then there is the biggest problem: They do not know that charging bunkers does not work. If they are smart enough to figure that out for themselves before they croak trying to do it remains to be seen.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 188
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:45 pm 
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    O4rfish wrote:
    Note: Claude has a KDR because he died once and killed once. Anyone who hasn't ever died can have a kill count, but not a kill-death ratio (unless you like dividing by zero).


    Most video games report one kill for no deaths as 1.0 KDR. Otherwise there wouldn't be a difference between 1:0 and 50:0.

    Maybe the guns track KDR stats? Or can, if you understand them.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 188
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:49 pm 
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    If Wanda uncroaked Notch-O, and he starts shooting at his former friends, Will his battle cry be "Notch-O dead now! "?

    Wanda hasn't been shown using juice, but she suggested it using the dead Archons to carry weapons and help attack. So I think this could come into play. She's a very capable combat Croakamancer.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 188
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:52 pm 
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    Metallicat wrote:
    If Wanda uncroaked Notch-O, and he starts shooting at his former friends, Will his battle cry be "Notch-O dead now! "?

    I'm not sure if regular Uncroaked can actually talk.

    But... if he's Decrypted, I'd imagine he might say something like "I'm Notch-o ditch any more, diggers!"

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 188
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:21 pm 
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    greycat wrote:
    Metallicat wrote:
    If Wanda uncroaked Notch-O, and he starts shooting at his former friends, Will his battle cry be "Notch-O dead now! "?

    I'm not sure if regular Uncroaked can actually talk.

    But... if he's Decrypted, I'd imagine he might say something like "I'm Notch-o ditch any more, diggers!"


    Uncroaked can talk, Wanda tried to make Tommy sing, though she was not there yet. By now she can, see the singing uncroaked while she led them in a dance fight (thats bonus material for people who bought the hardcover/pdf). Also, one of the uncroaked warlords said "Pie" while Stanley showed them to Parson. Though that was caused by the rule of funny.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 188
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:38 pm 
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    Metallicat wrote:
    O4rfish wrote:
    Note: Claude has a KDR because he died once and killed once. Anyone who hasn't ever died can have a kill count, but not a kill-death ratio (unless you like dividing by zero).


    Most video games report one kill for no deaths as 1.0 KDR. Otherwise there wouldn't be a difference between 1:0 and 50:0.

    Maybe the guns track KDR stats? Or can, if you understand them.

    The key here is word "ratio" which means you are dividing kills by deaths rather than listing them "Kills verses Deaths" as well the use of a period rather than a colon as a divider, it is not "1:0" but "1.00", you will never see "50:0", but if you see 50.00 that means you kill 50x as many as you lose whether you kill 50 and lost one life or killed 250 and lost 5 lives. The double digits after the decimal says you will always round to the nearest one hundredth.

    So you have a sort of "score" that can very quickly be used to compare yourself to others without having to do math to figure out if 13 kills and 5 losses is better than 111 kills and 43 losses

    Edit: Ok, I think I understand what you are saying... normally there would be a ratio, but in the divide by zero instance it is presented as a raw Kills verses death format so you can compare your perfect score to others, a guy with 100 kills and no losses is better than a guy with 3 kills and no losses.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 188
     Post Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:52 am 
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    conmor wrote:
    ShaneTheBrain wrote:
    The simplest solution would be if someone could just get the Neck-Knife thing off of Caesar. Charlescomm's immediate bargaining power goes from A Lot to Not.

    Medium-Term bargaining power still remains Immense, in the form of "Could probably have 64+ veiled archons with Leadership and assault rifles in your airspace in 2-3 turns with max Move. So not great. But not "can end your side anytime" bad.

    There are two casters and a fancy doll thing next to the neck trap. Between them they outta be able to pull something off. Plus the Neck-trap's creator is there too in an unknown mind state. Given that the Fool, Thinker, and Mind-Doll are ALL geared towards manipulating people into doing things, and at least 2 have a special insight into the Dollamancer, they REALLY outta be able to get that neck trap off.

    Let alone if they get some extra Juice.


    If this "deal" doesn't go through, then there would still be the unilateral treaty in TV's favor. They would have to hole up any valuable units but they could then just swarm the archons with bats until they either have 64+ archon prisoners or Charlie loses A LOT of money

    Come to think of it, now would be the perfect time for Maggie to repatriate Caesar. Why hasn't she done it yet?

    Right, Caesar the whispering dog would get his choke collar back on.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 188
     Post Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:21 am 
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    Metallicat wrote:
    If Wanda uncroaked Notch-O, and he starts shooting at his former friends, Will his battle cry be "Notch-O dead now! "?

    Wanda hasn't been shown using juice, but she suggested it using the dead Archons to carry weapons and help attack. So I think this could come into play. She's a very capable combat Croakamancer.


    I like that idea, but it brings up a nagging question, re: repatriated casters and juice availability. Claud repatriated Ivan and Ivan got enough juice to dig through bedrock with the Wonky Wrench and escape to the bunker. We’re told in update 221 that, while imprisoned, Wanda doesn’t have any juice to pinkie swear to Janis about decrypting Marie and returning the Pliers. But after she’s repatriated she claims to be able to uncroak Archons and use them to rescue the condemned prisoners, so I guess we have the accept that repatriation restored her juice.

    So why are Jack and Maggie still running on empty after their repatriations?

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