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 Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:58 pm 
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Ganurath wrote:
What's so special about guns that only they can auto-Special? One can have the gun, and Claud can make Automatic Repeating Crossbows for the other two.

He could, but none of them could use the crowssbows, since none of them has the Archery specialist [crossbow] special. Like Ace Hardware does.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:52 pm 
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    Maybe create a doll with said special? I wonder, whether a dollamancer can assign skills and perks to his creations. Or maybe he might have taken the skill already upon levelling or might have and arifact, that will give you that skill when worn. Many ways to cheat the system :)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:11 pm 
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    Arrkhal wrote:
    guynietoren wrote:
    Building a tripod would be a good option after building a fortification point at the end of a corridor. They'd have to wait till all or most of them are inside the corridor before firing or they'll likely try to dig around the fortification. Problem still might be juice though. Ivan has to work on a decent structure as well as making a ton of ammo. I know we don't have much for numbers, but it didn't seem like Sizemore could create that much ammo per turn.
    Auto Specialization might not be a problem if it can carry over from another weapon. Assuming the gun type doesn't matter.


    Page 136 says that tripods can't be used by ordinary troops, which seems to suggest they don't autospecial. https://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/136

    Claud might still be able to use one, though.
    Good catch. Not sure why they've got a pair set up outside the dirtamansion in bunkers, then.

    Ah, who am I kidding. They set them up like that because of the terrifying signamancy :)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:00 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    kaylasdad99 wrote:


    I haven’t seen anyone satisfactorily explain why Claud cannot make a couple more guns right now.


    He doesn't have the wrench, and therefore doesn't have access to the Carnymancy necessary to auto special a gun.


    More then that, dollamancers can't create things out of thin air. They need materials for that. Ace had always used Cubins to do small item conjuration to create the materials.

    Or perhaps a caster can always order materials popped and materialized by using the sides treasury.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:12 pm 
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    Bond_em7 wrote:
    I'm pretty sure (if I remember right) that to make guns GK had to have their Dirtamancer link up with their Dollamancer...and even those weren't auto-specialized. So without a thinkamancer to link the two they can't just make more.

    I don't think so. Maggie wasn't around to link Ace and Sizemore (and there's no chance they convinced the Great Minds to help), but the guys were still able to make guns anyway. I think gun-/bullet-making is doable while unlinked... it just doesn't get specialized unless the Dollamancer has some Carnymancy available.

    I never considered having Claud use the Wrench. I figured he just linked with Charlie way back when. If Claud does get near someone wielding the Wrench ("pff, he can try"), then it'd be interesting to watch... but I'm not holding my breath. I think he'll just have to do without that.

    Bond_em7 wrote:
    I vaguely remember the Dirtamancers that are chasing them had to use most of their juice to make scrolls to get through the bedrock at all to be down there. Some may have a little juice but considering that Claud and Ivan are both full from stealing it from the srouce (using the gate) whatever structures they can throw up (and I think both Dollamancers and Dirtamancers can create structures though I may be wrong and it might just be Dirtamancers) should be able to withstand the dirtamancers just because they have more juice to keep throwing them up or repairing them. They just need something that can protect them somehow from bullets.

    Sir Dr D wrote:
    More then [lack of a Wrench for making more guns], dollamancers can't create things out of thin air. They need materials for that. Ace had always used Cubins to do small item conjuration to create the materials.

    Or perhaps a caster can always order materials popped and materialized by using the sides treasury.

    Indeed, the rockers had to use about half of their juice apiece to make their bedrock scrolls.

    But now that y'all mention the raw-materials issue... I'm not sure it's ever been narrated that a Dollamancer needs someone else to conjure raw materials for said Dollamancer to shape, but such a need has been the case so far. In Ace/Cubbins' case, I chalked it up to Ace's low level, but there was also a need for Ivan to conjure a bucket of pitch for Claud (who I assume has a good level, because Charlie likes the best of the best.)

    Hmm. It seems being a Stuffamancer is even more valuable than I thought.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:38 pm 
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    Brother Mirtillo wrote:
    But now that y'all mention the raw-materials issue... I'm not sure it's ever been narrated that a Dollamancer needs someone else to conjure raw materials for said Dollamancer to shape, but such a need has been the case so far. In Ace/Cubbins' case, I chalked it up to Ace's low level, but there was also a need for Ivan to conjure a bucket of pitch for Claud (who I assume has a good level, because Charlie likes the best of the best.)

    Hmm. It seems being a Stuffamancer is even more valuable than I thought.

    Spookism (Which Dollmancy is) doesn't fall on the Matter axis. Just Motion.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:21 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    Brother Mirtillo wrote:
    But now that y'all mention the raw-materials issue... I'm not sure it's ever been narrated that a Dollamancer needs someone else to conjure raw materials for said Dollamancer to shape, but such a need has been the case so far. In Ace/Cubbins' case, I chalked it up to Ace's low level, but there was also a need for Ivan to conjure a bucket of pitch for Claud (who I assume has a good level, because Charlie likes the best of the best.)

    Hmm. It seems being a Stuffamancer is even more valuable than I thought.

    Spookism (Which Dollmancy is) doesn't fall on the Matter axis. Just Motion.

    [raises eyebrow] [reviews the magic grid] Well, how about that. Yeah, that'll do it.

    Just to see if there was anything else breakable, I reviewed the rest of the grid in case there were other disciplines that don't have Matter but seem like they should. Nope -- Dollamancy is the only one that comes close. I'd give a distant second place to Moneymancers making gems, but nobody's ever used a gem to accomplish anything physical, so that's not a problem. I guess that ruins my upcoming fanfiction* of a flying-special Moneymancer using gems to slice through windows and infiltrate buildings.

    I guess some definitions are more strict than others when one identifies the disciplines that Matter.

    *haha, no.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:18 pm 
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    Unfounded speculation!

    1)Warlord Judy Gale was from Parson's world. Not only that, but she was L. Frank Baum's original inspiration for the Wonderful Wizard of Oz. Say, perhaps she told him her tale. This would mean that all took place before L. Frank Baum wrote the original story in 1900.

    2)Judy Gale's stories about her own world are what inspired Charlie to start probing other dimensions with the arkendish. At some point between 1908-1945, he managed to pull enough information (in particular a german instruction manual) to attempt to copy the MG-08 machine gun (I pick those years because that's when the MG-08 was in service with the germans). This is also why not just anybody can properly use the "tripods", because these were his first attempt.

    3) He continued to watch stupidworld, pulling additional ideas to expand his arsenal, develop shocked connections, and probably tips about how to do business and present himself. Possibly, he even noticed the strange ties between Erfworld Signamancy and Stupidworld.

    4) Really, the only substantive thing I've got is that Charlie has probably been observing stupidworld for over a century.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:41 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    kaylasdad99 wrote:


    I haven’t seen anyone satisfactorily explain why Claud cannot make a couple more guns right now.


    He doesn't have the wrench, and therefore doesn't have access to the Carnymancy necessary to auto special a gun.

    And where are we given a reason to suppose that the Wonky Wrench (or indeed any form of Carnymancy) is needed to be able to continue applying the auto special to his guns?

    Edit: Someone mentioned Weirdomancy as the property that enables the auto-specialing feature, but when Bonnie told Ace about Claud’s role in the guns’ creation (https://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/189), it wouldn’t make sense for her to withhold the fact that Claud required the assistance of another caster to finish the task (even, or especially if the other caster was Charlie). ISTM that it also wouldn’t make sense for her not to know that fact.

    A completely irresponsible speculation might be that, while Weirdomancy is necessary for that part, Claud happens to be a cross-disciplined Dollamancer, with a minor in Weirdomancy. His Signamancy certainly supports the hypothesis. :mrgreen:

    (otoh, it also wouldn’t make sense for Bonnie to withhold that fact, either)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:16 am 
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    kaylasdad99 wrote:
    Whispri wrote:
    As much as guns don't seem like her, they should probably give the rifle to Wanda: Her flunkies should still have juice for offensive spell casting.

    Claud and Ivan are full up on juice. Can they fabricate some more rifles and ammo on the spot?

    Well if they're going to build anything other than a barricade, I'd suggest creating four weak units, so they can form an eight stack(with the little wood golem).

    SirHamster wrote:
    Whispri wrote:
    As much as guns don't seem like her, they should probably give the rifle to Wanda: Her flunkies should still have juice for offensive spell casting.


    Wanda firing bullets at enemy casters would also means she is exposed to bullets from same enemy casters. And they are outnumbered in firepower. She is too critical to risk the instant croak, putting aside gambling on the intervention of Fate.

    Screening her as they are is the correct tactic.

    They could screen her while she was shootin', but I meant when they were sheltered behind whatever defensive structure they're going to build. At that point, she could be firing the rifle, while they were casting spells.

    obuw wrote:
    Third, aren't these guys all dirtamancers? Couldn't they just, you know, cause a cave-in and bury ivan/cloud/wanda in their own bunker?

    The trouble with causing a cave in is that the caves are made of bedrock, they can't magic it without carnymancy. They could try building a wall over them or something, juice allowing, but the Knobians have a counter for that in the form of their own dirtamancer.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:48 am 
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    Whispri wrote:
    kaylasdad99 wrote:
    Whispri wrote:
    As much as guns don't seem like her, they should probably give the rifle to Wanda: Her flunkies should still have juice for offensive spell casting.

    Claud and Ivan are full up on juice. Can they fabricate some more rifles and ammo on the spot?

    Well if they're going to build anything other than a barricade, I'd suggest creating four weak units, so they can form an eight stack(with the little wood golem).

    Maybe more tar golems, as an incapacitating counterattack option just in case the pursuers close to melee range.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:05 am 
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    kaylasdad99 wrote:
    Edit: Someone mentioned Weirdomancy [...]

    A completely irresponsible speculation might be that, while Weirdomancy is necessary for that part, Claud happens to be a cross-disciplined Dollamancer, with a minor in Weirdomancy. His Signamancy certainly supports the hypothesis. :mrgreen:

    (otoh, it also wouldn’t make sense for Bonnie to withhold that fact, either)

    Yeah, none of these theories are new, but it doesn't hurt to review the speculation periodically.

    It could also be as simple as needing to be a Master Dollamancer, which Ace isn't yet.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:23 am 
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    strange7person wrote:
    Whispri wrote:
    kaylasdad99 wrote:
    Claud and Ivan are full up on juice. Can they fabricate some more rifles and ammo on the spot?

    Well if they're going to build anything other than a barricade, I'd suggest creating four weak units, so they can form an eight stack (with the little wood golem).

    Maybe more tar golems, as an incapacitating counterattack option just in case the pursuers close to melee range.

    I love the stack idea. Very warlordy thinking. But eh.. tar golems against dirtamancers? I would think they could easily disenchant enemy golems.

    Sir Dr D wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    kaylasdad99 wrote:
    I haven’t seen anyone satisfactorily explain why Claud cannot make a couple more guns right now.

    He doesn't have the wrench, and therefore doesn't have access to the Carnymancy necessary to auto special a gun.

    More th[a]n that, dollamancers can't create things out of thin air. They need materials for that.

    The Matruschka doll that Claud used to free Wanda was a wood golem. So either he had wood on him, or he was able to create the golem without needing materials, or … oh right, he had Ivan. Ivan probably created the wood (a Dirtamancer probably can, since Sizemore built stairs and created support beams in the tunnel under Portal Park, and Ivan created a spike trap with wooden spikes).

    So, creating materials is probably not the problem. It has already been pointed out
    that Claud probably manages to make guns without needing the wrench or being linked with Charlie. We're not sure what it takes.

    Though he may have needed a Knutty Needle.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:25 am 
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    Umbrathor wrote:
    strange7person wrote:
    Maybe more tar golems, as an incapacitating counterattack option just in case the pursuers close to melee range.

    I love the stack idea. Very warlordy thinking. But eh.. tar golems against dirtamancers? I would think they could easily disenchant enemy golems.

    Deanimating enemy golems, if it's possible at all, certainly costs juice and attention (during which time the attacking dirtamancers will be under fire), and might be resistable with the combination of stack bonus and leadership bonuses from both a dirtamancer and a dollamancer. Best of all, it might be a touch-range spell, and we've already seen that a tar golem's effectiveness as a glue trap is not at all contingent on it's continued animation.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:14 am 
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    guynietoren wrote:
    -Thirdly the "'memeber?" line cements the notation that Ivan is trying to implement CC strategies he was privy to, as he was a vital person in building CC tower the way it is.


    So the last panel is a remembered discussion of "tactical residential architecture" during the building of Charlescomm tower.

    A web search for "tactical residential architecture" turns up some interesting stuff.

    ++PLS

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:04 pm 
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    Hello all :D

    I have a question about the diagram in the middle. In what situation would CC need a vertical enfilade? Like are the Archons shooting from the ceiling? Shooting horizontally through a narrow hallway makes sense, but how is shooting from the ceiling through a narrow slit beneficial? Unless I'm misinterpreting the manual.

    Also, it's kind of nice seeing the corporate signamancy of CC again: the artwork and plant, the drinks and snacks, is just very reminiscent of an office meeting room. Minus the vaulted door of course :P Makes me wonder if I've been unknowingly working for Charlie this whole time :P

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:48 pm 
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    Jade wrote:
    Hello all :D

    I have a question about the diagram in the middle. In what situation would CC need a vertical enfilade? Like are the Archons shooting from the ceiling? Shooting horizontally through a narrow hallway makes sense, but how is shooting from the ceiling through a narrow slit beneficial? Unless I'm misinterpreting the manual.

    Archons and other units can fly. Eliminating stairs in favor of vertical hallways makes CC more defensible against invaders. But if you have a hallway, you need a way to defend the hallways, even if the hallway goes up and down.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:30 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    Jade wrote:
    Hello all :D

    I have a question about the diagram in the middle. In what situation would CC need a vertical enfilade? Like are the Archons shooting from the ceiling? Shooting horizontally through a narrow hallway makes sense, but how is shooting from the ceiling through a narrow slit beneficial? Unless I'm misinterpreting the manual.

    Archons and other units can fly. Eliminating stairs in favor of vertical hallways makes CC more defensible against invaders. But if you have a hallway, you need a way to defend the hallways, even if the hallway goes up and down.


    Ok, thank you! I was thinking it was a vertical shooting spot for a horizontal hallway, and I didn't see the point (at least, not with a narrow slit for shooting from). But a vertical hall makes sense for flyers. I guess I didn't understand the physical location of where the vertical enfilade was taking place.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:23 pm 
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    I just realized something. Erfworlders speak Language, which just so happens to be nearly identical to English.

    How did Charlie learn German?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:16 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    I just realized something. Erfworlders speak Language, which just so happens to be nearly identical to English.

    How did Charlie learn German?

    Don't think he did. The English text super-imposed on the manual was Charlie speaking. If he intentionally used that manuscript (and it wasn't one of his many faces), then he was showing it off for the diagram.

    While it may be true that "Enfilade" and "Defilade" don't ever appear in that german manuscript, Charlie probably learnt those words from elsewhere... like an English war-manual. Charlie doesn't ask them to understand any of the words on the manuscript (since probably not even he understands it), he is merely asking them to look at the pictures.

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