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 Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:23 pm 
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This was a really clever way to cover the tactical situation without needing pages and pages to explain it to us :D Also, it's nice to see Ivan keeping his head and being so cunning in this situation.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:29 pm 
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    kaylasdad99 wrote:
    Anomynous 167 wrote:
    kaylasdad99 wrote:
    Claud and Ivan are full up on juice. Can they fabricate some more rifles and ammo on the spot?
    Skull the Troll wrote:

    I'm guessing they would have to be linked to do it. Maybe DeIsaac can help.

    Bzro wrote:
    Uh, asking Deisaac for help isn't really an option anymore...

    Yeah, especially since he left the Wonky Wrench in Spacerock

    Let's not place too much importance on the necessity of the Wonky Wrench in this process.
    Spoiler: show
    Bonnie told Ace that Claud was the one responsible for the creation of the rifles with the Auto-specialing feature. As far as we know, the first time Claud ever laid hands on the Wonky Wrench was when Ivan was instructing him in how to use it for repatriation. And while there may have been a Dish-enabled link to teach Claud how to fabricate a rifle with the Auto-special, he made so danged many of them that to suppose Charlie was involved for ALL of them is just implausible.

    As far as the ammo is concerned, that looks to be plain old Dirtamancy. Note that Sizemore is able to make rounds using nothing more than an original magazine of rounds as a template
    .

    I figured the problem everyone was getting at was about a lack of juice. The concept (or question) of (whether they can) making more guns hadn't occurred to me.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:34 pm 
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    Whispri wrote:
    As much as guns don't seem like her, they should probably give the rifle to Wanda: Her flunkies should still have juice for offensive spell casting.


    Wanda firing bullets at enemy casters would also means she is exposed to bullets from same enemy casters. And they are outnumbered in firepower. She is too critical to risk the instant croak, putting aside gambling on the intervention of Fate.

    Screening her as they are is the correct tactic.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:13 pm 
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    (continued from number 6, "Crossfire")
    "If this is the case, it must be possible to call the company leader before the start of shooting so that he can promptly give orders for which platoon to is to exchange fire in with the platoon in question. If this becomes known to the company leader too late, a change of targets is extremely annoying and not as good as it was before the start of shooting. The rifle or platoon commander giving the order "Crossfire!" must execute it immediately. This is one of the few commands necessary for fire control, which must be carried out immediately.

    The execution takes place according to pictures 27 and 28, always showing that the burst of fire of a platoon remain side by side and do not cross over again.

    Crossfire can also be used for effective shooting to achieve more impact on specific targets. So it works already on columns is reasonably noticeable, if something separates the individual columns from the side. Even against artillery targets, crossfire is beneficial to sit behind the shooting.

    7. Shooting Against Lying Columns

    Lying columns can be kept very effectively under fire, because the machine gun can incur, and because the columns can be [bombarded so long.]"

    Original:

    Ist dies der fall so muss es dem Kompagnieführer möglicht noch vor Beginn des Schiessens zugerufen werden damit er noch rechtzeitig befiehlt, welcher Zug mit dem betreffenden Zug sein Ziel tauschen soll. Wird es dem Kompagnieführer zu spat bekannt, so ist ein Zielwechsel äussert störend und nicht so gut auszuführen wie vor Beginn des Schiessens. Der Gewehr- oder Zugführer, der den Befehl "Kreuzfeuer!" erhält, muss ihn sofort ausführen. Es ist dies einer von den wenigen zur Feuerleitung nötigen Befehlen, der sofort ausgeführt werden muss.

    Die Ausführung geschieht nach Bild 27 und 28, und zwar immer darart, das die Garben eines Zuges nebeneinander bleiben und nicht in sich nochmals über Kreuz gehen.

    Dies Kreuzfeuer kann auch zum Wirkungsschiessen angewendet werden, um auf bestimmte Ziele mehr Wirkung zu erreichen. So macht es sich bereits auf Kolonnen günftig bemerkbar, wenn man die einzelnen Kolonnen etwas von der Seite fasst. Auch gegen der Artillerieziele ist dies Kreuzfeuer vorteilhaft, um etwas hinter die Schiesse zu sassen.

    7. Das Schiessen gegen liegenden Kolonnen

    Liegenden Kolonnen können sehr wirksam unter Feuer gehalten werden, weil sich die MG einschiessen können, und weil die Kolonnen so lange beschossen werden können.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:19 pm 
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    As you can see, cross-firing creates a field of overlapping bursts making it almost impossible to pass there or even raise your head as bullets zip over it. The importance is, that the commander of the MG unit - this could be a captain or more likely: a lieutenant could instruct the platoons correctly so that all targets are under fire. By swapping 2 platoons's targets, this creates a region, where bullets come from 2 sides which makes it very hard to find cover against. 'Wirkungsfeuer' means 'fire for effect', so you want to go for the kill and not supress the enemy. The primer also stats the advantage to catch a line of infantry from sideways. I imagine you spray the enemy from left to right and vice versa and because the line is attacked from the side it is more likely to hit someone. Positioning the MGs correctly is quite an art. You might get your hands on Rommel: Infantry Attacks! where the later German Fieldmarshal in WWII talks about his life as infantry officer in various campaigns during WWI. He also talks about MG positioning and even supplements with self-drawn pictures to explain. A fascinating book - or better: war diary - of a brilliant officer since he always took his time at the end of the day to reflect upon his orders and their execution and makes deductions. You must be very disciplined to do so but it pays off in terms of getting better at what you are doing I guess.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:58 pm 
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    How are they going to crossfire with only one gun? Hobokens?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:00 pm 
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    Doc Desastro wrote:
    The primer also stats the advantage to catch a line of infantry from sideways. I imagine you spray the enemy from left to right and vice versa and because the line is attacked from the side it is more likely to hit someone.
    Almost right. The advantage of firing along a line of enemies (i.e., your shot travels parallel rather than perpendicular to the line) is that you don't have to think as hard about how high or low you are aiming. In a perfect situation, one machinegun could suppress an entire line of infantry by sweeping vertically. In addition, enemies further along the line cannot fire effectively at you, because friendlies may block their line of sight, or they may have friendly fire!

    Also, it is easy to aim correctly left-to-right, because it doesn't vary with range—just line up your weapon with the target.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:46 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    How are they going to crossfire with only one gun? Hobokens?

    What's so special about guns that only they can auto-Special? One can have the gun, and Claud can make Automatic Repeating Crossbows for the other two.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:59 pm 
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    shangalar wrote:
    And last complement for today:
    Zug in military terms is a squad.


    "Zug Zug" is an Orcish military term often used interchangeably with "Stop clicking me!"

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:28 am 
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    While defending from an entrenched position is a good idea, I don't think the diagram makes much sense.

    First, they only have one gun, so they can't really have interlocking firing lines.

    Second, the enemy is all coming from a single point, through a tunnel, so they don't need interlocking firing lines.

    So in essence, what they need is more like a bunker.

    Third, aren't these guys all dirtamancers? Couldn't they just, you know, cause a cave-in and bury ivan/cloud/wanda in their own bunker?

    (And why are they shooting at the dirt wall with guns, when they could get rid of it using dirtamancy? Preserving juice I guess?)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:32 am 
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    obuw wrote:
    Spoiler: show
    While defending from an entrenched position is a good idea, I don't think the diagram makes much sense.


    First, they only have one gun, so they can't really have interlocking firing lines.


    I haven’t seen anyone satisfactorily explain why Claud cannot make a couple more guns right now.

    Quote:
    Spoiler: show
    Second, the enemy is all coming from a single point, through a tunnel, so they don't need interlocking firing lines.

    So in essence, what they need is more like a bunker.


    Third, aren't these guys all dirtamancers? Couldn't they just, you know, cause a cave-in and bury ivan/cloud/wanda in their own bunker?
    Unless I’m mistaken, the roof/ceiling above them is made of bedrock.

    Quote:
    (And why are they shooting at the dirt wall with guns, when they could get rid of it using dirtamancy? Preserving juice I guess?)


    Probably a combination of them not having much juice left after making their scrolls, and panicky brain-farts. They’ve got the guns, might as well use them.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:34 am 
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    kaylasdad99 wrote:


    I haven’t seen anyone satisfactorily explain why Claud cannot make a couple more guns right now.


    He doesn't have the wrench, and therefore doesn't have access to the Carnymancy necessary to auto special a gun.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:33 am 
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    seanfish wrote:
    shangalar wrote:
    And last complement for today:
    Zug in military terms is a squad.


    "Zug Zug" is an Orcish military term often used interchangeably with "Stop clicking me!"


    Dat reference

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:36 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    kaylasdad99 wrote:


    I haven’t seen anyone satisfactorily explain why Claud cannot make a couple more guns right now.


    He doesn't have the wrench, and therefore doesn't have access to the Carnymancy necessary to auto special a gun.

    Possible, I suppose, but it wouldn't be the wrench since that's a dirtamancy-carnymancy item and Claud didn't know how to use it before this turn. More likely, I would say it is that he doesn't have enough juice. It is either something he cannot do in one turn, like a moll is, or it's simply such a large fraction of his juice that it's a bad tactical choice. He does have other things he can do, like make units to screen. Making a gun would limit those other options, and doesn't by itself solve any of their problems.

    On another note: the bunker IS what Ivan means. The crossfire is great if you can do it, but just by making the enemy line up in a tunnel with the bunker at the far end, you accomplish most of that goal.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:17 am 
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    twhitt wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    kaylasdad99 wrote:


    I haven’t seen anyone satisfactorily explain why Claud cannot make a couple more guns right now.


    He doesn't have the wrench, and therefore doesn't have access to the Carnymancy necessary to auto special a gun.

    Possible, I suppose, but it wouldn't be the wrench since that's a dirtamancy-carnymancy item and Claud didn't know how to use it before this turn. More likely, I would say it is that he doesn't have enough juice. It is either something he cannot do in one turn, like a moll is, or it's simply such a large fraction of his juice that it's a bad tactical choice. He does have other things he can do, like make units to screen. Making a gun would limit those other options, and doesn't by itself solve any of their problems.

    On another note: the bunker IS what Ivan means. The crossfire is great if you can do it, but just by making the enemy line up in a tunnel with the bunker at the far end, you accomplish most of that goal.



    I'm pretty sure (if I remember right) that to make guns GK had to have their Dirtamancer link up with their Dollamancer...and even those weren't auto-specialized. So without a thinkamancer to link the two they can't just make more.

    obuw wrote:
    So in essence, what they need is more like a bunker.

    Third, aren't these guys all dirtamancers? Couldn't they just, you know, cause a cave-in and bury ivan/cloud/wanda in their own bunker?

    (And why are they shooting at the dirt wall with guns, when they could get rid of it using dirtamancy? Preserving juice I guess?)


    I vaguely remember the Dirtamancers that are chasing them had to use most of their juice to make scrolls to get through the bedrock at all to be down there. Some may have a little juice but considering that Claud and Ivan are both full from stealing it from the srouce (using the gate) whatever structures they can throw up (and I think both Dollamancers and Dirtamancers can create structures though I may be wrong and it might just be Dirtamancers) should be able to withstand the dirtamancers just because they have more juice to keep throwing them up or repairing them. They just need something that can protect them somehow from bullets.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:54 am 
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    Claude could make more rifles and Ivan could make some bullets for them
    if they can decide its worth it to spare the juice
    But neither can impart the auto-special (Archer - rifle) needed to make it usable by an erfworlder, needs weirdomancy.

    And I think the dirt barrier the MK dudes are shooting into just popped up a fraction of a second ago, just in the nick of time to catch the volley...(a borrowed tactic of the earth-benders in the world of Avatar)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:12 am 
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    Kryton wrote:
    Claude could make more rifles and Ivan could make some bullets for them
    if they can decide its worth it to spare the juice
    But neither can impart the auto-special (Archer - rifle) needed to make it usable by an erfworlder, needs weirdomancy.

    That's one of the theories, but please remember that they are just that -- theories. We actually have no idea how the guns were made yet.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:56 am 
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    Side note that just occurred to me, *if* Claude and Ivan are capable of creating an extra rifle on the fly then they could probably create an extra machine gun as well/instead. Erfworld's machine guns only take one person to operate and their main disadvantage seems to be portability, which might not be much of an issue right now. If the manual pictured is for an MG08 then the erfworld counterpart would, after all, be CC's tripod machine guns.

    obuw wrote:
    Third, aren't these guys all dirtamancers? Couldn't they just, you know, cause a cave-in and bury ivan/cloud/wanda in their own bunker?
    I'm suddenly seeeing a very Fortnite-esque battle, with both sides trying to shoot each other with guns and using near-instant construction of walls and ramps to try and gain the advantage. Ivan may be the only dirtamancer on Wanda's side but he's full on juice and used to creating gun-focused defenses.

    kaylasdad99 wrote:
    Quote:
    (And why are they shooting at the dirt wall with guns, when they could get rid of it using dirtamancy? Preserving juice I guess?)

    Probably a combination of them not having much juice left after making their scrolls, and panicky brain-farts. They’ve got the guns, might as well use them.
    Panicked shooting does seem to be the default defensive behavior of the dirtamancers to obstacles or threats. Not that I can blame them.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:54 am 
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    DukeofTuring wrote:
    Side note that just occurred to me, *if* Claude and Ivan are capable of creating an extra rifle on the fly then they could probably create an extra machine gun as well/instead. Erfworld's machine guns only take one person to operate and their main disadvantage seems to be portability, which might not be much of an issue right now. If the manual pictured is for an MG08 then the erfworld counterpart would, after all, be CC's tripod machine guns.


    Building a tripod would be a good option after building a fortification point at the end of a corridor. They'd have to wait till all or most of them are inside the corridor before firing or they'll likely try to dig around the fortification. Problem still might be juice though. Ivan has to work on a decent structure as well as making a ton of ammo. I know we don't have much for numbers, but it didn't seem like Sizemore could create that much ammo per turn.
    Auto Specialization might not be a problem if it can carry over from another weapon. Assuming the gun type doesn't matter.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 187
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:22 pm 
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    guynietoren wrote:
    Building a tripod would be a good option after building a fortification point at the end of a corridor. They'd have to wait till all or most of them are inside the corridor before firing or they'll likely try to dig around the fortification. Problem still might be juice though. Ivan has to work on a decent structure as well as making a ton of ammo. I know we don't have much for numbers, but it didn't seem like Sizemore could create that much ammo per turn.
    Auto Specialization might not be a problem if it can carry over from another weapon. Assuming the gun type doesn't matter.


    Page 136 says that tripods can't be used by ordinary troops, which seems to suggest they don't autospecial. https://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/136

    Claud might still be able to use one, though.

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