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 Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
 Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:42 am 
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Lipkin wrote:
The Pliers were Foolproof, as in Foolamancy. They could not be unlocked with Foolamancy (or Thinkamancy, or Lookamancy). But Big Think recently learned how to use some Dirtmancy and Dollmancy. And they used that knowledge to unlock the Pliers and gain a limited understanding. Enough to realize they could awaken it.


That makes sense. Thanks.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:45 am 
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    I believe the Dish can draw unlimited power from the Source without a connection... it still grants unlimited Thinkagrams, after all. It just has enhanced powers with a shocked connection.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:50 am 
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    Ansan Gotti wrote:
    I believe the Dish can draw unlimited power from the Source without a connection... it still grants unlimited Thinkagrams, after all. It just has enhanced powers with a shocked connection.


    This suggests that the 'Pliers can be superpowered by connecting them up to a Portal pillar. It further suggests that Wanda hasn't scratched the surface of what the 'Pliers are capable of.

    I observe that the pliers and their bearer are surrounded by Portal pillars.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:50 am 
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    So I'm exclusively an irc chatter (until now) but I just want to post a few things I think I've pieced together from this update:

    1) The voice in the comic is the pliers (obviously) but is also the thing that used to be Big Think - they've merged and become one entity.

    Quote:
    It was followed by a Decision (note the capital "D" - it's a specific thinkamancy "Decision-tree Decision") to end my not-life. It may only have been preferable to further dealing with her, but that's what the fragments decided to do, and that's why they only live now as fragments.


    So the "fragments" are kind of dead in that they no longer have a will - they're part of the new being.

    2) Big Think "copied" Dollamancy and Dirtamancy (gained a functional understanding of them) by linking with Claude and Ivan. Through this understanding they were able to figure out the pliers.

    What the pliers do is grant life to units that are created by a caster. Wanda could attune because she sets up the pliers with the right kind of raw materials - uncroaked units - to which the pliers can then"dispense Turnamancy" (give motivation - we learned from Vanna the ways that Turnamancy is fundamental to thinking units).

    The reason Dollamancy and Dirtamancy were essential to getting this understanding is because both of those disciplines can create units that are almost alive but are missing elements. The missing element isn't just Thinkamancy - the units do have strings but what Maggie was describing when she saw the limits of Thinkamancy where Thinkies are blind to the ocean but can see a cork floating on the surface and think to describe the water just by the motion of the cork. That's what the pliers can do for created units. Bringing the towers to life made them realize or learn how to do that* - because that was their trick, instead of attuning Big Think brought the pliers to life.

    This gives an (out of story) reason for the narrative focus on Bill's quest to make "real dolls" - if he had the pliers, he could (maybe). That he didn't have the pliers or another Titanic tool shows his hubris - he thought that his discipline contained all there was to know but was blind to what he was missing as Maggie realized the GMTTA were.

    *Also, towers are able to create life - as (IIRC) Huehue said it created Bill

    3) Maybe a Dirtamancer or Dollamancer could attune to the pliers:

    Quote:
    Croakamancy takes the Titans' cast off-toys (as in the corpses, because units are a 'toy' of the titans) and makes them dance like rag dolls for a few more turns (which is the normal Croakamancy thing). It helps them get used to the transition. (the transition to being actually alive again)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:52 am 
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    Ansan Gotti wrote:
    I believe the Dish can draw unlimited power from the Source without a connection... it still grants unlimited Thinkagrams, after all. It just has enhanced powers with a shocked connection.


    That implies that giving the Pliers a shocked connection could allow Wanda additional faculties. Like maybe decrypting across hexes.

    In lieu of a shocked connection, a cable to the Hammer might suffice.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:53 am 
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    Lingo wrote:
    Hmm, so the Pliers are analogous to a "portable portal pillar", i.e. a portable tower/temple? Looks like I was right about something for once.

    Now, the awakening of the pliers...this is not something I predicted!!!


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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 2:09 am 
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    Ugh! Okay, I'm slow, I just got this:
    Quote:
    The 'not' is always calling.

    Not = nought = zero. The zero is always calling!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 2:15 am 
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    1) "So they unlocked me. And what those fragments found inside seemed familiar to them. I drink from the Source. I dispense Turnamancy. I feel primal. They concluded that I am like a portable portal pillar."

    These are all assessments made by Big Think before he was assimilated into the PlierBorg. Note it is not that PlierBorg says is true. "Seemed" "Feel" "Like" are all very vague assessments.

    2) "You" : is definitely Isaac reborn.

    3) Does the light from the PlierBorg reveal what is "truly" underlying things - circults connecting portal framents to pillars and through the bedrock, Isaac being composed of tangled strings?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 2:18 am 
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    OK, let me see what I get.
    "she didn't let 'them' copy croakamancy". Wanda didn't join as a moon to DeIsaac to be able to use it, but they can use the other skills they copied.
    That would mean "this fragments I have" ... is DeIsaac?
    Did they awake the tool and the tool "has" them now? Or does the tool consider they own whoever holds them?

    ..."and that's why they only live as fragments" yup. Seems like the tool has a body now... oh darn.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 2:19 am 
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    The arkendish doesn't need a shocked connection to work. The shocked connection is to facilitate Charlie connecting directly to it from afar via magical wires. At it's maximum size, it won't fit inside a building, so it has to be mounted atop the tower. Since he has security paranoia issues, he refuses to go outside and touch it directly, and thus his shocked connection is required.

    Note that after the portal column was broken and Charlescomm lost it's shockmancy, he could still interface directly with the Arkendish via his wires, but it was agonizingly slow for him, and he couldn't stand dealing with such a low bandwidth link to the Dish.

    So he had it removed from the tower and shrunken down to a size that could fit inside the building, but still allow him to touch it directly. The smaller size still inhibited some of it's functions, like 'extrauniverse channels', so it's still not ideal for him.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 2:22 am 
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    Shai hulud wrote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGp9P6QvMjY

    It may have been unwise to bring an ancient artifact of death to life.


    You don't know, maybe it's one of those friendly ancient artifacts of death!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 2:29 am 
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    Polvane the eraser wrote:
    That implies that giving the Pliers a shocked connection could allow Wanda additional faculties. Like maybe decrypting across hexes.

    Or maybe directly decrypting units that aren't dead. :shock:

    As for the various theories about Arkentools "racking up a debt" at the Source, I'm somewhat skeptical for the moment. The only mentions we have of whether using the Tools is good or bad come from Wanda, who feels that the Pliers gave her a mission, and said it was bad for Judy not to use her Arkenshoes. If there's a reason not to use the Tools, it's something that not even a very old, experienced, Attuned unit would know.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 2:35 am 
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    Bzro wrote:
    Shai hulud wrote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGp9P6QvMjY

    It may have been unwise to bring an ancient artifact of death to life.


    You don't know, maybe it's one of those friendly ancient artifacts of death!


    There is no data either way, however it may be friendly to Wanda and, therefore, Stanley's Side.


    ...additionally, it may be a Turnamancy artifact, rather than an ancient artifact of death (Croakamancy). It simply appears that it uses Croakamancy as a catalyst to give the Decrypted unlimited Motion, and therefore no decay time and no need for upkeep.

    I theorize, on limited data, that a Shocked connection could potentially give Decrypted units unlimited Move as well.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 2:38 am 
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    And boop.

    That is so very interesting.
    "To end my not-life". Hrm, Hard to say if this means they decided to awaken the pliers, or if they were trying to destroy the arkenpliers and accidentally awakened it?

    Also... Did this just imply that the pliers embody all of the 'Erf' sphere of magic?

    So the Hammer would be 'Numbers', and the dish embodies 'Fate'?

    Actually I see some problems with that, so how about
    'Life'(Pliers/or Dish?), 'Motion'(Dish/or Pliers?), and 'Matter'(Hammer)?

    The Dish is sometimes believed to be responsible for the rapid popping of Archons by Charlie, and the Hammer was turning pigeons into walnuts if I recall.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 2:43 am 
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    A life freely given.
    A gift given, is not easily removed.
    To a Tool for only one will.
    But not their will.

    To play Titan with a Tool.
    To regret this Decision.
    To end a Tool with their Mind.
    A Fool's errand really.

    Give a Mind to the infinite.
    A source of countless.
    And unlimited power.
    Of perfect control.

    An unstable Mind.
    In an unstable body.
    Of finite energy.
    Is easily destroyed.

    So the Tool lives on.
    But sayonara, the Mind.
    A puppet believed.
    That it controlled its strings.

    Arrogance. Pride.
    A mouse thinking it's a Titan.
    From pride to the fall.
    Of the Great Minds.

    -Rhymomancy log #1

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 2:53 am 
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    For the Minds made a Mind.
    The Minds believed.
    That they were in control.
    But a Tool is a Tool.

    It has its uses.
    But who here is the Tool?
    And who is the tool?
    The answer is easy.

    For a Tool is a Tool.
    And a tool, a tool.
    Once a tool has worn down.
    It is of no use.

    A tool discarded by a Tool.
    It served its purpose.
    It had become a detriment.
    So out it goes.

    The Tool, now alive.
    Could choose its tools.
    It can choose its not-tools.
    And it knows its Master.

    -Personal Rhymomancy Log #2

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 3:01 am 
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    Can logic gates be made out of strings. Like NOT. To meke something NOT alive or NOT dead... Just a random idea...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 3:01 am 
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    Deo wrote:
    And boop.

    That is so very interesting.
    "To end my not-life". Hrm, Hard to say if this means they decided to awaken the pliers, or if they were trying to destroy the arkenpliers and accidentally awakened it?


    Unlikely. The update suggests that the State-8 Decided (capital 'D') to try to awaken the 'Pliers like they did with the portal pillars, since they thought the Arkentool had more-or-less the same properties.

    Deo wrote:
    Also... Did this just imply that the pliers embody all of the 'Erf' sphere of magic?

    So the Hammer would be 'Numbers', and the dish embodies 'Fate'?

    Actually I see some problems with that, so how about
    'Life'(Pliers/or Dish?), 'Motion'(Dish/or Pliers?), and 'Matter'(Hammer)?

    The Dish is sometimes believed to be responsible for the rapid popping of Archons by Charlie, and the Hammer was turning pigeons into walnuts if I recall.


    The update mentions Turnamancy in conjunction with the 'Pliers, and it is reasonable to assume that this covers Motion (Croakamancy also takes advantage of Motion: see the update when the volcano was Uncroaked). I submit that therefore the 'Pliers cover Motion.

    ...although the 'Shoes are also a good candidate for Motion, given that they confer unlimited Move. I have no solid data, but there is enough circumstantial data to support the general idea behind this hypothesis.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 3:03 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    Charlie talked about the Dish like it was a Lovecraftian horror. An ancient, alien intelligence to be feared. But the Pliers also state that they drink from the Source, while Charlie had to rig a connection to his portal to power the Dish. That says to me that the Dish isn't in super mode while it's on a powered connection. Rather, it's functioning as it should.

    Why doesn't the Dish work as it should?


    Perhaps, Charlie isn't attuned? Perhaps the rumors were right and he simply uses Carnymancy to fake attunement.

    What I did get out of this is that the ArkenPliers is like a capital pillar and is connected to the Source. Furthermore, it's not sure the Titans exist. Stories had it that the Tools were used to build the Erf and the Towers remember who they popped. HueHue knew it popped Bill. It had knowledge before it was "alive". Knowledge from when it "not-lived". Yet the Pliers doesn't remember its supposed Masters.

    That gets me thinking. If the Pliers function as a pillar, then maybe it is one. Maybe some ancient cult removed some pillars and made the Tools. Maybe they took the raw power of the pillars and give their power a focused direction. If so, the ritual would have had many steps and involved many links (just getting to them would have been hard enough). So much knowledge would have to be lost. And given that Thinkamancers can use Mind Wipe on themselves and others... Maybe the knowledge was lost intentionally...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 3:11 am 
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    They did it, the absolute MADMEN did it! They AWAKENED AN ARKENTOOL! And the Arkentool itself states it's Turnamancy with a direct link to the Source. Is this magic allowed to draw directly from the Source? Because otherwise Charlie AND Stanley have been siphoning of energy without permission for quite some turns already.

    But now, even the Arkentool is claiming it knows not of the Titans? Maybe because it was not-living before, so it has no memory, as it claims?

    By the way, how many more things could be awakend by a link of Think-, Dirt- and Dollamancy?

    There's still parts of Longneck and Eyeglasses living in Pineapple, that's... I don't know if that's good or bad.

    And last thing, is the "you" it's addressing us, the readers?

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