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 Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
 Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:06 am 
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Lipkin wrote:
The good news is that Big Think shouldn't last past the turn, and they can't take over the world in a single turn.



Assumption. Big Think would not have lasted past the turn had they remained as they were.

They are no longer as they were, and are now potentially a part of an ancient artifact.

More data required.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:07 am 
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    Shard wrote:
    Cinder39134 wrote:
    Or am I getting really confused? In fact, is this update from POV of the Pliers or of Deisaac as separate from his constituent fragments? That I suspect may be the key question.

    This is from the PoV of our Arkentool.

    Looks like Isaac just awakened it.


    Yeah, apparantly the arkenpliers have a lot of similarity with a tower. The minds awakened the tower in a similar way they awakened Shirley, Huehue, Templeton, and the other towers. The pliers are essentially a portable tower.

    This also answer a few questions:
    - Why do decrypted not have upkeep? Because instead of Jed needing to supply the upkeep like with the regular units, this portable tower provides it instead.
    - How could TV not notice that their captured decrypted unit Jack not have upkeep? Probably because TV did have to pay for jacks upkeep. While captured, Maggies upkeep was supplied by Huehue instead of Jed. And Jacks upkeep was supplied by HueHue instead of the pliers. TV had to pay for both of them equally.

    And also since Wanda did not actually pay smuckers for the upkeep the pliers supplied, could it get her in as much trouble as Charlie stealing the portal energy did?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:08 am 
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    Knott wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    Oh fuck. I just grasped the entire consequence of these events.

    The Pliers drink from the Source like pillars do. So in theory, portable infinite juice. Big Think can remotely cut strings. The Pliers claims ownership of the fragments, meaning that Big Think belongs to it now. So the Pliers, in theory, can now cuts strings.


    The Pliers could already cut strings. But we don't know for sure if it was just limited to H-Strings, but if it could now cut G-strings and couldn't before, then that's a game changer.

    If it controls Big Think, it can now remotely cut G-strings.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:11 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    The pliers are alive, and they can break the 4th wall.

    That. Is. Terrifying.


    That just reminded me of something. Many years ago, I noted a strange dichotomy in this comic. Parson Gotti is a creator of turn-based strategy games who has become a unit in what is essentially a turn-based strategy game, and he uses his knowledge of this medium to his advantage. BUT, Parson Gotti is also a creator of a web-comic who has not yet realized that he is a character in a different web-comic. A lot of readers have speculated that Parson's eventual real enemy will be Fate. But in any literary work "Fate" is just another word for authorial fiat. I can't imagine how this would eventually play out, but is it possible that the ultimate enemy Parson Gotti must defeat is ... Rob Balder?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:12 am 
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    Citizen Alan wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    The pliers are alive, and they can break the 4th wall.

    That. Is. Terrifying.


    That just reminded me of something. Many years ago, I noted a strange dichotomy in this comic. Parson Gotti is a creator of turn-based strategy games who has become a unit in what is essentially a turn-based strategy game, and he uses his knowledge of this medium to his advantage. BUT, Parson Gotti is also a creator of a web-comic who has not yet realized that he is a character in a different web-comic. A lot of readers have speculated that Parson's eventual real enemy will be Fate. But in any literary work "Fate" is just another word for authorial fiat. I can't imagine how this would eventually play out, but is it possible that the ultimate enemy Parson Gotti must defeat is ... Rob Balder?

    Animal Man vs Grant Morrison

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:13 am 
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    Quote:
    According to these fragments that I have... these fragments that I have... wanted to live.
    [...]
    There was then a discussion. It was followed by a Decision to end my not-life. It may only have been preferable to further dealing with her, but that's what the fragments decide to do, and that's why they only live now as fragments.

    So... does this imply after DeIsaac awakened the pliers, the pliers unravelled DeIsaac (the fragments) so it is no longer a collective 8.2 state, and the final artwork is showing what it looked like right when it started to happen?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:15 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    Charlie talked about the Dish like it was a Lovecraftian horror. An ancient, alien intelligence to be feared.

    Yes and imminently yes.
    Lipkin wrote:
    But the Pliers also state that they drink from the Source, while Charlie had to rig a connection to his portal to power the Dish. That says to me that the Dish isn't in super mode while it's on a powered connection. Rather, it's functioning as it should.

    Why doesn't the Dish work as it should?

    I might not be seeing your readout right-side-up. It's seemed to me that the Dish lacks a super mode unless it's on a powered connection. [ponders] I guess the real question is, how much was the Dish really intended to do? The Pliers drink from the Source; was the Dish ever intended to do so? I'm guessing no, but I'm no Titan. I'm just a guy who tends to assume that Charlie got all his biggest advantages by altering what was already there. (Rather successfully so far, granted.)

    Now, even unpowered, the Dish still has plenty of great functions. If "as it should" at least includes any-channel (albeit single-channel) unlimited Thinkagrams, I still count that as strong. Throw in the long-distance links for good measure, and maybe the extrauniverse channels, though with a full-size very-high Dish that would require a scaffold of some sort. (No comment re: the nebulous overclocking.)

    All of this is to suggest: your classic Tool-assembling theory still holds up even if the Dish wasn't meant to drink straight from the source. With Arkentool powering another, then we get an electrical series. In that case, this update suggests that the intended framework runs from Source to Pliers to... whichever Tool(s) comes next in the instruction manual.

    In that case, what Charlie did is no less or more than a short circuit... which would mean that sooner or later, something's gonna burn out, and the warranty would be null and void.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:16 am 
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    Don't think this has been mentioned yet:

    The Pliers are now alive. How can they become not-alive again? Cuz I'm fairly sure they're indestructible. I don't think tossing them into Mount Doom would work. They already survived the Volcano Uncroaking.

    Also:

    Quote:
    'I was a Foolproof lock.' 'So they unlocked me.'


    I'm really not sure what that means. I deduce that the State 8 analyzed the Pliers and deduced some of its functions, but I'm confused by the apparent contradiction between 'Foolproof lock' and 'they unlocked me'.

    Also, unlocking came before the State 8 Awakened the Pliers (i.e., 'a Decision to end my not-life').

    Another:

    Quote:
    It may only have been preferable to further dealing with her, but that's what the fragments decided to do, and that's why they only live now as fragments.


    From this, I am guessing the Pliers believe that the reason nearly all the Great Minds croaked (and thus became the State 8) is that they Decided to betray Wanda.

    Not sure why the Pliers believe that, but that's the only interpretation I can see.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:19 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    Oh fuck. I just grasped the entire consequence of these events.

    The Pliers drink from the Source like pillars do. So in theory, portable infinite juice. Big Think can remotely cut strings. The Pliers claims ownership of the fragments, meaning that Big Think belongs to it now. So the Pliers, in theory, can now cuts strings.

    What is stopping the Pliers from stepping into the Magic Kingdom, cutting the strings of every caster in the hex, and then immediately decrypting them?

    Edit: At this point, Wanda would have reunited with the Pliers. They then step through Faq's portal, and cut the strings of everyone but Marie. The portal stays open, because Albert becomes ruler, and the city stays Faq because Marie turned and is still in the hex. Wanda then kills Marie and claims the city for herself.

    :shock:

    Er... ah... um...

    ...the Principle of Justice?

    [Run away!]

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:22 am 
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    MostTornBrain wrote:
    Quote:
    According to these fragments that I have... these fragments that I have... wanted to live.
    [...]
    There was then a discussion. It was followed by a Decision to end my not-life. It may only have been preferable to further dealing with her, but that's what the fragments decide to do, and that's why they only live now as fragments.

    So... does this imply after DeIsaac awakened the pliers, the pliers unravelled DeIsaac (the fragments) so it is no longer a collective 8.2 state, and the final artwork is showing what it looked like right when it started to happen?


    No, I think it means that if they had gone to Wanda, instead of awakening the pliers, Wanda could have decrypted, and this cured them. But instead they kept themselves in there fragmented state. The pliers might be able to permanently keep them alive now, but they will always be fragmented.

    Something else I just picked up from the update, is Wanda didn't link with the minds like Claude and ivan did, and thus Big Think did not pick up any croakamancy. If Wanda had, then then Big Think may have full control over the pliers like Wanda did. So it is a good thing she never joined in. Otherwise who knows what the minds could do.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:27 am 
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    The strings on the floor look like a circuit board. Will the arkenpliers have a technological signamancy now, as the arkendish?
    That green color may be related to the GK portal, but it may also be specific of the arkenplier. Does anyone know what are the red and light blue strings on this page?

    http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/95

    And by the way, it sure looks like the Pliers can be used for string cutting.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:29 am 
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    Brother Mirtillo wrote:
    I might not be seeing your readout right-side-up. It's seemed to me that the Dish lacks a super mode unless it's on a powered connection. [ponders] I guess the real question is, how much was the Dish really intended to do? The Pliers drink from the Source; was the Dish ever intended to do so? I'm guessing no, but I'm no Titan. I'm just a guy who tends to assume that Charlie got all his biggest advantages by altering what was already there. (Rather successfully so far, granted.)

    Now, even unpowered, the Dish still has plenty of great functions. If "as it should" at least includes any-channel (albeit single-channel) unlimited Thinkagrams, I still count that as strong. Throw in the long-distance links for good measure, and maybe the extrauniverse channels, though with a full-size very-high Dish that would require a scaffold of some sort. (No comment re: the nebulous overclocking.)

    All of this is to suggest: your classic Tool-assembling theory still holds up even if the Dish wasn't meant to drink straight from the source. With Arkentool powering another, then we get an electrical series. In that case, this update suggests that the intended framework runs from Source to Pliers to... whichever Tool(s) comes next in the instruction manual.

    In that case, what Charlie did is no less or more than a short circuit... which would mean that sooner or later, something's gonna burn out, and the warranty would be null and void.

    I'm saying that the settings of the Dish aren't "Regular" and "Super." They are "Nerfed" and "Regular." The Tools are meant to draw power from the source, and to be powerful in the extreme. But for some reason, the Dish can't draw power from the Source without a physical connection, unlike the Pliers. I had been operating under the hypothesis that the Hammer generated shockmancy. But now it seems more likely that it draws it from the Source like the Pliers do. This means that the Hammer wouldn't be able to pay the Source back for stolen juice, and that powering the Dish with them might be redundant.

    Polvane the eraser wrote:

    Quote:
    'I was a Foolproof lock.' 'So they unlocked me.'


    I'm really not sure what that means. I deduce that the State 8 analyzed the Pliers and deduced some of its functions, but I'm confused by the apparent contradiction between 'Foolproof lock' and 'they unlocked me'.


    The Pliers were Foolproof, as in Foolamancy. They could not be unlocked with Foolamancy (or Thinkamancy, or Lookamancy). But Big Think recently learned how to use some Dirtmancy and Dollmancy. And they used that knowledge to unlock the Pliers and gain a limited understanding. Enough to realize they could awaken it.

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    Last edited by Lipkin on Wed May 30, 2018 1:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:30 am 
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    Sir Dr D wrote:
    Shard wrote:
    Cinder39134 wrote:
    Or am I getting really confused? In fact, is this update from POV of the Pliers or of Deisaac as separate from his constituent fragments? That I suspect may be the key question.

    This is from the PoV of our Arkentool.

    Looks like Isaac just awakened it.


    Yeah, apparantly the arkenpliers have a lot of similarity with a tower. The minds awakened the tower in a similar way they awakened Shirley, Huehue, Templeton, and the other towers. The pliers are essentially a portable tower.

    This also answer a few questions:
    - Why do decrypted not have upkeep? Because instead of Jed needing to supply the upkeep like with the regular units, this portable tower provides it instead.
    - How could TV not notice that their captured decrypted unit Jack not have upkeep? Probably because TV did have to pay for jacks upkeep. While captured, Maggies upkeep was supplied by Huehue instead of Jed. And Jacks upkeep was supplied by HueHue instead of the pliers. TV had to pay for both of them equally.

    And also since Wanda did not actually pay smuckers for the upkeep the pliers supplied, could it get her in as much trouble as Charlie stealing the portal energy did?


    YES THIS!!!

    This also fits very nicely why sides with the arkentools tend to fall. Easteros and Westeregg fell, despite having two arkentools. Why? Fate felt the source draining / debt accumulating and slapped them down with Judy.

    Charlie had an empire. Fate feels him source draining / debt accumulating. Guess who's coming to dinner?

    Wanda, Stanley, whoever gets the Arkendish?
    Spoiler: show
    Maybe the Shoes are Fated to never be found... Why would the Source want anything back that sucks it dry? What if Parson never finds out about the pliers being a source or of the source itself?


    Do schmuckers come from the same source? A different source for numbers?

    Also deliciously horrifying...

    The fragments / DeIssac have a shadow... Guess what newly awakened's shadow is the circuit board drawing juice from the source. Makes you wonder what else has circuits powering them.

    The Arkenpliers dispense Turnamancy (= motivation = life? Would Wanda and Mad Max had more success uncroaking had they linked with Haffaton's Turnamancer?)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:32 am 
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    Polvane the eraser wrote:
    The Pliers are now alive. How can they become not-alive again? Cuz I'm fairly sure they're indestructible. I don't think tossing them into Mount Doom would work. They already survived the Volcano Uncroaking.


    In this current update, "not-alive" does not appear to mean the same as thing as "destroyed". It may be possible for another Arkentool to sever the mind-fragments that currently inhabit the Arkenpliers and give it awareness; the Arkendish would be a reasonable bet.

    Polvane the eraser wrote:
    Also:

    Quote:
    'I was a Foolproof lock.' 'So they unlocked me.'


    I'm really not sure what that means. I deduce that the State 8 analyzed the Pliers and deduced some of its functions, but I'm confused by the apparent contradiction between 'Foolproof lock' and 'they unlocked me'.


    I shall start with the essential part that you missed:

    Quote:
    But then, the fragments which lived in the perception of Dollamancy and Dirtamancy inferred what those dimensions have in common with Croakamancy, which isn't a whole lot


    This infers that the Dollamancy and Dirtamancy aspects of the State-8 cobbled together a rudimentary key from those two disciplines, and thus unlocked the Foolproof lock. The rest of the update suggests that this means that the State-8 Attuned to the pliers.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:34 am 
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    Hmm, so the Pliers are analogous to a "portable portal pillar", i.e. a portable tower/temple? Looks like I was right about something for once.

    Now, the awakening of the pliers...this is not something I predicted!!!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:36 am 
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    Polvane the eraser wrote:
    Quote:
    It may only have been preferable to further dealing with her, but that's what the fragments decided to do, and that's why they only live now as fragments.


    From this, I am guessing the Pliers believe that the reason nearly all the Great Minds croaked (and thus became the State 8) is that they Decided to betray Wanda. Not sure why the Pliers believe that, but that's the only interpretation I can see.


    I think it’s more sinister than that... when the Pliers learned Big Think awakened it to avoid dealing with a Wanda they dislike and distrust, the Pliers croaked Big Think out of loyalty to Wanda.

    By the way, this is also the way that Wanda can end up being decrypted, which many of us have speculated would happen eventually.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:37 am 
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    Caprice wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    Why doesn't the Dish work as it should?

    Maybe because Charlie's attunement was some sort of Carny hack with Maxwell's assistance?
    Though who's to say the Pliers wouldn't work better if they were plugged in and resized to maximum? Interuniversal decryption, anyone? :wanda:


    Maybe attuning is normally a process via H-Strings. Big Think wouldn’t understand that connection/perspective and Charlie’s poisoning by Olive likely damaged or eliminated his H-String connection to the Dish.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:37 am 
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    Lingo wrote:
    Hmm, so the Pliers are analogous to a "portable portal pillar", i.e. a portable tower/temple? Looks like I was right about something for once.

    Now, the awakening of the pliers...this is not something I predicted!!!

    Well called. Certainly seems to be the case.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:38 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    Knott wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    Oh fuck. I just grasped the entire consequence of these events.

    The Pliers drink from the Source like pillars do. So in theory, portable infinite juice. Big Think can remotely cut strings. The Pliers claims ownership of the fragments, meaning that Big Think belongs to it now. So the Pliers, in theory, can now cuts strings.


    The Pliers could already cut strings. But we don't know for sure if it was just limited to H-Strings, but if it could now cut G-strings and couldn't before, then that's a game changer.

    If it controls Big Think, it can now remotely cut G-strings.


    This is a broad assumption. More data required.

    The pliers have the fragments of Big Think. This does not necessarily mean that it can use Big Think's powers and abilities; the only thing currently confirmed is only that it is using the fragments of mind to be self-aware.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 326
     Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:41 am 
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    Knott wrote:
    I thought it a bit unusual to have this much text without an early introduction of the perspective, but damn, I got goosbumps when I read the line: "I was just an ordinary weapon to them".

    Absolutely -- that line was the catalyst for me, too. I knew it was something in conjunction with Wanda; I just didn't know it was some thing.

    Knott wrote:
    In leu of Attunement they fucking awakened the Arkenpliers!

    It also seems inferred that the Big Think is no longer an 8.2, but something different, something New..

    "...something notorious."

    :wanda: "Don't you mean glori--?"

    "Oh, I hope not."

    Lipkin wrote:
    I'm saying that the settings of the Dish aren't "Regular" and "Super." They are "Nerfed" and "Regular." The Tools are meant to draw power from the source, and to be powerful in the extreme. But for some reason, the Dish can't draw power from the Source without a physical connection, unlike the Pliers. I had been operating under the hypothesis that the Hammer generated shockmancy. But now it seems more likely that it draws it from the Source like the Pliers do. This means that the Hammer wouldn't be able to pay the Source back for stolen juice, and that powering the Dish with them might be redundant.

    Huh.

    If that's the case, then Stanley's the next one with some 'splaining to do, and Charlie deserves to get out of his time-out.

    That sounds perilous.

    ...It also sounds likely.

    _________________
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