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 Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 318
 Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:38 pm 
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I've seem tidbits of talk about archon Commanders/promotions and I may have a couple cents to throw in the conversation.

Is not as if CC could not promote any archon to commander. He simply would not.

Why?

He may have found that the mechanism behind the order undermines creative problem solving. And he, being all Charley and stuff, puts his clever craftsmanship above all.

When a commander gives an archon the order to attack, it goes in :charlie: auto-mode, taking from it the chance of thinking for themselves and, maybe, coming up with a smarter move (see broken chickens).

So, :charlie: picks an archon with the special: Leadership and goes on with it. It has the bonus a warlord might give, without capping the decision making of their pals.

Kind smart move, if you run a outsmart them all line of business.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 318
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:57 pm 
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    While it's certainly true Charlie would be unlikely to promote archons to warlord even if he could, I very much doubt he can barring a Weirdomancy caster link.

    We haven't seen any Warlords gain new specials with each level. Archons do. Their level up mechanics are completely different. If archons can be promoted to warlord by default, what would happen if the promoted archon had the leadership special before promotion? Would it get added to their warlord leadership special, become obsolete, or get removed?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 318
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:27 pm 
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    greycat wrote:
    JadedDragoon wrote:
    Don King: Yo, Caesar... think I've solved all our problems.
    Caesar: Really boss?
    Don King: Yep! I'm gonna take this portion of our treasury and promote you to noble.

    To Royal, you mean? Caesar's already a Noble.


    Yes, sorry.

    greycat wrote:
    My understanding of how this nobility crap works in Stupidworld is that commoners may be promoted into the nobility, but royalty is only conferred by genetics. A royal can marry anyone (although the other royals may look at 'em funny, and apparently this matters somehow), and their children will be royal. Then, the non-royal parent of the royal child gets some sort of honorary prestige, and sometimes a title like "consort", but everyone knows they're still really just a filthy peasant.


    However, there is precedent of monarchs adopting nobles into their family... making them royal in the process. Though all the examples that come immediately to mind happened in the middle east and asia during Roman times. But it seems like it wouldn't be a stretch for it to have happened in Medieval Europe.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 318
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:53 pm 
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    ManaCaster wrote:
    While it's certainly true Charlie would be unlikely to promote archons to warlord even if he could, I very much doubt he can barring a Weirdomancy caster link.

    We haven't seen any Warlords gain new specials with each level. Archons do. Their level up mechanics are completely different. If archons can be promoted to warlord by default, what would happen if the promoted archon had the leadership special before promotion? Would it get added to their warlord leadership special, become obsolete, or get removed?


    Archon seems like it's just another Class; their Race is still Men. I don't see why they couldn't be promoted to Warlord but they'd most likely lose their slot-machine specials leveling mechanic. I don't know if they'd keep all their existing specials, ask Lipkin about that one.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 318
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:55 pm 
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    Nimelennar wrote:
    Pages 313-314 show it to pretty likely that Maggionette is going to stop thinking when Bill croaks (unless she is able to take up residence in Maggie's head instead).

    I know it's still unclear, but to me, page 314 is showing Makaleka escaping from Bill's head, possibly taking from him whatever it was that made Bill a thinking unit.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 318
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:17 pm 
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    greycat wrote:
    I know it's still unclear, but to me, page 314 is showing Makaleka escaping from Bill's head, possibly taking from him whatever it was that made Bill a thinking unit.


    That theory seems to match the imagery from that update but not the text. Bill's dream is to make a Real Doll, a Living Doll, a Doll with a G-String inside. If the solution to that is to give up his own string, why is the makaleka mocking him about how his goal is unachievable, that she is a lie, instead of about how she was going to accomplish through his death what he never could in life?

    And how could she become able to accomplish this by based on learning in 313 that she "is not alive, and never can be?"

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 318
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:13 pm 
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    Kismet wrote:
    Archon seems like it's just another Class; their Race is still Men. I don't see why they couldn't be promoted to Warlord but they'd most likely lose their slot-machine specials leveling mechanic. I don't know if they'd keep all their existing specials, ask Lipkin about that one.

    Archons are not Men is any sense of the word. Different mechanics. Different pop times. We already know their class is Knight, so Archon isn't a class. Even ignoring all the mechanical differences, Archons exclusively seem to pop as female, and they glow. From a Signamancy and a mechanical stand point, they are different from Men.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 318
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:50 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    Kismet wrote:
    Archon seems like it's just another Class; their Race is still Men. I don't see why they couldn't be promoted to Warlord but they'd most likely lose their slot-machine specials leveling mechanic. I don't know if they'd keep all their existing specials, ask Lipkin about that one.

    Archons are not Men is any sense of the word. Different mechanics. Different pop times. We already know their class is Knight, so Archon isn't a class. Even ignoring all the mechanical differences, Archons exclusively seem to pop as female, and they glow. From a Signamancy and a mechanical stand point, they are different from Men.


    Image

    I think it's a specialized knight subclass, like Dragoon or Samurai in one of the Final Fantasy games, but I only know what the wiki tells me. I mean there are a whole lot of knight subclasses in Erfworld itself:

    Image

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 318
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:34 pm 
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    Kismet wrote:
    Archon seems like it's just another Class; their Race is still Men. I don't see why they couldn't be promoted to Warlord but they'd most likely lose their slot-machine specials leveling mechanic. I don't know if they'd keep all their existing specials, ask Lipkin about that one.

    I don't know for sure whether archons are the same race, but race isn't necessarily relevant to this conversation.

    For example, there is no natural method to promote units to caster, regardless of race.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 318
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:30 pm 
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    Kismet wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    Kismet wrote:
    Archon seems like it's just another Class; their Race is still Men. I don't see why they couldn't be promoted to Warlord but they'd most likely lose their slot-machine specials leveling mechanic. I don't know if they'd keep all their existing specials, ask Lipkin about that one.

    Archons are not Men is any sense of the word. Different mechanics. Different pop times. We already know their class is Knight, so Archon isn't a class. Even ignoring all the mechanical differences, Archons exclusively seem to pop as female, and they glow. From a Signamancy and a mechanical stand point, they are different from Men.


    Image

    I think it's a specialized knight subclass, like Dragoon or Samurai in one of the Final Fantasy games, but I only know what the wiki tells me. I mean there are a whole lot of knight subclasses in Erfworld itself:

    Image

    Unless edited by Rob, the Erfwiki is notoriously untrustworthy.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 318
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:49 pm 
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    While I generally agree that we shouldn't rule things out just because we haven't seen them happen, I have some questions regarding the possibility of promoting a unit to a Noble.

    For Transylvito, Don King and Caesar got along well until Don decided to favor a monarchy over a meritocracy. Caesar's Viscount status made him barely a Noble.

    If promoting to Nobility were possible, wouldn't Don King have been able to promote Caesar to a higher title? I'm sure if possible it would be expensive, but isn't it just as costly to pop a completely new Heir, plus the time it'll take to train them to be anywhere close to Caesar's level?

    Unless the issue was specifically that Don needed a Prince/Princess to continue the monarchy. But then again, if Nobility can be bought, why couldn't Royal status?

    Real Royalty are just normal people anyway, whose ancestors people decided should lead them.

    *puts on disguise to escape my palace and walk amongst the common folk*

    I don't have much to comment on about the comic itself, except that I'm still loving the banter between Marie and Templeton, and I'm quite pleased with the size of this update. I think the new format will do quite nicely. Good job Balder, Xin and Lillian!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 318
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:27 pm 
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    Jade wrote:
    If promoting to Nobility were possible, wouldn't Don King have been able to promote Caesar to a higher title?

    That wouldn't matter.

    I've said this somewhere before, but I think it bears repeating: those of us who don't come from a culture with an aristocracy don't really understand the basics. I didn't either. I've tried to pick it up by reading fantasy literature (aristocratic cultures dominate in these stories), reading a bit of European history, talking to people who live in Europe, etc.

    The fundamental concept is that there are three tiers of people:
    • Royals
    • Nobles
    • Commoners
    There is some limited mobility from the Common tier to the Noble tier, but it's rare. It's basically used as a reward for some exceptional service. It's almost completely unheard of for anyone not born Royal to join the Royal tier, at least in Europe. (Earlier, someone mentioned some adoptions in non-European cultures.)

    Caesar's not Royal, and it may not be possible for him to become Royal.

    Quote:
    I'm sure if possible it would be expensive, but isn't it just as costly to pop a completely new Heir, plus the time it'll take to train them to be anywhere close to Caesar's level?

    Level has nothing to do with it. Rank within the Nobility has nothing to do with it. You're either Royal, or you're not, and Caesar's not. Ability has nothing to do with it. Fitness to rule has nothing to do with it. The new heir could be a cross between George W. Bush and Donald Trump(*) and they'd still slap a crown on his head, because he's got a "1" in the Royal variable instead of a "0".

    (*)Or if you prefer: a cross between Stanley the Tool and Prince Albert Zamussels.

    Quote:
    Unless the issue was specifically that Don needed a Prince/Princess to continue the monarchy. But then again, if Nobility can be bought, why couldn't Royal status?

    Maybe. Depends on how closely Erfworld follows the European model.

    Quote:
    Real Royalty are just normal people anyway, whose ancestors people decided should lead them.

    Spoken like an American. :D

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