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 Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 309
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:06 pm 
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GreySage wrote:
The Unlurked wrote:
Charlie's been escalating his actions and Fate has responded by taking Its gloves off and making all of his actions lead to grotesque overreactions in the world. Whatever Charlie does, Fate undoes in a way that mirrors and amplifies his action back at him.

...

From a gaming perspective the GM is horribly screwing over his/her least favorite player to try to make him quit. Which comes back to Fate being the true antagonist, but I've gone on long enough.


I think you are mistaking "Fate" for "People who hate Charlie". Fate didn't create Big Think, they created themselves. Fate didn't bring back Parson, Jed did. Fate didn't create Shirley, or croak Tondy, or decrypt Ivan and Poe. Fate actually does very little. When Stanley missed Jillian, that was Fate interfering. All of Charlie's setbacks are the simple result of him over-reaching and the natural consequences of his enemies taking advantage of his weaknesses.

If you're going to blindly attribute every action that inconveniences Charlie in anyway to Fate then Fate has no meaning. Why not say everything Charlie does is Fate too? Why not say everything in the whole Erf is Fate, just screwing around for no reason? Everything that any unit does and everything in the natural world, including all RNG, is decided by Fate and on purpose?
It makes no sense from a worldbuilding perspective nor from a storytelling perspective and is just naive and reductive.



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GreySage wrote:
The Unlurked wrote:
Charlie's been escalating his actions and Fate has responded by taking Its gloves off and making all of his actions lead to grotesque overreactions in the world. Whatever Charlie does, Fate undoes in a way that mirrors and amplifies his action back at him.

...

From a gaming perspective the GM is horribly screwing over his/her least favorite player to try to make him quit. Which comes back to Fate being the true antagonist, but I've gone on long enough.


I think you are mistaking "Fate" for "People who hate Charlie". Fate didn't create Big Think, they created themselves. Fate didn't bring back Parson, Jed did. Fate didn't create Shirley, or croak Tondy, or decrypt Ivan and Poe. Fate actually does very little. When Stanley missed Jillian, that was Fate interfering. All of Charlie's setbacks are the simple result of him over-reaching and the natural consequences of his enemies taking advantage of his weaknesses.

If you're going to blindly attribute every action that inconveniences Charlie in anyway to Fate then Fate has no meaning. Why not say everything Charlie does is Fate too? Why not say everything in the whole Erf is Fate, just screwing around for no reason? Everything that any unit does and everything in the natural world, including all RNG, is decided by Fate and on purpose?
It makes no sense from a worldbuilding perspective nor from a storytelling perspective and is just naive and reductive.


I'll challenge anyone in this forum who thinks they can order Rob to give us a strict definition of where Fate's involvement and boundaries begin and end in this story.

It's not going to happen, it's part of the narrative, and it's part of what makes the story so interesting.

Also, I believe Fate by definition is meant to be naive and reductive. As in, Fate could or could not be responsible for anything that happens. Fate has it out for Charlie, therefore any actions taken against Charlie by anyone could potentially be Fate guiding them to take said actions through one set of circumstances or another. Fate may have lead Parson to toy with the idea of creating Jed in the first place. And Fate may have put the idea of how to bring Parson back into Jed's head. And so on, and so forth. It doesn't all have to be as direct as the instance where Fate stopped Stanley from hitting Jillian (which by the way, is something we BELIEVE Fate was responsible for, but may not actually be the case).


It's also possible that you're a brain in a jar and none of us or the world you think you are in are real. But why would you assume that to be the case without evidence?

Occam's Razor says that the simplest explanation is most likely the correct one. It's not always... but it very usually is. And the simplest explanation for Jed rescuing Parson does not involve Fate.

Your approach is like assuming your friends are talking about you behind your back because they could be. Or your wife is cheating on you simply cause she could be. It's irrational in the extreme.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 309
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:18 pm 
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    Alright people, page 10 is over, let's talk contract. :-)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 309
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:38 pm 
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    Another point for the obsessiveness of the writing & coloring team:
    Comparing this page against Book3/140 and 141, the color of a side's portal matches the color of the temple-pipe.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 309
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:58 pm 
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    It seems that with the help of Jed, Huehue has set up a Lulu that may have Charlie in deep Doo-Doo.

    Umbramom wrote:
    Another point for the obsessiveness of the writing & coloring team:
    Comparing this page against Book3/140 and 141, the color of a side's portal matches the color of the temple-pipe.


    Hm. Isn't Jetstone's portal a bluish one? Not that we've indication they have a temple yet....

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 309
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:02 pm 
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    keybounce wrote:
    Alright people, page 10 is over, let's talk contract. :-)

    OK. Charlie demanded:
    Update 307 wrote:
    Nullification of existing ceasefire agreement
    New unilateral ceasefire agreement, reverse of existing agreement

    Is it clever, or maddeningly frustrating that we still don't know what the original Don King / Charlie contract contained? (maybe both! :))

    What can we figure out? We know that Bill's actions (CC units attacking Skyy & Cheri) cost Charlie millions of schmuckers. We have confirmation that the contract was unilateral, so there still time for TV units (bats, goyles, or?) to attack Bill without penalty, and rescue Caesar -- especially since Bill has been ordered to stand down.

    Some claims have been made that Charlie could croak Caesar in an instant, even over the objections of Shirley. But I don't think this is possible. He would have to order Bill (or a doll/moll) to do it, right? Bill finally stood up to Caesar with the help of his new "friend" Charlie, but he's never been stable at the best of times. He's just screwed up and earned Charlie's rebuke. I don't think he has it in him right now to just walk up and croak Caesar in an instant, even if he is given a direct order (also, he knows it's suicide, update 304). Meanwhile there are few dolls/molls in close proximity (most of the rest shot by Skyy) so Benjamin, Jack, and Maggie (special focus on Magionette) should be able to screen Caesar from dolls for at least a few moments. A few moments may be all that is needed.

    Charlie's strong position in negotiations (at least from the perspective of his chief negotiator, Shirley) has been eroded away. I don't think he's gong to get most of his demands, including a new, reversed unilateral ceasefire agreement. It's fun to imagine Charlie failing to nullify the old contract, and then getting creamed by the old "TV bats through the portal" plan. However I think Shirley would at least agree to nullifying the existing contract as part of the negotiations, even if she refuses to grant Charlie any real gains.

    What IS Shirley going to decide is "fair" and force Charlie to accept?

    • Release Caesar
    • Allow TV to stand, at least until the heir pops
    • Vanna ('cos Shirley likes her)
    • Safe passage for CC units home (including Bill? Dunno)
    • Return of all extant CC weapons and ammo ('cos they belong to CC, it's fair)
    • Return of schmucker penalties -- UNLESS Shirley learns that Charlie stole all the GK gems
    • Nullification of existing ceasefire agreement

    Anything else Shirley might decide is "fair"?
    Or is this going to be a total curveball, something completely different? :)
    I was really worried for TV for a few updates. Things are looking up now though, I think! Did I get anything wrong?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 309
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:20 pm 
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    So something interesting I ran across while archive diving: Fashion Maggie will die when Bill does.

    We (or at least I) have been incorrectly assuming that Fashion Maggie's life is tied to Maggie b/c it stole a piece of HER string. But apparently since it was Bill who cast the crude Thinkamancy spell, Fashion Maggie croaks when Bill does. Which is a very real possible outcome of the current Clusterf*ck at the HueHue Portal. (TM)

    Pg 179 - http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/179
    "So, yes. Here was the knotty little string that makes the doll a little bit aware...not really so complicated. Not when it's done so simply and meanly. This Thinkamancy connects it to the Dollamancer because it's his own string, a crude copy of a few parts of his own mind. The golem is still its own unit, but a special one. It thinks that it thinks. It remains special only so long as the Dollamancer lives..."

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 309
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:03 pm 
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    Here's what can be gleaned from the language the temples speak: It is unlimited* language. It conveys emotion, knowledge and authenticity that leaves little to be misunderstood, or even hidden. The tutelaries seem to offer each other full disclosure, and it's yet to be determined whether Parson was OK with his status being revealed, or whether it was a consequence of being connected to the Source by communication.

    * The only human limitation I saw, was the focus of attention. Temple's focus on one topic may avoid transfering knowledge on other topics.

    But, the temples have knowledge beyond what their side is allowed to know. We've seen Jed and Shirley decide to limit what they tell their side... They must be bound by rules about this, which I assume is more on a spirit-of-the-law than letter-of-the-law basis, which may allow them to sometimes reveal tidbits of erf-knowledge when necessary.

    A carnymancer exploits limited language, unintended loopholes and limitations within agreements. How Charlie reacts to this new paradigm may be vitally important. If he doesn't understand the temples and keeps trying his old tricks, then the storyline is headed to an anticlimax. But, I can totally see Charlie getting the hang of dealing with Shirley, adopting his own version of 'playing nice' to counter Gobwin Knob's charm offensive, and becoming all the more dangerous from learning how to feign integrity...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 309
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:26 pm 
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    coineineagh wrote:
    A carnymancer exploits limited language, unintended loopholes and limitations within agreements. How Charlie reacts to this new paradigm may be vitally important. If he doesn't understand the temples and keeps trying his old tricks, then the storyline is headed to an anticlimax. But, I can totally see Charlie getting the hang of dealing with Shirley, adopting his own version of 'playing nice' to counter Gobwin Knob's charm offensive, and becoming all the more dangerous from learning how to feign integrity...


    Ah, and that is the measure of a man*: when you are brought to the point where all of your stratagems and self-delusions fail, can you accept the truth of who you are, learn, and grow? Or will you rail against a world that demands you change - and fail.

    If Charlie does manage to do what you suggest, then I will hate him less, and respect him more.
    You're right: it is an interesting tipping point.

    * i.e. person. Stupid gender-obsessed language.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 309
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:00 pm 
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    kaylasdad99 wrote:
    Sam Nanti wrote:
    alowe wrote:
    "Hsssss. Bphhhffff. Wuhwuhwuhwuhwuh."

    Sounds to me like a modem dialling up.


    If the sound of a tower connecting to the Source to talk to another tower sounds like a dial up modem, does that mean Erfworld is even real? Are we sure it is not some computer simulation of a game that Parson got sucked into?

    Interesting you should bring that up. I began forming the idea a couple of years ago that he might be an unwitting “volunteer” in a Cabin in the Woods-type experiment. Has anyone else noticed a similarity between Parson’s original PLOT! out of his apartment and Jeff Bridges’s ambush-digitization at the hands of the MCP?

    Absolutely!
    https://youtu.be/9WUchPFdIuw?t=13s

    keybounce wrote:
    (I'm referring to the original movie, which I saw multiple, multiple times, but multiple decades ago. There was a time when I could have given you all sorts of details, but now my memory is a little hazy.)

    Old age - when your desktop autotrash becomes more efficient than your baudrate error correction :lol:

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 309
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:56 pm 
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    khamul wrote:
    Hmm. I've re-read the last few updates, and I'm not sure I follow what you're trying to say, here?
    There's no reason to believe Shirley is an incompetent negotiator: you don't tell the other party in a negotiation what your weaknesses are, so she's unlikely to mention it herself, and as we never got to see HueHue's response, the proposition that she'd sacrifice the heir before bending Charlie's demands has not been tested - and given how incomprehensible it must be, to anyone other than Shirley, that that could even be a factor, I doubt it will ever be.


    The point is she gave TV's tower a take it or leave it ultimatum, if there's somthing you really absolutely want that's terrible negotiating tactics because if they call you it makes you look weak. And your right there's no reason to believe that Shirley is a bad negotiator. Which is exactly why i don't think she was bluffing when she made that call.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 309
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:57 pm 
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    neko wrote:
    So something interesting I ran across while archive diving: Fashion Maggie will die when Bill does.

    We (or at least I) have been incorrectly assuming that Fashion Maggie's life is tied to Maggie b/c it stole a piece of HER string. But apparently since it was Bill who cast the crude Thinkamancy spell, Fashion Maggie croaks when Bill does. Which is a very real possible outcome of the current Clusterf*ck at the HueHue Portal. (TM)

    Pg 179 - http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/179
    "So, yes. Here was the knotty little string that makes the doll a little bit aware...not really so complicated. Not when it's done so simply and meanly. This Thinkamancy connects it to the Dollamancer because it's his own string, a crude copy of a few parts of his own mind. The golem is still its own unit, but a special one. It thinks that it thinks. It remains special only so long as the Dollamancer lives..."

    Yes and no. Fashion Maggie wouldn't cease to exist if Bill croaked, but would very likely stop "being special." She would, in theory, revert back to a regular doll, just as the Tin Man and the Scarecrow did after Maxwell croaked.

    I say "in theory" because the Makaleka seems to have surpassed Maxwell's golems. According to the conversation Bunny and Skyy, dolls are unable to learn, but Fashion Maggie learned to write. Hvs.tCF 209

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 309
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:02 pm 
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    coineineagh wrote:
    How Charlie reacts to this new paradigm may be vitally important. If he doesn't understand the temples and keeps trying his old tricks, then the storyline is headed to an anticlimax. But, I can totally see Charlie getting the hang of dealing with Shirley, adopting his own version of 'playing nice' to counter Gobwin Knob's charm offensive, and becoming all the more dangerous from learning how to feign integrity...


    This sounds a bit like Belkar, a while back. He had to learn to put on enough of an act to be more than just a one dimensional character.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 309
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:17 pm 
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    Charlie's signamancy is getting rusty. He demands a reverse of the existing agreement, after demanding a nullification of said agreement. If this were to be accepted like this, technically there would be no existing agreement to be the reverse of, so there would be no agreement at all.

    He also failed to define "near Faq", so that's a wee bit abusable. He also fails when he demands safe passage through Transylvito territory. They could take the newly turned as prisoners, bring them barely out of the territory in the wrong direction, and kill them.

    I addition, as he screwed up the unilateral, they could immediately take the turned units prisoner and demand they turn back. In fact, he also failed to specify "immediately". And after revealing how badly Charlie messed up the contract, the prisoners may be very willing to turn.

    The contract offered is still brutal, though. The relinquishment of Bunny alone likely would make Caesar downright refuse, if he's part of the negotiation.

    Another thing, he's likely to have a tough time with Parson still running about, Gobwin Knob units at the ready.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 309
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:20 pm 
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    keybounce wrote:
    coineineagh wrote:
    How Charlie reacts to this new paradigm may be vitally important. If he doesn't understand the temples and keeps trying his old tricks, then the storyline is headed to an anticlimax. But, I can totally see Charlie getting the hang of dealing with Shirley, adopting his own version of 'playing nice' to counter Gobwin Knob's charm offensive, and becoming all the more dangerous from learning how to feign integrity...


    This sounds a bit like Belkar, a while back. He had to learn to put on enough of an act to be more than just a one dimensional character.

    This one.

    If you pretend long enough, it starts to become real. And Belkar has had some real substantive input since then, not just everyone's favourite murderous psychopath.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 309
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:24 pm 
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    Yes! That one.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 309
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:27 pm 
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    We know that this all has happened because Charlie Loves to Snoop around too much. :p

    Also, you are forgetting that Parson personally has now a HUGE price to pay for "cheating" the system, and I'm sure that all that "extra juice" the characters have got had to be payed at a later date. (which is incidentally how carnymancy works as we have seen faq getting their turn frozen due freezing GK turn previously)

    Also, we are now seeing the seeds of the future maggie's rivals. (bonnie has entered the fray, skyy's the limit also in it, lilith probably will ask dibs the first one due signamancy)

    and I'm still savouring the inflexion point on story in which finally the MK is conquered. :3

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 309
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:43 pm 
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    Coyoteiscrazy wrote:
    Dunno if others caught this. Thought it was interesting:

    Quote:
    “I’m one of the oldest people in the world,” Charlie said.


    I’d imagine that’s a short list. And I’m curious who else is on it.


    - Isaac was a Great Mind when Charlie attuned.
    - Wanda was also there a bit later.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 309
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:46 pm 
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    Delurking just to say I suspect that the Signs the towers speak to each other in are in fact emoji, but other than negation and perhaps justice, I can't come up with matches for the described Signs.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 309
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:06 pm 
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    khamul wrote:
    Ah, and that is the measure of a man*:

    * i.e. person.

    I.e. unit.

    Vendanna wrote:
    Also, you are forgetting that Parson personally has now a HUGE price to pay for "cheating" the system, and I'm sure that all that "extra juice" the characters have got had to be payed at a later date.

    You mean Jed, right? Jed cheated the system and knows that a karmic reaction is due at some point.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 309
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:16 pm 
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    Quote:
    But, I can totally see Charlie getting the hang of dealing with Shirley, adopting his own version of 'playing nice' to counter Gobwin Knob's charm offensive, and becoming all the more dangerous from learning how to feign integrity...


    Charlie is only going to feign integrity to trick Shirley into revealing information on temples. Every action he has taken in his life has been to limit the ways that Fate can finally end his life, from the Deal of a Lifetime, to surrounding himself with fanatically loyal followers and golems only. It would be completely unacceptable to him to continue to be in a situation where something that has a mind of its own could snuff him out in a heartbeat.

    What I suspect will happen: Charlie will start "playing nice" with Shirley, using her to get more information on temples/Erf itself, perhaps even going so far as to try casting on her with Carnymancy. I think he's going to discover a connection between the temples and a side's upkeep, and will attempt to find a way to kill enemy temples, ending the side instantly with no possibility that a new side can be created on the site. It's the scorched earth tactic that he's always wanted to "win" Erfworld. Parson, in beating Charlie, will literally be saving all of Erf.

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