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 Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 142
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:36 am 
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Bandaid wrote:
What I find especially interesting is the fact that Isaac thinks that Maxwell helped Charlie attune. Both Wanda and Stanley needed no help to attune to their respective tools.This further fuels the theories that Charlie is not the "rightful" user of the Arkendish and fits the "Charlie is a cheating bastard" theme. It also would mean that the Titanic atunement plan can be subverted, provided there is one in the first place.


If Fate can be subverted I suppose the "Titanic atunement plan" could be subverted too.

Following this line of thought, we have been told several times about an accord between Haffaton and El-Efbaum to divide the spoils of Bel and Blair´s kingdoms, including the Arkentools. The Wizard received the Arkendish as accorded in those terms, written before Judy was summoned.

Why Charlie asked for the dish? Did he know he will be attuned, maybe with a Prediction or something? Did he know he could force the attunement? How could he know that, if Maxwell was a Haffaton unit then?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 142
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:15 am 
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    Guppy wrote:
    Issac
    easter wrote:
    Issac's

    Really? Again?

    The name is spelled Isaac. Always has been. Always will be. (Since it's a male name, not female, and in our current culture, only female names get stupid cutesy misspellings.)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 142
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:59 am 
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    Anomynous 167 wrote:
    Blagan Hyrede wrote:
    So, wait, the Scarecrow is also a Strawman? Hah!

    I'm getting the impression this is a possible allusion to the Strawman Fallacy, an underhanded debate tactic employed to misrepresent your opponent's position. This is also, at times, employed by trolls as a method of getting a rise out of people.

    You know, I might be impressed by that cleverness if the line "Shame on you, attacking a straw man" wasn't uttered in the film The Wizard of Oz.

    I'd say go ahead and be impressed by that cleverness -- the association of "straw man" with what we today refer to as the "straw man fallacy" didn't exist when Oz came out. Dorothy's admonition you're referencing there was purely straight. (Heck, it may even be the trope namer -- a meaning not intended in the source text, but leveraged by the culture therafter, a la "Jumping the Shark".)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 142
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:36 am 
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    If Charlie cheated the Arkendish, who is it supposed to be attuned to now? :parson:

    Turnamancy what are you tho. So many disparate qualities have made them such shifty casters, I wish we could see more of what their institutions/groups are like. I feel like they could maybe have like an officiating role?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 142
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:49 am 
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    The Lion, seen from behind in Isaac's eyebeam-vision this update, has the Signamancy of Lion-O, the Thundercat.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 142
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:14 pm 
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    Sir Dr D wrote:
    Bandaid wrote:
    Sir Dr D wrote:
    Can someone explain the puns behind A. Dummy , and Jerry Can?


    For Jerry Can, that was an container designed for the german army around 1930.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerrycan

    For A. Dummy I can think of: "a dummy" as in "an idiot"
    or
    crash-test dummy (trying to crash other peoples peace of mind)
    or
    dummy as in decoy


    Thank you. This Jerry Can makes sense now. But I feel there is some other double pun we are missing with A. Dummy



    I think I can shed some light on this. I think this is a reference to Dan Simmons' Hyperion books. In Hyperion, people aren't referred to as "Mr." or "Ms." or anything like that, but rather as M, regardless of gender. E.G. "M. Severn", or "M. Gladstone". This is to indicate "Man" as in "Human." In a previous era, before they were destroyed, there were also androids, and they were referred to as A, regardless of gender. E.G. "A. Bettik" (from Endymion), or...

    A. Dummy. Since he's not unlike an android, being a golem strawman.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 142
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:23 pm 
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    greycat wrote:
    greyknight wrote:
    the Arkenpliers have been a bit of a one-trick pony.

    Well, to be fair, the "trick" that Wanda has been primarily using them for is fucking awesome.

    Also, we know they can do at least a second trick in Wanda's hands -- severing the prisoner string to perform a remote repatriation.

    Ansom, unattuned, used them in combat because "they turn most Uncroaked to dust". http://archives.erfworld.com/Book_1/22

    I think there's good reason to suspect that an Arkentool has a different set of powers depending on whether it's wielded by a Warlord (more like a weapon) or a caster (more like a spell). We don't have insight into consecutive attuned wielders to see this for sure, but what we know is suggestive. Imagine the Arkenhammer "rocking out" in the hands of an actual Rhyme-o-mancer.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 142
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:38 pm 
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    mattlistener wrote:
    Ansom, unattuned, used them in combat because "they turn most Uncroaked to dust". http://archives.erfworld.com/Book_1/22

    I think there's good reason to suspect that an Arkentool has a different set of powers depending on whether it's wielded by a Warlord (more like a weapon) or a caster (more like a spell). We don't have insight into consecutive attuned wielders to see this for sure, but what we know is suggestive. Imagine the Arkenhammer "rocking out" in the hands of an actual Rhyme-o-mancer.


    Ansom, unattuned, used them in the most rudimentary way. He was snipping wires. Anyone can use an Arkentool unattuned, but only in the most rudimentary way. When the tool attunes that person is able to master other aspects of it's use. It's like if you give me a paintbrush I could do very little with it, but if you gave that same brush to Picasso it would be able to create whole worlds.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 142
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:59 pm 
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    Caprice wrote:
    You know, the bit about Judy "declining" after attunement is interesting. It seems like we have two kinds of attunement.
    Wanda and Stanley continued to intensively use their Arkentools for conquest. More than that, they both seem to think they're on some sort of mission - Wanda even explicitly says so.
    On the other hand, Charlie and Judy apparently lost interest in conquering. I wonder if the decline is the result of a "bad" attunement - Charlie because he might have hacked his way in, and Judy because she was an extraterrestrial.

    I wonder if the Arkentools "want" anything. Do they want to be used in battle? Do they want to be passed on from wrong owners to right ones, whatever that means?


    It's pretty safe to assume that Judy, Charlie and Parson are not of Erfworld, but Stupiworld, and Wanda and Stanley are from Erfworld. I don't think the Stupidworlders are bound by the same "impluses" as the Erfworlders. They don't HAVE to conquer. I think that Wanda and Stanley are pretty much doing what their world / class / mindset demand of them with or without a Tool. The Tool just gives them more influence / access to power.

    A slightly off topic question is whether Judy and Charlie have the same hidden stats as Parson. Does this explain why Charlies status of being a Carny is not widely known? (Assuming he really is a Carny...He does seem to have a lot of Thinkamancer and Moneymancer traits as well.) For instance we are not sure if Parson is a Hippiemancer or any type of magic user. Do the Stupidworlders have access to skills / traits /abilities that Erfworlders simply do not?

    JW

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 142
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:22 pm 
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    It occurs to me that Wanda could simply intend to cut the knot here, so to speak. Let Isaac's body die (or even just kill it), then decrypt him. Absolutely no complicated magical tricks involved (beyond the Arkenpliers serving their main purpose.) It seems weird that this solution hasn't occurred to Isaac himself. Obviously this requires that she has the pliers, but she'd be certain she'll get those.

    mattlistener wrote:
    The Lion, seen from behind in Isaac's eyebeam-vision this update, has the Signamancy of Lion-O, the Thundercat.
    I believe we've already seen that elsewhere, although I can't recall where.


    Last edited by Aquillion on Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 142
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:37 pm 
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    Aquillion wrote:
    mattlistener wrote:
    The Lion, seen from behind in Isaac's eyebeam-vision this update, has the Signamancy of Lion-O, the Thundercat.
    I believe we've already seen that elsewhere, although I can't recall where.

    That would be Page 279.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 142
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:21 pm 
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    Jenn_Eris wrote:

    It's pretty safe to assume that Judy, Charlie and Parson are not of Erfworld, but Stupiworld, and Wanda and Stanley are from Erfworld.

    JW


    Charlie maybe. Judy ? It's a popular idea but she's Erfworld human sized and proportioned. If she was from Stupidworld like Parson, it stands to reason her stats would be invisible like Parson's, but it's never remarked on by the Erfworlders who see her, while it stood out drastically and was commented on immediately by Stanley the first time he saw Parson. On the other hand, Judy does say "kill" "year" and "boop" I think maybe Judy's not from Erfworld, but not from Stupidworld either, at least not the one that Parson is from.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 142
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:55 pm 
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    mattlistener wrote:
    I'd say go ahead and be impressed by that cleverness -- the association of "straw man" with what we today refer to as the "straw man fallacy" didn't exist when Oz came out. Dorothy's admonition you're referencing there was purely straight. (Heck, it may even be the trope namer -- a meaning not intended in the source text, but leveraged by the culture therafter, a la "Jumping the Shark".)
    Ummm....

    I mean, how would it even come to be a usage after scarecrows had ceased to be a common element of life experience among the educated class? That just doesn't make sense.
    Jenn_Eris wrote:
    It's pretty safe to assume that Judy, Charlie and Parson are not of Erfworld, but Stupiworld, and Wanda and Stanley are from Erfworld.
    If by "safe" you mean "not likely to be physically dangerous", then yes. Pretty much any assumption we can make about Erfworld is safe in that sense.
    Jenn_Eris wrote:
    I don't think the Stupidworlders are bound by the same "impluses" as the Erfworlders. They don't HAVE to conquer. I think that Wanda and Stanley are pretty much doing what their world / class / mindset demand of them with or without a Tool. The Tool just gives them more influence / access to power.
    Many (but not all) casters also lack any definite will to conquest. Warlords have that because it's their job, but even among warlords we've seen a huge variation. Compare Vinny and Jillian. Jillian...well, enough said. Vinny? Not so much.
    Jenn_Eris wrote:
    A slightly off topic question is whether Judy and Charlie have the same hidden stats as Parson.
    Do you mean non-visibility of normally visible stats? There is no evidence either way, for either Judy or Charlie. There are scenes in which Erfworld commander units (normally able to see stats) can see Judy, but no comment appears about her stats (or lack of same). We have no recorded instances of Charlie being directly visible to a commander unit of any side.
    Jenn_Eris wrote:
    Does this explain why Charlies status of being a Carny is not widely known?
    The particular discipline of a caster is not a visible stat. Thus whether or not Charlie had ever been seen by a commander unit, it would have no bearing on whether anyone knew his casting discipline.
    Jenn_Eris wrote:
    (Assuming he really is a Carny...He does seem to have a lot of Thinkamancer and Moneymancer traits as well.)
    No assumption necessary, the ability to function as a Thinkamancer is a function of the 'dish, and we know that Charlie is NOT a Moneymancer or he would have protected his treasury against contract violations, in the manner that Parson has now employed. We also are informed of Charlie's discipline as part of the recounting of Haffaton's history at the trial of Olive Branch. This is in addition to other evidence too ample to list here.
    Jenn_Eris wrote:
    For instance we are not sure if Parson is a Hippiemancer or any type of magic user. Do the Stupidworlders have access to skills / traits /abilities that Erfworlders simply do not?
    Parson does. We don't know that Judy or Charlie do (aside from the powers which are clearly functions of their respective 'tools), nor do we know that they are Stupidworlders. Parson also remains uncertain on this point, leaning towards rejecting the hypothesis in the case of Judy.

    I think that Parson's reasoning in the case of Judy assigns too much weight to the idea that there must be a fixed correspondence between time in Erfworld and in Stupidworld. But the fact remains that Parson, who could die from being wrong about it, does not regard it as safe to assume that Judy, Charlie are from Stupidworld. I tend to agree that it would be highly dangerous for him to work from that assumption.

    Still perfectly safe for us, though. We're in no danger at all from such an assumption.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 142
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:46 am 
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    Aside from Wanda tricks… what if Isaac reads Parson's scroll? Seems reasonable to suppose that that would stick him back in his body… and perhaps without the rest of every other GM stuck in him.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 142
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:53 pm 
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    Honeybadgertattoo wrote:
    ugh, that jester grin was so creepy, I had nightmares that night >_<


    It's a trollface.

    Image

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 142
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:07 pm 
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    Jenn_Eris wrote:
    A slightly off topic question is whether Judy and Charlie have the same hidden stats as Parson. Does this explain why Charlies status of being a Carny is not widely known? (Assuming he really is a Carny...He does seem to have a lot of Thinkamancer and Moneymancer traits as well.) For instance we are not sure if Parson is a Hippiemancer or any type of magic user. Do the Stupidworlders have access to skills / traits /abilities that Erfworlders simply do not?

    JW


    It isn't a matter of having unique abilities. It's a matter of being built using a completely different system, for play in a completely different game.
    Erfworld and Stupidworld have completely different mechanics, completely different rules. Porting characters from one ruleset to the other requires a massive, massive adaptations.

    Porting a Stupidworlder to Erfworld is like trying to play Warhammer with you D&D character. They're not even the same genre of game.

    Parson's abilities seem to come from the fact that he's still fundamentally a character built in a classless, leveless skill based system with learn-by-doing mechanics. There are just Erfworld mechanics glued onto him by the summon perfect warlord spell, but it's not a perfect interface.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 142
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:49 pm 
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    Merilynne wrote:
    Honeybadgertattoo wrote:
    ugh, that jester grin was so creepy, I had nightmares that night >_<


    It was worth your sacrifice, Lillian. :)

    Is that somehow a Twig reference, or what?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 142
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:53 pm 
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    BeautifulAardvark wrote:
    Honeybadgertattoo wrote:
    ugh, that jester grin was so creepy, I had nightmares that night >_<
    It's a trollface.

    Which should give any sane person nightmares.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 142
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:54 pm 
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    Arci wrote:
    Does anybody else get a vibe of the thinkamancers just being a bit too paranoid here?

    That sounds like Bad thinking, friend. Please report to your nearest pineapple for re-education. :think:

    Chiu ChunLing wrote:
    Well, we called it that in the first place because Deiform didn't really seem like Isaac even though it was wearing his body. Deiform's still wearing his body, and presumably seems just a little less like Isaac.

    Well, I disagreed with all of that at the time too, and now even more so. I don't associate people's names with their original bodies; if the person inhabits another body, then I associate their name with that new body instead.

    WarFAN wrote:
    Bel and Blair´s kingdoms

    Someday, their secret heir will rise again from barbarian-hood to reclaim his kingdom and sit on his throne as the Fresh Prince.

    Jenn_Eris wrote:
    It's pretty safe to assume that Judy, Charlie and Parson are not of Erfworld, but Stupiworld, and Wanda and Stanley are from Erfworld.

    Parson believed Judy was from some other universe (which I call "Judyworld" for reasons which are hopefully obvious). We've seen mountains of evidence that Charlie was a fairly normal Erfworlder whose weirdness comes from a combination of Flower Power trips and observing other universes through the Arkendish. The existence of multiple other universes — some of them containing Stupidworld fictions like Willy Wonka — also lends credence to the existence of Judyworld.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 142
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:11 pm 
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    hyzmarca wrote:
    Porting a Stupidworlder to Erfworld is like trying to play Warhammer with you D&D character. They're not even the same genre of game.
    True, but it's not that hard to do a conversion. It's easier than doing a character from scratch, as long as you have a baseline and outlier parameters.
    greyknight wrote:
    I don't associate people's names with their original bodies; if the person inhabits another body, then I associate their name with that new body instead.
    Sure, we call the new body Isaac's binding. But referring to the former body of a departed person by the name of that person is a long-standing custom that is also fairly convenient. And Erfworlders do it too.

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