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 Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:28 pm 
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A few things of note.

The doll, currently resembling the main character from "The Binding of Isaac" does not specifically match any specific character from said game. It does however look like what that main character probably would look like if it were an etsy.

That being said, there are a few niggling things that may or may not have been said before.

First, we got the Dirtamancer's prediction that Deiform would be destroyed at the beginning of the next turn (beginning of Deiform's next turn?) BEFORE Claud started "weaving the strings" into something tangible. It is entirely possible that that prediction is now currently moot.

It also occurs to me that the signamancy of the "cloth" so woven looked a lot like Charlescom itself. At least to me, anwyay.

And now Deiform has taken The Wrench while telling Wanda that "you must not cheat".

I don't know, I really don't know, but I'm getting a lot of bad vibes from this right now. Charlie's last set of eyes down below has been blown (or I presume it has been blown from the fact that it is now transformed... though just what it has been transformed into I cannot say).

In fact, let's take a moment to step back and discuss this signamancy. Now, I have never played The Binding of Isaac, but I do know enough to help people with the basics.

WARNING, MAJOR RELIGIOUS SYMBOLISM AND REFERENCES AHEAD, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

TBoI is a small game about a kid named Isaac whose mother watches a lot of Christian television. One day, she gets a message from God to sacrifice her son. While attempting to do so, Isaac escapes down a hatch in the floor and enters... well, the beginning of the game. During the game, Isaac's main weapon (only weapon?) is/are his tears, a ranged weapon that can be improved upon by collecting powerups and defeating challenges.

Looking deeper into the story (for further references, watch Game Theroy's take on it) it appears that the whole "mom getting a message from God" story is actually fairly false, and it is Isaac himself who has made up a lot of these things. This is apparent from the medium through which the story is told (through Isaac's own pictures) and also through the absurdity of both having an escape hatch in his own room, and what he finds on the other side. A side note, the absurdity isn't as absurd if he enters Erfworld through the hatch, where crapgolems could explain some of the enemies he finds down there.

It appears that much of the game of TBoI is simply him imaging up a story and coming to grips with the evil within himself. TBoI demonizes, but doesn't deconstruct, several Christian religious symbols, always siding with several sinners, Magdalene, Cain, Judas, Sampson, etc. This is a kind of reaction that I see a lot of "former Christians" having, a belief that Christianity is about condemning sinners rather than about accepting one's own sins as being wrong and striving to repent and become clean, which is what my religion believes.

Looking back myself I find a few paralells with TBoI and the current story. For Clarification purposes, when I say "Isaac" I'm referring to the game character, if I want Erfworld's Isaac, I'm using the word Deiform.
-Charlie and Isaac's mother share similar signamancy, both are fat and share at best a similar relationship with each other.
-Isaac begins the game in a dungeon... and things get worse. Meanwhile, The Doll has just begun a new life... in a dungeon, with a promise that things are about to get worse.

And that's about it, as far as I can reach, it's late and I'm tired and we'll see what the rest of the forum things.

It's going to be hard for me, waiting for things to pick up again. I've felt for a while that I'd like to see more updates, even updates that were more about "the inspiration of" or weren't even Erf at all! Anyway, it'll be hard for me because I've got one comic going on Hiatus until August, Erfworld is basically AWOL for a couple months, and another I've been picking up almost every day that's now basically on hiatus for a bit... assuming the author does indeed go ahead and do the "stinger" chapter, since he's already finished with pretty much the whole story he set out to make.

And on top of all that, it looks like Freefall is also winding down!

THE WORLD OF WEBCOMICS IS COMING TO AN END!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:34 pm 
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    And now to wait until September to find out what this means.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:36 pm 
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    Caprice wrote:
    Tanonx wrote:
    But given the reference to The Binding of Isaac, is it possible Isaac just got singled out and shoved into that doll?

    The name itself certainly doesn't bode well for him. He's been at odds with the Minds in the past

    I didn't get the impression that Isaac was ever that far removed from the mainstream of the Minds, to the point that they'd all unite against him. From what we saw in the "Thinkamancers' Poll" back at the beginning of book 3, his opinions are strong, but not completely out of step with the other Minds.


    Still, earlier lines do allude to some dissent within the Minds of Big Think. The Minds never had a lot of room for anyone who didn't Think Alike. Someone broached a Solved bubble, in a way that displeased the others greatly. And Isaac has been shown to entertain dangerously different ideas, perhaps more than anyone else in the set. Usually, he'd do so privately, but there's no room for privacy in the Think.

    Working from that, Isaac is simply the most likely candidate for what looks like the most likely scenario, to me at least. The Signamancy helps that.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:51 pm 
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    Arci wrote:
    A few things of note.

    The doll, currently resembling the main character from "The Binding of Isaac" does not specifically match any specific character from said game. It does however look like what that main character probably would look like if it were an etsy.

    I don't know what you mean by "does not specifically match." The doll looks identical to the starting character, in yarn form.

    I've logged 3439 hours in the original BoI, and 4117 in the remake. It's a good game to play while I watch youtube and netflix.

    Other than the opening introduction, there is no narration in the game. The entire story is told through wordless animations, which leaves a lot open to interpretation. The branching story lines further obfuscate things. The "true" story may be that the entire game is a delusion that he goes through as he suffocates to death inside of his toy chest. Or it could be a metaphor related to transgenderism. The game is intentionally vague.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:06 am 
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    Guys, he's still linked with them, he's just walking around with their abilities at the same time though.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:10 am 
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    braininthejar wrote:
    Umm... what the frisbee has just happened?

    Making us wait three months to find out is just trolling...


    Indeed.

    Look, this doesn't get close to some of the epic reader-trolling that Tom Siddell of Gunnerkrigg Court has pulled off (two words: "The Breakout". Gunnerkrigg readers will know what I mean), but it at least gets Rob Balder into the conversation for great trolling by webcomic writers.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:14 am 
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    I'm going to blame the heavy amounts of pain meds I'm on right now, but i have no idea what just happened, other than the action figure getting encased in stuff

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:22 am 
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    Big Think's acts, words and signamancy apparently have been giving me a certain cumulative impression for some time now. Because reading that
    No one in particular wrote:
    Verwandlung translates to transformation (or metamorphosis)

    immediately made me think of Andrei passionately describing how he loves his Clan's signature discipline, and then seeing
    Caprice wrote:
    I really hope this doesn't mean Isaac is taking all the "cheats" (Wonky Wrench, pilfered juice, and corpses created via remote string cutting) with him and going home.

    coupled with the doll's face conjured up the image of Dr. Weir dreamily talking about his new home.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:41 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    I know that in a previous update, Isaac of TBoI appeared as a background character in the magic kingdom, popping out from behind a portal while crying. But now I can't find him. I wonder if he got retconjured away? Be weird if he did, because the Red Spy didn't get retconjured when the action figure took on CC signamancy.


    It was in the "Jack's Reverie" text update:
    https://wiki.erfworld.com/Hvs.tCF_119

    I've been using that panel as a wallpaper ever since the page was posted.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:44 am 
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    Think back to the last update; It had them creating a golem while the golem was simultaneously drawing out their string as a parody of the 'hands drawing hands' image, the difference of course being that they are not both creating each other but one is creating and the other is taking.

    Combine this with three things:
    - Issac has left the link behind, something that shouldn't be possible as the source
    - The doll was transformed into Issac from the binding of Issac
    - The first words 'this dear little mother has sharp claws'

    I think making the pillar golem didn't transform the immutable pillar into something else as would have happened with a different material, it simply turned them into it. The consciousnesses are still there but compared to infinite juice golem they are but a trifle to be pushed out.
    So it did, she did. She took Issac's body and shoved the gesalt consciousness into the doll, aka bound issac to the doll.
    It is now going about its business.

    What is that business? We'll have to wait to find out.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:47 am 
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    ... The Star Child terrifies me. No matter what you wanna call it, it freaking terrifies me.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:48 am 
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    Okay, I haven't caught up with the thread, but given the Binding of Isaac signamancy on the doll, does that mean the doll is being sent on a run through Charlescomm, attacking everything in the city room by room? I mean, how else can you interpret that?

    From a signamancy threat-level standpoint, I can't imagine much that would be more terrifying than those eyes, except maybe for Super Meat Boy.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:00 am 
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    million zillion wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    I know that in a previous update, Isaac of TBoI appeared as a background character in the magic kingdom, popping out from behind a portal while crying. But now I can't find him. I wonder if he got retconjured away? Be weird if he did, because the Red Spy didn't get retconjured when the action figure took on CC signamancy.


    It was in the "Jack's Reverie" text update:
    https://wiki.erfworld.com/Hvs.tCF_119

    I've been using that panel as a wallpaper ever since the page was posted.

    Thank you! Not hard to see why I had trouble finding it again. Anyway, it's interesting that this is at least twice now that an incidental background character has been reused in a more prominent way later on. Also funny coincidence that's the same doll both times.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:46 am 
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    [quote="joosy"]Verwandlug is German for transformation.

    Given the field of Kafka references, it is perhaps better to translate it is Metamorphosis.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:00 am 
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    1. He's leaving with Dirtamancer and Dollamancer abilities.
    2. He's leaving with the Wonky Wrench.
    3. He can use the Wonky Wrench.
    4. The Wonky Wrench can remove the brace on portals to let troops through.
    5. With Dirtamancer powers, he can dig new tunnels.

    My prediction: he's headed to TV and/or GW(can we call it GW anymore?) portals to rig the portals.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:06 am 
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    A very good range of theories in the thread.

    My thoughts... or rather questions.

    1. Is the link with Claud and Ivan really still "on", or did Big Think dump them out lobotomized. It was kinda alluded on pg.267 (soon to be book4-pg.126) that Ivan would not survive the trance-fusion. So was Claud's hesistance and Big Think answering about not being afraid to die.

    My take is that was probably second option.

    2. What exactly Isaac means as "dear mother" in the first frame? As it was mentioned, the original Kafka quote was about motherland, in particular city of Prague. One of the ideas was them talking about Fate.

    My take (not very certain, though), is him meaning the new awoken entity of the Comm Tower. And it's either GLaDOS, SHODAN, or... Mom from Binding of Isaac weirdly?

    3. What did they exactly change in the doll? Is it still a CC unit, or did it become barbarian? Changed type to etsie with no move?

    My take is probably still CC, but an etsie.

    4. Why did Big Think leave everyone behind? Or rather, where are they going with all the cheats?

    Wanda is pretty much screwed right now. No means of transportation, will have to do a long walk; Wonky Wrench was taken away, so even if she'll be able to "restore" Ivan, no getting out from the tunnels outside of going to the Dirtamansion hole, and no busting the collar of Spacerock's portal.

    Maybe Big Think is even going to go plug that bedrock hole under Dirtamansion. The answer to the first question is probably "they don't Arkin' care". And Big Think definitely retains all the dirtamancy and dollamancy knowledge and skillset from the state 8.2.

    Quote:
    4. The Wonky Wrench can remove the brace on portals to let troops through.

    Removing the collars is only projecting the portal shards. "Jigging" the portal to let troops through is a separate action on the column, but it is perfomable using the Wonky Wrench and Ivan's knowledge, yes.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:28 am 
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    If Claude and Ivan are the erf equivalent of brain dead, will they be repaired during start of turn healing or would that count as critical incapacitation?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:39 am 
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    The only thing that seems even vaguely clear here is that Isaac is still (sorta) communicating in Kafka quotes and has decided to forfeit the honor of killing Charlie (to Parson, most likely).

    My suspicion is that Claud and Ivan are in some kind of standby state to use later. They don't have the appearance of suffering link-lash, but they clearly haven't been properly released. Keeping in mind that the GMTTA had already decided that allowing Wanda to perish was preferable to permitting her to continue using the 'pliers, I have doubts that Deiform is going to do the most sensible thing to bolster the threat GK can pose to CC (crack the Spacerock portal so Wanda can hook up with the 'pliers). It really seems equally likely that he's taking the Wonky Wrench etc. somewhere for destruction (along with himself, perhaps), leaving Wanda to her Fate (whatever that is at this point, I don't believe the GMTTA really know).

    I suspect that the Doll has been transformed in a manner that will make it a mental trap for Charlie, should he attempt to connect to it again. The reference to a mother having sharp claws and the fact that the Doll (with its new Signamancy) is on the 'adventure' side of the portal are suggestive, as is the reference to The Metamorphosis. No idea whether the portal awakening was carried out, it would make sense for Deiform to have prevented it, but it is possible that made the entity to which Isaac is referring as "this dear little mother". The portal may well have been uncarnied as a result, making it impassible to attacks and non-caster units again (explaining the reference to sharp claws).

    But it would also work for the portal to be taking directives from Charlie, and the Binding of Isaac doll to be Isaac now. That doesn't seem likely to me, but it has interesting elements. Certainly the reference is to a heavily Gnostic interpretation of religion, centered on one of the key evidences that the Creator must be morally incoherent (a theme which runs through Erfworld as well). But (as fairly usual for Erfworld) this application would subvert the implicit message, since Charlie has been presented as a Satanic (or Satanist) figure in many ways, rather than a representative of the Creator.

    To be fair, I'm anti-gnostic. I conceive (or even define) the universe to exist prior to any gods, and to be utterly devoid of "morality". There cannot (by definition) be anything outside the universe, and everything within the universe must subordinate its own desires for 'good' to what the universe (with an absolute and immeasurable contempt for all such desires) will allow. This is the source of the moral incoherence of a world in which there are some things which we think good but also full of things we think bad...whether or not there were any significant gods prerequisite to the rise of human genius. But it's rather a boring and commonplace view, more popular with those who work with their hands to solve concrete problems than with the bulk of those with aspirations to be considered philosophers. To some degree this is because it demotes philosophy (and all 'higher' aspirations) to mere personal preferences of various beings which can only exist subject to laws which were never intended to make any sense (since to not be subject to the incoherent demands of the universe is to not exist).

    To be anti-gnostic is to be incapable of seeing any contradiction between viewing the aspiration towards moral coherence (on which all stories are necessarily based) as both ridiculous and preferable. But it is also to find Gnosticism an answer to a "question" that can't reasonably be considered to have meaning in the first place.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:34 am 
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    Caprice wrote:
    I really hope this doesn't mean Isaac is taking all the "cheats" (Wonky Wrench, pilfered juice, and corpses created via remote string cutting) with him and going home.


    However, he is not taking the rifle with him.

    I am waiting for Wanda to do a headshot from behind.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:44 am 
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    So Wanda is not even going to object to Big Think taking Tondy along for the ride?

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