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 Post Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:12 pm 
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DeaconBlues, the text updates have graduated from optional to not-optional as of around the beginning of book 3. Sorry to hear they give you so much trouble.

Heffenfeffer wrote:
MostTornBrain wrote:
Oh wow! They are! I wonder if we can do any story foreshadowing by digging up other Kafka quotes...


I've got you covered.



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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 271
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:13 pm 
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    greyknight wrote:
    Glenn wrote:
    The real question is, who is the big bad of the whole Erfworld narrative?

    Yellow dwagon #5.

    Mark my words.


    Yellow #5 causes cancew.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 271
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 8:30 pm 
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    Turtlewing wrote:
    Chiu ChunLing wrote:
    There have been extensive explorations of how 'intent' factors into whether something counts as a contract violation. None of them are really satisfactory in the end, given Charlie's ability to hand Jillian money and rifles for no imaginable purpose other than to attack GK (Claud's trick with the pitch golem was way better than that, even if still transparent).


    The difference is that Jillian intended to attack GK regardless of Charlie's opinion on the matter.
    That gave Carlie the room to maneuver as he never took an action that directly violated the treaty, nor exercised any control over who Jillian attacks with her army. Thus FAQ is not acting as an agent of CC when they attack GK. (ie, Jillian's intent also matters, and she wasn't doing it for Charlie).

    By contrast Claud's orders to the Tar baby caused the CC action figure to become incapacitated by a GK aligned tar trap. Claud intended to incapacitate the action figure with that set of orders so it very cleanly is a matter of an intentional attack even though he routed the attack though a disband order instead of an attack order.

    Claud might have gotten away with it if he'd somehow managed to get a neutral side to own and disband the tar baby for their own untreated to GK reasons rather than ordering it himself as then it wouldn't have been a GK trap that incapacitated the action figure. But that wasn't possible in context.


    I do agree with you, but there's one question that I could never answer to my satisfaction: why did Charlie have to be so circumspect about giving Jillian the rifles? He could have just handed them over with the words "these will aid you greatly if FAQ is ever attacked." That still wouldn't have made her an agent of Charlescom any more than giving her financial aid to build up a military or than providing a Turnamancer to get her heir popped sooner. I just never understood the need for this secrecy.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 271
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:17 pm 
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    Morgaln wrote:
    I do agree with you, but there's one question that I could never answer to my satisfaction: why did Charlie have to be so circumspect about giving Jillian the rifles? He could have just handed them over with the words "these will aid you greatly if FAQ is ever attacked." That still wouldn't have made her an agent of Charlescom any more than giving her financial aid to build up a military or than providing a Turnamancer to get her heir popped sooner. I just never understood the need for this secrecy.

    He wanted the rifles back after, obvious that the intent of Charlie was to help the attack rather than defend FAQ. He was weaselling around his intent by not actually giving them.

    Charlie has probably done lots of research using small contracts to determine how to cheat natural signomancy. The dish also gives him an intuition that is somewhat similar to predictomancy.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 271
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:55 pm 
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    GreySage wrote:
    Actually, there has been a long-standing precedent that marginally (or even completely) obscure side characters get an update devoted almost entirely to them right before/as they die.

    See: Tondy, Duncan, Artemis, that one random stabber who did something I don't remember in the Battle for Spacerock, Queen Bea, and probably others.
    Spearman Wrigley. Wrigley got updates before both deaths, actually. There was also Phoebe the archon and those Sagittari archers on the walls of Spacerock (don't actually know they died, though, if they were on the outer walls they should have been able to evacuate). I suspect that Tondy is going to be fairly plot crucial, the back and forth about trying to ensure that Wanda doesn't decrypt a Fox Force archon has been built up quite a bit already. I think she doesn't turn without as much work/opportunity as Ossomer, though. And I wonder if Wanda is going to make that particular mistake in such an obvious case.
    Sonic Screwdriver wrote:
    Unless I missed it, but did anyone else feel mildly jarred by the use of the word 'slay' instead of 'croak' out of Claude?
    Archaisms are pretty safe (and fantasy friendly). "Croak" is actually harsher. I didn't find it any more troubling than the references to chamberpots ("Magic item? You wish." hehehe).
    Turtlewing wrote:
    The difference is that Jillian intended to attack GK regardless of Charlie's opinion on the matter.
    And pitch flows downward once it's no longer magically animated to remain part of a golem. I really fail to see the relevant difference here.

    Jillian is a means. Charlie intentionally used her as such. Yes, I get that Charlie's trick worked and Claud's didn't, but I'm much more comfortable with "Carnymancy" as an explanation of that than appeals to any sort of rational interpretation of the difference.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 271
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:45 pm 
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Year of the Dwagon Supporter Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter
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    silverplated wrote:
    Have you missed an update? The Big Think confirmed that it would snuff out at end of turn by lack of a body. It confirmed that Ivan would snuff out along with it. To the reader, it's perfectly clear. To Wanda, who is otherwise very protective of her units, it's not perfectly ordinary to have them mindcontrolled by others.

    Besides, Claud pretty much implies that joining the link is fatal. So they know. Why is Wanda so happy to sacrificer her units (skilled casters with critical information, no less), disobey orders, and get away from the pliers on the say-so of deus ex machina? At best she should begrudgingly agree now that she hasn't got another choice to get out of these tunnels.

    Have you forgotten the arkenpliers? Wanda was able to repair Lilith with them, why shouldn't she be able to cut her casters out safely once she's recovered her arkentool? As for Isaac's reported doom™, that was before he learned of the infinite juice scenario presented by the portals.

    Well, perhaps because the alternative is rotting in the bedrock for the rest of her life, (that being until Charlie swarms her with archons)? Not that there's any particular reason to suppose she's expecting them to die, or indeed, that she's particularly happy about allying with Isaac. There's also the little fact that her orders are coming from a proven incompetent, who's plotting to commit more war crimes and has completely lost control of events.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:38 pm 
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    drachefly wrote:
    Heffenfeffer wrote:
    MostTornBrain wrote:
    Oh wow! They are! I wonder if we can do any story foreshadowing by digging up other Kafka quotes...


    I've got you covered.



    Son of a Submariner!

    Clearly this quote indicates that at some point Charlie will burrow underground.

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     Post Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 1:48 am 
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    drachefly wrote:
    DeaconBlues, the text updates have graduated from optional to not-optional as of around the beginning of book 3. Sorry to hear they give you so much trouble.

    Probably why I'm going to have to stop reading this webcomic. I'd like to know how it turns out, but it's just so damned confusing having to go and read part of a novel just to track what's going on.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 271
     Post Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:23 am 
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    I'd have to say that while the story remains pretty confusing if you don't read the text updates, this has been true since at least Book 1 unless you don't count Klogs as text updates. And I have no idea how you could make the transition from Book 1 to Book 2 without reading a good portion of the text updates.

    But yeah, there's a certain amount of complexity that has to be left unexplored if you stick strictly to the comic format of only spoken character dialogue and visually represented action. But that's true even when there are no text updates, the difference isn't that you somehow understand the complexity but that nobody else does either.

    So the difference is that other people on the forum are getting stuff you're not...but if reading is such a hassle then how is that even a problem? I mean, how are you even reading these huge forum discussions? I guess since these are actual text (rather than text embedded in an image) you could be using an accessibility tool to read them for you...urk, I don't even want to imagine.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 271
     Post Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:38 am 
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    I swear I can remember it being said by someone that they could briefly take control of an enemy doll, but that it would take most of their juice. I don't remember if it was a Thinker or Doller who said it. But if I'm remembering this correctly, then another exploit with the infinite juice would be to take control of the Action Figure, and either have it attack GK units for single points of damage, or use it to free the prisoners.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 271
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:00 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    I swear I can remember it being said by someone that they could briefly take control of an enemy doll, but that it would take most of their juice. I don't remember if it was a Thinker or Doller who said it. But if I'm remembering this correctly, then another exploit with the infinite juice would be to take control of the Action Figure, and either have it attack GK units for single points of damage, or use it to free the prisoners.


    It was a thinkamancer giving orders to a doll, probably using a ton of juice (maggie perhaps) we have already seen that thinkamancers can give suggestions (to stanley) but I suppose that it costs WAY more to do that with an enemy unit.

    probably is far easier to do it with foolamancy, abuse the "while not lead" and lure them out with fake rare pepes. :3

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 271
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:32 pm 
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    Vendanna wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    I swear I can remember it being said by someone that they could briefly take control of an enemy doll, but that it would take most of their juice. I don't remember if it was a Thinker or Doller who said it. But if I'm remembering this correctly, then another exploit with the infinite juice would be to take control of the Action Figure, and either have it attack GK units for single points of damage, or use it to free the prisoners.


    It was a thinkamancer giving orders to a doll, probably using a ton of juice (maggie perhaps) we have already seen that thinkamancers can give suggestions (to stanley) but I suppose that it costs WAY more to do that with an enemy unit.
    Page 178 wrote:
    Either that, or Maggie was controlling it. But that bordered on the impossible. The kinds of strands it would take to impose her will on it were not in place, and prisoner casters have no juice. Even the simple natural Thinkamancy of giving an order remotely takes a drop of juice. Taking control of an enemy golem was the kind of secret spell that costs a whole turn's worth, for a few seconds of action at best.
    We can presume Bunny to have unusual expertise on the interaction of Thinkamancy and golems, though perhaps not anything beyond what the GMTTA would have known.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 271
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:38 pm 
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    Why do they not kill Charlie's spy doll now?
    I mean have Big Think kill it, who is not allied to GK and so no penalty?
    Is there a secret reason?

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