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 Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 117
 Post Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 12:47 am 
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Delta Grey wrote:
Well, that seemed unnecessary to me.

I'm also a bit confused, both by the fact that is not the same FAQ that Marie is pledging loyalty to, and also, wasn't there a loyalty or duty stat at some point?

Marie predicted that FAQ would fall then arise again with Jill as queen. This is all making her prediction come true.

It may get funny, Charlie cheated by messing with Jills mind, so Marie may cheat back as she says by shooting Jill in head as soon as Wanda is ready with pliers.


Last edited by multilis on Sat May 20, 2017 12:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 117
     Post Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 12:48 am 
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    This might explain what Philip is doing. Some of the Predictamancers may genuinely be worried about this.

    Even if Jillian buys Marie's words about what Charlie did, there is no way in Hellabad she'll ally with any side that has Stanley on it, and the Fate severing will remove any of Fate's ability to compel that. So will she remain Charlie's pawn, or create a 3rd superpower?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 117
     Post Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 12:48 am 
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    Something here doesn't make sense:

    If Wanda was Fated to serve Jillian, why did she refuse to turn when given the chance in Book 2? We know how she feels about the easy way vs. the hard way.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 117
     Post Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 12:50 am 
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    Sir Dr D wrote:
    - I think Ace who is loyal to neight Wanda or GK, would choose jetstone.
    Disagree. Ace is loyal to Parson, who lets him stretch his potential and explore new ideas. He doesn't have any particular loyalty to Jetstone now that we can see.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 117
     Post Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 12:51 am 
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    ManaCaster wrote:
    Even if Jillian buys Marie's words about what Charlie did, there is no way in Hellabad she'll ally with any side that has Stanley on it

    Decrypted Jill may ally with Stanley if Wanda wants to. Her son may be her king and it may be his choice. Charlie cheated by messing with Jill's mind, Marie likes to cheat back.

    Could get funnier with Ansom trying to get back romance with Jill but decrypted Jill obsessed with Wanda.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 117
     Post Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 12:57 am 
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    I haven't noticed anyone else mention this, but if Marie's plan works, and Duncan is decrypted, then Vanna, who doesn't believe decrypted are real people, is in the position of loving a decrypted person. That could go a couple of directions. Either she pulls an about face on her position, or she doubles down with vengeance.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 117
     Post Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 1:01 am 
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    myeerah wrote:
    then Vanna, who doesn't believe decrypted are real people, is in the position of loving a decrypted person

    Duncan may love Vanna but not clear Vanna loves Duncan. Vanna uses seduction as a tool, just like Olive Branch of Book 0 fame. (Olive's kiss of death on Wanda's brother).

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 117
     Post Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 1:05 am 
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    Aquillion wrote:
    Something here doesn't make sense:

    If Wanda was Fated to serve Jillian, why did she refuse to turn when given the chance in Book 2? We know how she feels about the easy way vs. the hard way.


    Because Wanda is not a predictamancer. She knows that she is fated to bring about the union of the arkentools, but not that she is fated to serve Jillian.
    At that moment, serving under the Perfect warlord seemed to be easier than fighting against him.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 117
     Post Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 1:08 am 
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    Vanna's probably going to end up fulfilling her little prophecy about herself and Bill getting killed and then decrypted...if Wanda decides she really needs another Dollamancer all that badly (but I'm pretty sure she'll find a pretty Turnamancer useful).

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 117
     Post Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 1:15 am 
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    Here at last is the update where Jillian Sue ascends to become The Wesley, Creator's Pet in full with all the even more gratuitous rights and outrageous Plot Armor attaining thereto.

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CreatorsPet

    Sigh.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 117
     Post Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 1:19 am 
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    Okay. Huge long shot here, but I can dream.

    What if, as some people are predicting, Marie kills Jillian when Wanda is a position to decrypt her free from the deal of a lifetime... but the decrypted loyalty to Wanda somehow results -- immediately or after some time -- in Wanda becoming the actual overlord?

    She was popped an overlord's daughter, and for a hot minute, she was an overlord. We've seen her lead. She's got more dogs in Erfworld's most important fights than almost anyone else in the setting.
    And she's not Jillian.

    I like so much about this idea. And I dislike so much about the idea of Wanda serving under Jillian.

    I can dream.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 117
     Post Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 1:27 am 
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    oslecamo2 temp wrote:
    Alas, it ignores that the Queen of Faq is a bloodthirsty psychopath that constantly screws her allies. Fate may be evil, but the Queen of FAQ isn't any better, only caring about herself and willing to sacrifice others left, right and center just to satisfy her situational whims.


    I did some clicking after the second link, and ended up with http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+2/81... this reminded me of CinemaSins.

    "Let's show her eating an apple to show she's a boophole"

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 117
     Post Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 1:32 am 
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    Caprice wrote:
    Things are going to be rough if all the Decrypted casters turn though. No more city golems, guns, portal hax, or Jack :(


    What? Jack?

    Gotta get him back. Back to the side. Illusion-i Jack

    ... Hmm, so if S. Jack became friends with Ashi, who ... Episode C, then would our Jack become friends with ... who ...

    You know, the parallels are pretty close.
    Spoiler: show
    Ok, so Ashi turned to the side of "e-vil". Wanda, the lady of our Jack, is looking to turn to some enemy of our Jack. The parallels, accidental, between Samuri Jack and Illusionist Jack are pretty good.

    If Wanda goes, and takes the decrypted with, will Jack go to Jill, or will Jack show independent thought?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 117
     Post Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 1:33 am 
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    Rollory wrote:
    I am registering just to say that this is the point where I get off.

    I've been reading Erfworld since the start on GITP. This has not, for quite a while now, been a story about a strategy gaming mastermind in a game-like world. Parson does not make strategy gamer decisions or implement strategy gamer moves. All the moves and choices he does make are either at odds with what an actual strategy gamer would do or are unrelated to a strategy gamer's thinking. I base this on years of experience in strategy board games and online strategy/tactical games, starting with Risk and VGA Planets back in the day and continuing through Stars and Axis and Allies and Emperor of the Fading Suns and every iteration of Age of Wonders - mostly turn-based, but tossing in some RTS like Age of Empires and Homeworld along the way. I base my comments on both my understanding of my own mindset and decision-making process, and what I've seen others do. We are told Parson is such a person, but not one single thing about how he is actually written fits any aspect of what decisions are actually made in such games. Winning strategy games is not about "lateral thinking" or finding loopholes in the rules - good games don't have such loopholes, anyway. It is about applying the rules BETTER than anybody else, of having a tighter OODA loop, of squeezing out marginal advantages in places they didn't seem to matter and stacking them at just the right time and place to be decisive. It is about player agency, player choice, player will and decisions impacting the game.

    Parson has behaved like a strategy gamer on exactly one occasion: when having the dragons attack the siege units and then retreat. His very first fight. Never since.

    I blame this on Rob Balder not being remotely familiar with the types of people who actually play such games, as well as not playing them himself. (There is absolutely no doubt on this point. As I said, the characterization - outside of the pizza-stain shirt and general nerdiness - is totally wrong, and the only way to get it so badly wrong is not to be familiar with the source material.)

    Every author has flaws. This would be a forgiveable one if the story was good. The idea was good, the execution has been getting progressively worse with no signs of improvement.

    The whole "fate" thing is a critical flaw at the core of this story concept. It makes every single victory Parson achieves be meaningless - they are not the product of him out-thinking his opponents, gamer fashion, but rather of him being incredibly lucky. Fate is used to drive the story in the directions the author clearly wants it to go, for reasons that have nothing to do with the characters or internal story logic. Every single scene, without exception, that involves Jillian can stand as an example of this. She torpedoes suspension of disbelief with every single thing she is written to do. She's the Author's Pet and what's been written around her leaves no other role for her except The One True Protagonist, with Parson as a supporting character. The only way to fix that is for Author to sidetrack her entirely and let her lose hard for a while. Turn her into a true second-tier character, instead of the first-tier character Author wants her to be, in spite of how the story simply doesn't work with her in it. But it's pretty clear he's not going to do that.

    As a general rule as well, the story takes twists and turns that make no sense - from Parson agreeing to the truce with Charlie in the first place (I've never known a winning strategy gamer who would not have gone straight for the throat and killed Jillian in that moment; the only reason for the outcome as written is Because The Author Wanted It) to the whole Transylvito thing (Caesar switches sides "because they're good people, Squeezy", and in direct opposition to all actual evidence. Why did the bracer give such a high probability for an attack on TV? Again, Because The Author Wanted It), to ... whatever is going on now. Charlie plus Decrypted? That would be an interesting challenge IF this was a strategy gamer story. But it's not. It's a story about ever-more extravagant loopholes in the rules, and marionettes dancing to Balder's tune.

    What is the conflict at the heart of this story? Is it Parson v. Fate? Then Charlie is a good guy. Is it Parson v. Charlie? Then it doesn't matter because fate says Parson wins no matter what - and Charlie looks like a good guy again, because he's the one with an uncertain outcome. Is it Parson v. Erfworld? Then the conflict is very poorly defined and hasn't been well presented. Is, instead, the REAL story "Author moves his marionnettes around to make them do what he wants"? Then why do we care?

    There is no internal logic to this story. There is no visible point. There is no visible goal. Seriously what exactly is Parson's overriding goal at this point? What's his motivation? What is he trying to do? Why does he care? "Beat Charlie"? Charlie's more of a gamer mindset than Parson is; if it wasn't for Because Author Wants, they'd be pals. "Win the war for Gobwin Knob" looks fine at first glance but what's the point of doing that, that makes it more than just winning a video game? This far into the story, why don't we have a clear answer to this?

    I no longer have any expectation that any sort of complete story will be told here. It's just going to keep getting more convoluted and sidetracked and Jillianish, and while I used to care and be interested, and while it frustrates me that I don't anymore (thus this note) - I'm at the final fatal point for any reader.

    I don't care what happens to these people.


    While i agree that the story has been largely nauseous in this book, mainly due to the forced inactivity of the main characters, i do not agree with your purist frame of the strategy games. For the thinking outside the box and "cheating/circumventing/redefining" the rules you need a flexible adaptible element - a Gamemaster/Dungeonmaster. Games with a fixed set of rules don't need that. The games Parson made had a p&p element to it. While i know some of the games you mentioned none of those have a DM.

    Coming from the pen&paper angle, i approach my breaking point from the railroad angle. it is boring to game. The lack of agency of the main-chars has been very very dominant in this book. The fluidity largely was between honey and tar. So far the proper name could simply be "charlie foxtrot"

    Some goals have been defined

    - all arkentools on one side (Wanda's goals) - Quest victory
    - no more war (Janis) - bringing the game to an end
    - stay free (MK barbarian casters) - status quo at game end
    - defeat charlie (Parson) - archenemy annihilation victory
    - defeat fate (charlie & carnies) - "defeat gm"
    - replace non-royal sides by royal ones (RCC) "religious victory"
    - conquer erfworld (Stanley) "complete military victory"
    - see that fate gets its way (Marie & Predictamancers) "fate victory, whatever fate means - probably making omens happen the way they want"

    Well some agency has been returned, fluidity is coming - i'm not leaving, i want to see where it leads.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 117
     Post Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 1:34 am 
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    Chiu ChunLing wrote:
    Jillian haters rejoice! Because if Jillian accepts Marie's turning (and I'm thinking that she just Predicted Jillian would) there is nothing stopping Marie from shooting her in the head so Wanda can fix Charlie's deprogramming.

    That's not what duty to your side and your ruler would usually demand, but in this case it very possibly is.

    And, if that's how it worked out, Marie won't have lied to Georgia or Jillian.


    It's the only way to get Jillian free of what Charlie did to her. The Deal Of A Lifetime will still protect Faq from Charlescomm, and one thing we know about Marie is that she is all about cheating the cheating monster.

    Plus we have just seen that she has no normal loyalty to her side as such, only to Fate and the instruments of Fate. And since Parson is one of those instruments, I can't see her going directly against him, and working in any way for Charlie.

    I don't think that Marie can just go and shoot Jillian immediately, however, as the whole plan won't work without getting Wanda to turn to Faq (so she can croak Archons without penalty), and getting the Arkenpliers to Decrypt troops in the MK.

    Next up, getting Parson to become extremely relevant to this whole story line. Because without him, it is down to Marie and Wanda and the forces of Fate working everything, and I just don't think that is really the heart of a good story.

    After all, the book is Charlie Foxtrot vs Hamsterdance, and we have to see the Hamster dance again for that to hold true. The battle in Portal Park was a good start, but the second round should be even better.

    Maybe Hamsterdance, Part 2: A Great Rejuicing?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 117
     Post Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 1:38 am 
    Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter This user is a Tool! Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day Won Mine4erf for the Gobwins Spades Suit Pip Hearts Suit Pip
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    Carl wrote:
    The question for me is how in all hells Jillian is going to get Wanda out of there and get her on her side. I just don't see how they're going to manage it. Charlie has a decent deal laid out that i could buy into wanda going for on the grounds she can betray charlie after the fact, Joining with Jillian seems the worst of all worlds.

    I can't help but feel this is another ploy by Marie. But to what end i have no idea. Circles within circles.


    I believe the ploy is to make Jillian to call Charlie and stop the current attempt by Charlie to recruit Wanda and her decrypted.

    Marie seems to believe that Jillian can issue an ultimatum that stops Charlie from doing what he wants, or at least makes him and Jillian argue and give Wanda, Ivan, and Claude a chance to escape.

    In other news: I have a LOT of trouble buying the sincerity of Marie's words. She waited an awful long time before shooting Georgia. She could have offered to re-join Faq much earlier and not croaked Duncan and De Trop and so many other units first.

    I think croaking all the Faq units was intended to increase Jillian's helplessness and force her to call Charlie. Because, seriously, what else can she do? If she doesn't get all her units decrypted, she's doomed. Her city is now almost empty of talking units. Jillian cannot leave ICFYS and also defend it. She has no commanders left except Albert, and he's far away.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 117
     Post Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 1:40 am 
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    Thecommander236 wrote:
    Carl wrote:
    The thing is Jillian rarely shows a tendency to think with her head on a strategic level. Everything we've seen indicates she's not a bad tactician, but her strategic goals tend to be decided by her heart much more than her head. She's not going to approach this logically like that.


    She would never admit it, but her and Stanley are a lot alike in this regard. If it wasn't for his attack on her Kingdom... Well, I think they would still hate each other, but I believe they would hate each other because they ARE so alike. Bullies who never really grew up. They even share each other's bloodlust.


    Sorry but i gotta say hold your horses. What Stanley and Jillian have is a LONG way from bloodlust. Bloodlust is about combat for the joy of the slaughter, and i wouldn't characterise either of them as possessing that in the slightest. Their happy in combat sure. But not because they inherently enjoy watching people die. They're happy because it's the only time, (as several updates have outlined), they feel comfortable, in control, confident. The reasons why that is are different.

    Stanley popped as a piker with all the baggage that brings. He never had a real desire in life to be more than a good guy at stabbing enemies of his side. Becoming overload meant taking on a whole bunch of things he was never popped with the knowledge to handle, and which he never had any desire.

    Jillian popped as an outright heir, but she did so in a kingdom that from the moment she appeared hated and despised her in every possibble way and wanted nothing more than her to be gone, and even when they relied on the money she brought in they still refused to even acknowledge that. They made the only time she was happy be when she was away from home. Which meant out fighting or heading for one.

    In effect stanley is how he is because of how he was made. nature if you will. Jillian is how she is because thats how the court of FAQ molded her to be, Nurture if you will. Not that the how matter very much to my initial point but worth discussing all the same, and i agree they're very alike.
    OldeSword wrote:
    Thecommander236 wrote:
    As a flawed, deeply troubled character, Jillian is an interesting tragic character. Always a pawn, always seems like she is in control, but has never made a choice that wasn't destined for her. Yeah, she's handed everything, but at what price? She values her freedom more than anything, but she has never once had freedom of choice. Someone or something has always chosen for her.

    She didn't have to take Don King's money. Or Charlie's. She didn't have to pick up his guns and use them against GK. Charlie wrote contractual protections for Jillian against GK that didn't cost her a thing. Heck, Charlie wanted Jillian to do one thing which was fight for Spacerock and instead she just grabbed Ansom and ran. Then Charlie still bailed her out.

    Jillian keeps winding up in bad positions because she makes poor decisions, but she never learns from them because Rob keeps swooping in and saving her from herself.

    gimli_mx wrote:
    OldeSword wrote:
    I just... cannot understand why people keep throwing themselves at Jillian

    Old loyalties never died I guess. Shades of Miller's Crossing.

    What confuses me is that I find Jillian to be such an unlikable character that I don't see what that initial loyalty was based on. It's not like she was this amazing person pre-surgery that her old friends are hanging around hoping that she'll somehow recover.


    Oh right because she made so many bad decisions to get to this point. Taking freely offered gifts was bad, intelligently using those gifts to build up a force and then take those and use them to beat the tar out of multiple GK cities, took their former capital from them was bad.

    Look hate on Jillian all you want. But either give her credit for decisions she;s freely made or admit that she's completely controlled with no free will. You not have it both ways. if she's accepting all this help of her own free will what she does with that help within the limits of what it can do is on her too. And frankly given the forces arrayed against her she hasn't done badly.

    No she hasn't gone around beating the tar out of absolutely everything she's faced. She's leading a brand new side from the get go with mechanical limits on how big and fast she can grow. There's no way she can build a force big enough to solo oppose even Stanley;s personal stack in that time frame. Which is why she avoided anything like that level of power in her raiding spree from hell. Stanley choosing to risk himself was a massive curveball, and frankly if Maggie and Parson, (and i assume Wanda), didn't see it coming ahead of time i have no idea why we'd expect Jillian to do so. Those three between them probably have a few thousand turns experiance managing him, they know him far better than she does.

    And thats what hacks me off about Jillian and the forums. Anything that benefits her is fate helping her. Anything she does that hurts her is her own fault, all stacked with hypocrisy such as yours where you try and dismiss the decisions you can't pin on fate as a way to criticize further.

    But then i don't think any of you actually care about any of that, your just looking for excuses for your mindless emotional fueled hate. Something ironically you share with Jillian. Lulz. :lol:.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 117
     Post Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 1:42 am 
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    Chiu ChunLing wrote:
    ...And, if that's how it worked out, Marie won't have lied to Georgia or Jillian.


    First we take the city, then we dump the bodies for Wanda, then we take the MK. With Jillian as one of the bodies for Wanda.

    ...

    Right now, my respect for Marie is low; this would really bring it back up.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 117
     Post Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 1:43 am 
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    Oh this webcomic is going downhill FAST.

    This must be what happens when the author falls in love with his own universe and fail to tell a coherent story.

    I sort of understand the motives though - as long as the webcomic keeps trudging on, money keeps trickling in. So the story must never end.

    So much for quality and a good story. Just like Order of the Stick.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 117
     Post Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 1:49 am 
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    Bruno wrote:
    Oh this webcomic is going downhill FAST.

    This must be what happens when the author falls in love with his own universe and fail to tell a coherent story.

    I sort of understand the motives though - as long as the webcomic keeps trudging on, money keeps trickling in. So the story must never end.

    So much for quality and a good story. Just like Order of the Stick.


    I won't dispute that it looks bad at the moment with more mana from heaven fallin on top of Jillian, but at the moment things are exceedingly confusing, gambits are piling up and the endgame of the gambiteers is unclear. I don't feel you can call BS in the middle of things when the next few pages may just turn everything on its head.

    Again.

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