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 Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
 Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:21 am 
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Ozamataz Buckshank wrote:
I'm going to take the unpopular stance and say that this page would've been better as a comic rather than a text update. I don't really feel like getting some back story on a character that barely did anything and died on this page really improved it, and Duncan mostly just reiterated what we already knew, that he didn't understand his queen.


I agree. I was really excited to see that this was a text update (I normally enjoy them more than comic updates), but the action would've worked way better as a comic.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:21 am 
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    Just an old sweet song keeps Georgia on my mind...

    I'd love to see Maries thought process at this point. At first I felt she was very callous, but after some more pondering, I'm guessing that she saw Georgia as already dead (as she was fated to die in GK) and Marie was simply herding her fate along to serve a greater purpose. After all, (most) predictamancers believe that trying to evade fate leads only to suffering, so she might see it as a mercy killing.

    Another possibility is that this foreshadows Wanda actually turning to CC. Marie might need all the decrypted out of the way when this happens (or CC could take the city), and if so she might be planning to sacrifice herself as well - perhaps in a way that will get Jillian back on the path Fate intended for her.

    And if THAT happens, might Jillians plot armour finally go away?!?!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:23 am 
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    Realeyna wrote:
    The last few lines interest me from a Predictamancy standpoint:

    Quote:
    The Predictamancer raised her rifle, and took aim down the corridor. It seemed a sloppy sort of aim, placing Georgia in the line of fire.

    "Now, as always," she said, with a sad smile, "is the inevitable."


    We don't know what friendly fire actually entails in Erfworld for command units, particularly Predictamancers. Is there anything preventing Marie from just shooting a friendly unit intentionally? Does Stanley get a ping about friendly fire? The wording here makes me think that Marie, as a Predictamancer who knows Jillian has a Fate shield and (maybe) that Georgia was going to croak here today, could actually take (albeit poor) aim at Jillian, knowing that Fate will protect her and hit Georgia instead, thereby avoiding any consequences (if there are any) for friendly fire.


    I don't think Friendly Fire is a thing in Erfworld. Remember that Prince Albert killed his own soldier with a throwing knnife. Prince Ponzie was going to kill Don in his sleep with a sword.
    Bunny killed Don. We've seen units kill units on the same side before, it's just not very common. There isn't anything preventing command level units from killing units of the same side as far as we've seen.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:24 am 
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    Is there anything stopping Marie from turning to FAQ (with Jillian's blessing, after some diplomacy) and then shooting Jillian in the head?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:24 am 
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    My prediction on who the bed chamber is waiting for. :albert:lbert.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:37 am 
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    Crisis21 wrote:
    Holy boop... Just how much more tangled can this get?!


    Depends. Can we get a spidew to weave a web? (Points if we see words in the web).

    On the death of the minor characters: Gilderstein, Rose, and Cranz. (Oxford comma included).

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    UNEXPECTED! TWIST! What now?

    We get a knight named "Shamalaya", and promote him to Major?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:45 am 
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    Titans, poor Georgia D': I was worried that she wouldn't make it (especially since she can't escape to the MK like Marie can), but I definitely wasn't expecting Marie to be the one to dust her. Duncan has the chance to be decrypted at least, but it feels that for characters we got to know a bit more about, both their dusting and croaking occurred with very little ceremony. They, and probably many others, deserved better.

    That being said, I have no idea what Marie's game plan is here.

    I doubt she's here to croak Jillian since she didn't want Georgia to do so.

    She could be trying for diplomacy/parley, but I don't think croaking all of Jillian's units would have helped in that endeavor. (I'm assuming/hoping the croaking/dusting of all units save for herself and Jillian were to serve some purpose? I just don't know what that would be though). And back to diplomacy/parley, I can't see Jillian allying with GK for any reason whatsoever due to her hatred of Stanley.

    If she wanted to turn to Faq, I don't see the need to croak any of Jillian's units.

    Some previous posts mentioned Marie may be waiting until she is turned to CC, in which case she'll be free to croak Jillian as the contract penalty will no longer apply to her. But then why bother dusting Georgia? There's also been some speculation that Jillian is fated based on her "plot armor" and Charlie's mysterious interest in keeping her alive. But being fated isn't always good anyway; for all we know if Jillian is fated it could be as simple as "Jillian is fated to be killed by a Predictamancer" or something. To be honest, it seems like a lot of planning and effort went into this just to be an "I need to croak you under these particular circumstances."

    So in short I have no idea where this is going :P

    As a side note, regarding Homme de Trop's name: Homme de Trop is French for man too much according to Google Translate, and de Trop also has a definition of unnecessary or unwanted. So you've got One Man too Many, or Unwanted/Unnecessary Man. A rather fitting name for a red shirt.

    Lovely update as usual :D

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:47 am 
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    Okay, so I'm re-reading the Declaration of Non-Aggression Between Charlescomm and Gobwin Knob. You can read full agreement here. I'll quote the relevant sections:
    SECTION 3 - RECITALS
    II. And whereas the Parties are resolved:
    b. that while the agreement is in effect, GK unilaterally extends similar consideration to cease and prevent hostile actions toward FAQ, excepting in the case of new and further aggression by FAQ against GK, in which case GK may take reasonable actions to defend its interest.


    SECTION 4 - THE AGREEMENT
    Part I - Terms of Truce
    b. GK agrees not to attempt to cause harm by any means to the units, allies, property or material interests of FAQ, except in the event that GK interests are physically attacked or threatened by FAQ. Even in the event of such provocation, GK shall not cause bodily harm to, or destruction of, JILLIAN, by any means, directly or indirectly. Failure to abide by this clause shall trigger full default of the agreement.
    c. Neither Party shall employ its units or agents to attempt to invade, occupy, or render useless the geographical territories and cities held by the other Party, including all hexes within six hexes of cities held by the other Party. Exceptions are to be made for units located in such territory at the time the agreement is Signed. Said units must withdraw to neutral territory within three (3) turns or be in breach of the agreement.


    SECTION 4 - THE AGREEMENT
    Part VI - Penalties and Remedies
    3. Default of Confidentiality
    The penalty for general breach of confidentiality under Section 4 - Part III "Confidentiality and Disclosure" shall consist of the transfer of one (1) city from the Party which committed the breach to the other Party. The choice of city is left to the compliant party.

    So, what this means is that only GK is under prohibition to not harm Jillian. Even if Wanda were to accept Charlie's deal, bankrupt GK, have everyone turn to Charlescomm, and then Marie were to shoot Jillian, it would not count as a violation.

    However, I might have figured out Marie's game. If Wanda were to accept Charlie's deal, bankrupt GK, have everyone turn to Charlescomm, and then Marie were to breach confidentiality, then GK could claim the city of Charlescomm. Each Charlescomm unit inside the GK city of Charlescomm would trigger a violation. I'm unsure if this is what's going to happen, but it is a viable possibility.


    Last edited by Axiom on Wed May 17, 2017 1:57 am, edited 5 times in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:49 am 
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    Pope William T Wodium wrote:
    Is there anything stopping Marie from turning to FAQ (with Jillian's blessing, after some diplomacy) and then shooting Jillian in the head?


    No, if Jillian was stupid enough to negotiate Marie turning but not handing over the gun, there would be nothing to prevent Marie from immediately shooting Jillian. However, remember that Jillian considers the decrypted to be meat puppets so while I think she'll hear Marie out, I doubt she's going to trust her.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:51 am 
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    Axiom wrote:
    Possibility B, on the other hand, is definitely possible.

    No, Possiblity B doesn't work. The contract is super-clear; only GK triggers a full default by harming Jillian. There is no clause in the DNAPBCGK protecting Jillian from Charliecomm.

    She could just start telling Jillian the details of the pact after turning. That would trigger at least one default, and possibly more, but certainly not a full default.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:54 am 
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    I didn't expect this, but i definitely saw it as a possibility. There's not a lot more to say than that right now, this could go so many different ways it's not funny.

    One more out there possibility, she could explain old FAQ's fall and then claim, true or false, that she gave wanda the prediction knowing what would happen because it was necessary. Take the blame, make herself the target of Jillian's rage and anger and grief. That would be a pretty carthic moment for Jillian, her revenge is what has sustained her for so long. Losing that would change her deeply. And completely change her approach to a lot of things i think. In effect she would be a new person. And i think someone Charlie would have a lot more trouble manipulating.

    I could easily see Stanley and Odie being forced to flee GWK, (EDIT: Note we have no info that rulers can be forced to turn), after Vurp leads in the Hobgobwins after the side falls to Wanda's treachery resulting in a Yoda/Obi-Wan situation, (How did we freaking miss that, it's so obvious), and they end up with FAQ at former GK after Jillian and CHarlie have a falling out. I could even see after recent events Stanley giving up the hammer. or maybe he's left it in the office, will lose it and when they retake jetstone Jillian will get to it first attune, but be smart enough to offer it back to her new CW who basically goes "Nah it isn't what i am, you keep it". And maybe offer her some wisdom about not letting it define who or what she is like he did.

    @Jade: I think the undeserved bit is the whole point, and probably why it was a text update, it needed to be slow paced to let us process each step more fully, to feel the senseless waste of good people. I think thats what marie is referencing here.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:55 am 
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    This page puts me in mind of Emirikol the Chaotic.

    So... what is Marie playing at? I mean, obviously she's trying to force fate to happen on terms that suit her personal preference, to hellabad with everyone else. But what does that mean for everyone else?

    It could be that Wanda will be heading this way shortly and Marie's trying to dictate the terms of her inevitiable confrontation with Gillian. It's also possible that Marie's intention towards them both is entirely murderous and that Wanda's escape is something she did not intend.

    technojunkie wrote:
    I'm also wondering if Marie is about to spill the beans about the true architect of FAQs last fall.

    And who was that? Marie must surely take the lion's share of the blame, even if she didn't personally sabotage the defences. And after today's update, well...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:58 am 
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    kiyote wrote:
    There's still quite a few outcomes available here outside of complete betrayal: Marie could turn to FAQ, and _then_ croak (or capture) Jillian, she could tell Jillian about Charlie, ready FAQ and ICFYS to receive Wanda, instead of Charlie, and so on.

    One thing she can't do is attack Jillian as a GK unit, so this makes sense. We always knew this would amount to at most a parlay.

    She could also go barbarian, croak or capture Jillian, and then claim the city to start a new side.

    ...Now that I think of it, is Jillian the only Faq unit left in ICFYS?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:59 am 
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    lucidfox wrote:
    kiyote wrote:
    There's still quite a few outcomes available here outside of complete betrayal: Marie could turn to FAQ, and _then_ croak (or capture) Jillian, she could tell Jillian about Charlie, ready FAQ and ICFYS to receive Wanda, instead of Charlie, and so on.

    One thing she can't do is attack Jillian as a GK unit, so this makes sense. We always knew this would amount to at most a parlay.

    She could also go barbarian, croak or capture Jillian, and then claim the city to start a new side.

    ...Now that I think of it, is Jillian the only Faq unit left in ICFYS?


    Only one in the garrison, which is all that matters.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 2:01 am 
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    Fourth paragraph, "Faq's only city."

    Maybe I missed other confirmation, but I'm too tired to double check if Vinny's inevitable victories have been mentioned officially, and it's worth mentioning if it hasn't.

    Time dilation, though. Two cities taken by one force before Marie and Jillian can meet halfway up a tower. The height of this tower is Efdup.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 2:05 am 
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    mneme wrote:
    Axiom wrote:
    Possibility B, on the other hand, is definitely possible.

    No, Possiblity B doesn't work. The contract is super-clear; only GK triggers a full default by harming Jillian. There is no clause in the DNAPBCGK protecting Jillian from Charliecomm.

    She could just start telling Jillian the details of the pact after turning. That would trigger at least one default, and possibly more, but certainly not a full default.


    I ninja'd you correcting me, lol.

    Marie breaking confidentiality after being claimed by Charlescomm would work. Breaking confidentiality doesn't trigger a violation, but it does allow GK to claim any of Charlescomm's cities. Then, any Charlescomm unit within 6 hexes of the reclaimed GK city would count as a violation, if I'm reading the contract right.

    So the series of events would be that Wanda agrees to Charlie's deal, GK goes bankrupt, everyone is claimed by Charlescomm (except Stanley, I guess), Marie violates confidentiality to Jillian, GK claims one of Charlescomm's cities, any Charlescomm unit within 6 hexes triggers a violation, Charlescomm goes bankrupt, everyone is claimed by GK?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 2:22 am 
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    I just have to point out that one of Jillian's NPCs was named "Homme de Trop", as a DM I have to appreciate the pun and I'm going to have to do something similar.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 2:24 am 
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    The problem with the "violate confidentiality to Jillian" theory is that it doesn't require Jillian; the penalty of 1 city applies if the terms of the contract are given to *anyone* outside of CC and GK, so if that were Marie's plan, she could have done so by waiting patiently inside the MK until she became a CC unit, and then just blabbed to the nearest caster (like, say, the one who was waiting by her side when she was Decrypted). Marie has gone through a lot of trouble to get to Jillian, so the plan presumably has Jillian in a role that only she can fill.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 2:29 am 
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    mneme wrote:
    Axiom wrote:
    Possibility B, on the other hand, is definitely possible.

    No, Possiblity B doesn't work. The contract is super-clear; only GK triggers a full default by harming Jillian. There is no clause in the DNAPBCGK protecting Jillian from Charliecomm.

    She could just start telling Jillian the details of the pact after turning. That would trigger at least one default, and possibly more, but certainly not a full default.

    Possibility B is speculating on a possible default of the Deal of a Lifetime, not of the agreement between CC and GK. I don't think we know the precise terms or penalties there, so it's a bit harder to gauge whether or not it would "work". It still feels a bit messy, because even if it entails full default of all CC assets (unlikely, considering similar contracts' penalties we've seen) the end result is everyone ends up under King Albert? Maybe?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 2:49 am 
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    Marie is capable of betraying absolutely anyone and doing absolutely anything to 'help' fate along. So my two guesses as to 'why kill Georgia?' are:

    1) It's the only way to cause Jillian to listen long enough for Marie to pull whatever she needs to pull.

    2) Marie will at some point do something that would cause Georgia to fight against Marie. What is that action? Dishonorable warfare is one possibility - really honorable units can and will rebel in extreme cases. Attacking Jillian is another possibility - Georgia has so far taken extreme pains not to do this. Betraying Wanda is another - most decrypted would do anything for Wanda. The interesting point here is that Marie doesn't actually have to do any of these actions, she just has to make Georgia believe she would.

    Overall, the Predictomancers are against CC. So Marie's actions have to hurt CC in some way. Several commenters have mentioned good ideas, but the ultimate 'screw you' to CC of all the theories I have seen is: Wanda turns to CC. Marie, as a CC unit, harms Jillian, triggering penalties under TDoaL. This would work with item 2 above because Georgia would see it as a betrayal of Wanda, so Georgia would have to go first.

    My twist on this is those events happen, but also:

    Marie harms but doesn't croak Jillian. She then tells Jillian something that puts Jillian firmly against CC. For example, what really happened in TDoaL. Jillian is now against CC, but due to the default, has lots of CC's resources. So the three sides that sort of surround CC (GK, FAQ, and TV) are now all against CC.

    Marie then tells Wanda something that turns her against Charlie. For example, "Charlie isn't the fated holder of the Dish, he's just an intermediary that has held onto it too long." Wanda orders the decrypted to punch GK units. CC's treasury meets a black hole. Just before Charlie disbands Wanda, Wanda turns to GK or maybe even FAQ and takes the decrypted with her.

    So, a lot of this is speculation and is probably very, very wrong. But the items I will hang my hat on are:
    A) Marie's current actions will hurt CC in some way, probably very badly.
    B1) In the long term, Jillian is the fated hammer wielder.
    B2) The Predictomancers know that and are trying to bring it about.
    B3) Since Stanley has to croak for that to happen, Wanda is obsessed with getting the Tools together, Jillian will never turn to GK, and Stanley will never just give Jillian the hammer, Wanda will turn to whatever side Jillian is on and help her take the hammer. Alternatively, if Jillian gets the hammer first, Wanda will turn to her side.

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