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 Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
 Post Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:57 pm 
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Robe still black and red, so doesn't look like she turned to anyone else's side.

Yet? Turn to TV, kill or cap Jillian for no penalty? Even without direction, still is an allied side, so clause should still kick in. Any way it doesn't?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:03 am 
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    Homme de Trop...
    I see what you did there, Rob.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:04 am 
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    dewtell wrote:
    Oh, of course. And the picture back at http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/244 may help clarify the layout. Presumably Marie entered the small door on the side of the big bedroom, and then circled around behind Georgia in the bedroom? But I feel like left and right may have gotten flipped on one of these pictures, unless Jillian and company were actually coming down the stairs on the right in that picture, despite being shown as heading for the stairway on the left.


    I think based on Duncan's internal monologue they went down the stairs on the left on page 244, then secured that whole floor, then went down the opposite stairs to reach the master bedroom floor.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:08 am 
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    Uh... did Marie just "accidentally" shoot Jillian by shooting Georgia instead?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:12 am 
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    Seven wheels spinning in seventeen directions. Machinations and power afoot everywhere with Parson making nary an appearance.

    His reputation as a fated unit is doing more to erfworld than he himself.

    Parson is going to change erfworld? Scoff. Modern building clearing tactics are baseline and everyone knows them.

    What do we need Parson for? Unconventional tactics? The will to try impossible things? Near every short story has examples of both. Charlie's got 'em in spades. Isaac would have eventually discovered corners of the universe left to his own devices.

    What about Parson?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:13 am 
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    I'm going to take the unpopular stance and say that this page would've been better as a comic rather than a text update. I don't really feel like getting some back story on a character that barely did anything and died on this page really improved it, and Duncan mostly just reiterated what we already knew, that he didn't understand his queen.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:18 am 
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    Possibility A: As Hague pointed out, Marie may have carnied the Contract by intending to shoot Georgia and catching Jillian as an "accidental" backstop.

    Possibility B: As others have suggested, Marie is going to croak Jillian after Wanda has turned herself and by proxy Marie to Charlescomm, triggering a DOTL default against Charlie. Presumably nanosecond timing would be needed to pull that off, and Georgia would, again presumably, have gotten in the way of that.

    I don't really like either of those theories, but A seems to me the most logically plausible, while B is the more narratively compatible.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:18 am 
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    Holy boop! Marie is so far beyond ice cold, she's zero Kelvin!

    In the absence of the ArkenPliers/Wanda, Decrypted units are free to follow their own will, from when they were popped. So, Marie is still planning something against Charlie, but eliminating units working for/turning to Charlie while Wanda takes Charlie's deal?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:24 am 
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    The last few lines interest me from a Predictamancy standpoint:

    Quote:
    The Predictamancer raised her rifle, and took aim down the corridor. It seemed a sloppy sort of aim, placing Georgia in the line of fire.

    "Now, as always," she said, with a sad smile, "is the inevitable."


    We don't know what friendly fire actually entails in Erfworld for command units, particularly Predictamancers. Is there anything preventing Marie from just shooting a friendly unit intentionally? Does Stanley get a ping about friendly fire? The wording here makes me think that Marie, as a Predictamancer who knows Jillian has a Fate shield and (maybe) that Georgia was going to croak here today, could actually take (albeit poor) aim at Jillian, knowing that Fate will protect her and hit Georgia instead, thereby avoiding any consequences (if there are any) for friendly fire.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:25 am 
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    To those who think Parson is in any sort of bad shape whatsoever based on recent developments, just remember he has a plan (something involving Moneymancy, p. 252), which by the Unspoken Plan Guarantee rule is virtually certain to be wildly successful, and which the use of Moneymancy suggests will likely involve the transfer of large amounts of Schmuckers, indicating that the contract will be involved.

    I find it interesting that people are speaking as though more than one character has been eliminated in this update. GP is well and truly gone, but Duncan is merely croaked, which is of course nowhere near the same thing. In a world that still contains an attuned Wanda, being croaked is more like being incapacitated, except that instead of needing Healomancy within the turn to live, you need the Arkenpliers.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:27 am 
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    Realeyna wrote:
    The last few lines interest me from a Predictamancy standpoint:

    Quote:
    The Predictamancer raised her rifle, and took aim down the corridor. It seemed a sloppy sort of aim, placing Georgia in the line of fire.

    "Now, as always," she said, with a sad smile, "is the inevitable."

    We don't know what friendly fire actually entails in Erfworld for command units, particularly Predictamancers. Is there anything preventing Marie from just shooting a friendly unit intentionally? Does Stanley get a ping about friendly fire? The wording here makes me think that Marie, as a Predictamancer who knows Jillian has a Fate shield and (maybe) that Georgia was going to croak here today, could actually take (albeit poor) aim at Jillian, knowing that Fate will protect her and hit Georgia instead, thereby avoiding any consequences (if there are any) for friendly fire.

    Albert croaked one of his own units and it looked like the only reason he got in trouble was because his mom got mad at him for it. I doubt there's any automatic consequences for attacking your own units, duty would just usually preclude it.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:31 am 
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    The whole of GK could turn to FAQ, which is protected by its own truce (Deal of a lifetime) re-ally with TV (and Jetstone and the other royal sides). Of course it would require the moneymancy gambit to replenish juice so comms can be established. Wanda just needs to want to be turned to FAQ

    Stanley would become a piker warlord, Jillian would get the hammer and CWL, Albert could hang out with the clowns and lead them, Parson would become ruler, Wanda becomes chief caster of course.

    The other course could be Jillian turning to GK perhaps protecting this side from Charlie by this. Since we don't know te terms of this contract (sparing us from zillions of forum post discussing this one) it would be sort of a deus ex machina.

    Edit to add:

    very unprobable: Marie could turn and convince Jillian to order her to croak her so she can get restored by the arkenpliers.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:37 am 
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    Hague wrote:
    Uh... did Marie just "accidentally" shoot Jillian by shooting Georgia instead?


    Jillian was definitely behind Georgia, so maybe. Jillian doesn't look croaked, not yet anyway.

    Of course, for the contract intent matters. So if Marie was not intending to shoot Jillian, then perhaps the contract wouldn't be violated?

    That's sneaky, and the whole "inevitable" thing points to something like that. Not sure how that helps rescue Wanda, but it solves the whole problem of conquering ICFYS, and thereafter putting the bodies through into the MK.

    Where, at some point sometime soon, Wanda will be able to Uncroak or Decrypt them all. If Jillian is among them, as well as her warlords, I'd expect Decryption because Marie would want to have Jillian, free of the Deal, on her side.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:39 am 
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    Maybe the bodies are required because they aren't decrypted yet?

    Picture this. One of Wanda's conditions is that Charlie gets her the pliers, and helps free the prisoners in the MK. Charlie agrees. Wanda punches archons until Sizemore belongs to CC, and Charlie orders him to bring the pliers to the MK. Charlie links with Sizemore so he can dig through bedrock. Wanda trades Sizemore the wonky wrench for the pliers, Charlie breaks the link. Wanda and Sizemore head to the prisoners. Lilith is pissed that Wanda is working for Charlie. Wanda frees Lilith and tells her to attack her (Wanda). Lilith, not being property of GK when CC was making claims, is still a member of Gobwin Knob. Charlie, having sent Tondy into the field, doesn't immediately have any Fox Forcers to help him clap his hands and disband her. While this is going on, Sizemore and Ivan go to rig the Spacerock portal. Wanda turns back to Gobwin Knob (Lilith starts slapping Claud) just as corpses and guns get pushed through the ICFYS portal.


    This is crazy improbable, and there are plenty of leaps in logic that are required. But I feel like

    1. The Faq corpses may be needed so that Charlie doesn't own every decrypted and gun after his plan goes into action.

    2. If Wanda becomes a member of CC, she'll only remain such until she can make her way to the prisoners and turn Charlie's plan back on him.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:39 am 
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    dewtell wrote:
    Krennson wrote:
    I'm confused... did Georgia Powers open fire after FOUR shots? I thought Mary told her to wait until FIVE shots had occured.


    Four shots in the firefight that killed Carrie. Fifth shot behind the closed door in the side corridor to the right (presumably to the left from our perspective) that provided the distraction. But I'm confused about how Marie made it back from there to a position behind Georgia in the main corridor. Did Marie have a teleport or illusion scroll handy to get back or create the side corridor version of her as an illusion? Is that supposed to be a discarded scroll bouncing along the floor next to Marie, or something else?

    Scooby Doo Doors.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:50 am 
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    Marie wouldn't need an order to croak Jillian if she's convinced that croaking her would be in the best interests of her new side (which is quite likely).

    The fact that Marie is a Predictamancer, and thus readily familiar with the idea of withholding information from her ruler and others as part of her duty, means that she doesn't even have to worry about being ordered to disclose the details of the contract, she'd just lie or say that it wasn't in Faq's best interests for Jillian to know. Or just shoot her on the spot.

    If she Predicts that the best thing for Faq is a decrypted Queen, and putting all the bodies and rifles through that portal, I can see her doing it. And I do see turning to Faq as a quite likely gambit, given that she just shot Georgia.

    The sticky point is Albert. I don't believe Albert would be keen on the situation happening in his only city, once his ruler senses appraised him of it. The upside is that he probably won't realize that Jillian was shot by Marie. If he's too paralyzed by uncertainty to give a bunch of orders that would contradict Marie's plans, then she can shoot Jillian, then take command of the remaining troops and order them to dump all the bodies (including Jillian) through the portal. Would Albert even be able to figure out what they were doing? I don't believe ruler senses necessarily would let him know the nature of the burdens being moved about in his distant city by his units.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:59 am 
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    Wow, no flame wars yet. I blame the lack of flame wars on two characters thinking about Jillian in an unflattering way.

    I can't believe Duncan is gone for good. I wonder if he will treat his third side better than Wanda did old Faq. Will Vanna's work be undone, helping him get over her?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:06 am 
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    With the combination of Marie saying "Not every soldier matters" last time and Powers asking "How are we handling the Queen?"... I realized Marie was going to dust her. The whole "Let's shove croaked units through the portal" was a lie to get Powers moving. Real tragic end.

    I think Marie dusted Powers to gain some trust/leverage in the impending conversation she and Jillian are about to have... and that the alternative would have been Marie inevitably only able to watch as Jillian chopped Powers down. Neither Decrypted in the situation could do anything else but watch because of the contract but now at least Marie has stumbled Jillian enough to show that 1) not all Decrypted units are mindless puppets and that 2) Marie is working on a bigger agenda here.

    So the question is:

    If not every battles matters, and not every soldier matters... then what always matters Marie? What do you want to accomplish?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:10 am 
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    Yes! Wanda Jillian Shipping!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:17 am 
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    Aion wrote:
    Possibility A: As Hague pointed out, Marie may have carnied the Contract by intending to shoot Georgia and catching Jillian as an "accidental" backstop.

    Possibility B: As others have suggested, Marie is going to croak Jillian after Wanda has turned herself and by proxy Marie to Charlescomm, triggering a DOTL default against Charlie. Presumably nanosecond timing would be needed to pull that off, and Georgia would, again presumably, have gotten in the way of that.

    I don't really like either of those theories, but A seems to me the most logically plausible, while B is the more narratively compatible.

    Possibility A wouldn't work, it would still trigger a violation. In all the examples that Ivan gave where you could avoid contract penalties based on intention, it was always something that the enemy did to themselves or was a natural consequence of what the enemy did:
    "You can't deliberately set up an item or emplacement to wound or croak...or even immobilize...aunit," said Ivan. "Under truce, your intentions matter."

    Claud frowned. "So if an enemy stubs his toe on a brick wall you built..."

    "Doesn't count."

    "Or a seige unit takes down a tower and it falls on them?"

    "I have seen that happen," said Ivan, perking up. "Doesn't count, unless you set it up to fall over that way."

    Shooting Jillian through Georgia would count as a violation, even if it wasn't intentional, because Marie intended for that bullet to kill SOMEONE and getting shot isn't a natural consequence of anything Jillian did in this situation.

    Possibility B, on the other hand, is definitely possible.

    EDIT: Nevermind, Possibility B doesn't work either. Only GK incurs penalty from harming Jillian. Charlie isn't bound by that segment of the contract.


    Last edited by Axiom on Wed May 17, 2017 1:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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