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 Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
 Post Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 10:59 pm 
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wild prediction: marie gets jillian to offer wanda to turn to Faq (somehow, maybe another prepared scroll or through decrypted link). wanda turns, with all her decrypted and blows away the archons in the tunnels.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 10:59 pm 
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    Now I dislike Marie.

    Anyhow, what if her plan is to turn to FAQ but somehow avoid Loyalty problems magically? Could be the reason Georgia had to die. She then is free to overthrow her new queen. The reason why everyone else nearby had to die.

    Meh, farfetched I guess.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:00 pm 
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    If there is a City of Heroes, I hope Downer and Georgia can find some peace there. They were traditionalists who did their best, and died in service and to the best of their abilities.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:01 pm 
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    There's still quite a few outcomes available here outside of complete betrayal: Marie could turn to FAQ, and _then_ croak (or capture) Jillian, she could tell Jillian about Charlie, ready FAQ and ICFYS to receive Wanda, instead of Charlie, and so on.

    One thing she can't do is attack Jillian as a GK unit, so this makes sense. We always knew this would amount to at most a parlay.


    Last edited by kiyote on Tue May 16, 2017 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:01 pm 
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    Check Off Guns ~ Chekhov's Gun. Well played Rob. Well played.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:01 pm 
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    Oh. Oh wow. Wonder if she's going to time this so that the moment Wanda and all the decrypted turn to Chuck, the bullet will already be fired at Jillian?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:05 pm 
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    Typo: during their tenure at Chief Warlord.

    Should be as.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:08 pm 
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    I wonder if a request/acceptance of turning would be enough for Jillian to realize there actually is something to the decrypted...

    I'm also wondering if Marie is about to spill the beans about the true architect of FAQs last fall.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:09 pm 
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    Holy boop... Just how much more tangled can this get?!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:10 pm 
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    Krennson wrote:
    I'm confused... did Georgia Powers open fire after FOUR shots? I thought Mary told her to wait until FIVE shots had occured.


    Four shots in the firefight that killed Carrie. Fifth shot behind the closed door in the side corridor to the right (presumably to the left from our perspective) that provided the distraction. But I'm confused about how Marie made it back from there to a position behind Georgia in the main corridor. Did Marie have a teleport or illusion scroll handy to get back or create the side corridor version of her as an illusion? Is that supposed to be a discarded scroll bouncing along the floor next to Marie, or something else?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:12 pm 
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    Corran wrote:
    I gotta say, I really enjoyed the dig at the forum here from Duncan.
    ...huh?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:13 pm 
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    I wondered what was going to happen to GP when it was expressed how much she hated Jillian. Given how bound their hands are, switching sides, offering switches, and diplomacy are basically the only weapons they can really use right now.

    Of course, if Marie is careful enough with her words, she can might be able to convince Jillian that she is Charlie's agent, which might be enough to tip the signamancy of the GK/CC agreement so that Charlie will be forced to try and stop her... and I think we know how badly that'll turn out.

    Alas, poor Georgia, I knew her torque ratio. (sounds like a good name for a turnamancer)

    As for Marie being "cold" I recall the discussion Parson had with Maggie after blowing up the volcano (or is that considered spoilers for the first book?), the one about being "the third worst monster" and all that. In order to win, you will eventually have to be a monster, but, as Maggie recently (when talking in TV through the doll) reminded Parson, there comes a time when you have to reign it in, and not strive to be "the worse monster".

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:15 pm 
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    dewtell wrote:
    Krennson wrote:
    I'm confused... did Georgia Powers open fire after FOUR shots? I thought Mary told her to wait until FIVE shots had occured.


    Four shots in the firefight that killed Carrie. Fifth shot behind the closed door in the side corridor to the right (presumably to the left from our perspective) that provided the distraction. But I'm confused about how Marie made it back from there to a position behind Georgia in the main corridor. Did Marie have a teleport or illusion scroll handy to get back or create the side corridor version of her as an illusion? Is that supposed to be a discarded scroll bouncing along the floor next to Marie, or something else?


    It's a spent shell casing.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:15 pm 
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    kiyote wrote:
    One thing she can't do is attack Jillian as a GK unit, so this makes sense. We always knew this would amount to at most a parlay.


    She can, she just has to believe that the cost is worth it. Does she believe that the cost is worth it? I'm pretty sure the answer to that is yes, for all possible costs.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:15 pm 
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    My guess is marie turns soon, whether independent or to CharlesComm not sure yet. We've already seen that jack was free to tell new stories after decryption, and once she isn't under gobwin knob livery she's free to disclose a certain Deal of a Lifetime she witnessed and set Jillian on a fun new revenge target.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:16 pm 
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    gamingfreak10 wrote:
    wild prediction: marie gets jillian to offer wanda to turn to Faq (somehow, maybe another prepared scroll or through decrypted link). wanda turns, with all her decrypted and blows away the archons in the tunnels.


    That was my first thought as well, but I don't think Wanda would go along with it. Wanda's overriding goal is to collect the Arkentools (or at least to organize their attuned wielders into some sort of coalition). She does this because she intensely believes that Fate wants it.

    Wanda joining Charlie is at least within the realm of possibility given extreme circumstances. However, I fail to see how Wanda could be convinced to turn to Faq. Maybe if all the characters were to sit down and explain that Jillian works for Charlie and that Jillian could potentially attune to the Arkenhammer, but not under these circumstances. Plus, it's not like Jillian/Marie can call up Wanda to try to persuade her.

    I guess I'm saying that I have no fucking clue what Marie's goal here is. I need to reread and think on it for a bit.

    EDIT:

    Okay, so I'm re-reading the Declaration of Non-Aggression Between Charlescomm and Gobwin Knob. You can read full agreement here. I'll quote the relevant sections:
    SECTION 3 - RECITALS
    II. And whereas the Parties are resolved:
    b. that while the agreement is in effect, GK unilaterally extends similar consideration to cease and prevent hostile actions toward FAQ, excepting in the case of new and further aggression by FAQ against GK, in which case GK may take reasonable actions to defend its interest.


    SECTION 4 - THE AGREEMENT
    Part I - Terms of Truce
    b. GK agrees not to attempt to cause harm by any means to the units, allies, property or material interests of FAQ, except in the event that GK interests are physically attacked or threatened by FAQ. Even in the event of such provocation, GK shall not cause bodily harm to, or destruction of, JILLIAN, by any means, directly or indirectly. Failure to abide by this clause shall trigger full default of the agreement.
    c. Neither Party shall employ its units or agents to attempt to invade, occupy, or render useless the geographical territories and cities held by the other Party, including all hexes within six hexes of cities held by the other Party. Exceptions are to be made for units located in such territory at the time the agreement is Signed. Said units must withdraw to neutral territory within three (3) turns or be in breach of the agreement.


    SECTION 4 - THE AGREEMENT
    Part VI - Penalties and Remedies
    3. Default of Confidentiality
    The penalty for general breach of confidentiality under Section 4 - Part III "Confidentiality and Disclosure" shall consist of the transfer of one (1) city from the Party which committed the breach to the other Party. The choice of city is left to the compliant party.

    So, what this means is that only GK is under prohibition to not harm Jillian. Even if Wanda were to accept Charlie's deal, bankrupt GK, have everyone turn to Charlescomm, and then Marie were to shoot Jillian, it would not count as a violation.

    However, I might have figured out Marie's game. If Wanda were to accept Charlie's deal, bankrupt GK, have everyone turn to Charlescomm, and then Marie were to breach confidentiality, then GK could claim the city of Charlescomm. Each Charlescomm unit inside the GK city of Charlescomm would trigger a violation. I'm unsure if this is what's going to happen, but it is a viable possibility.

    EDIT 2:

    While this remains a possibility, I don't know why Marie would kill Georgia Powers or even why Marie would need to break confidentiality to Jillian in particular. Marie could tell literally anyone and the effect should be the same. Maybe she's doing it to get Jillian's trust? Perhaps, after breaking confidentiality, Marie is going to talk to Jillian about Deal of a Lifetime things? Depending on what Marie knows/how convincing she is, she might be able to "turn" Jillian against Charlie. Imagine Charlie bankrupt with his main pawn turned against him.


    Last edited by Axiom on Wed May 17, 2017 6:27 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:18 pm 
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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:19 pm 
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    Well, I was sure that Georgia wasn't surviving the assault on the city, but I was more expecting that Marie would use her as cannon fodder as part of some final gambit. I figured Marie personally killing her to be unlikely. Maybe one in four...until I started reading the Georgia portion of this one. I'm sorry Georgia. I hope your life was worth whatever Marie has spent it for.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:20 pm 
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    angus_thermopylae wrote:
    Hmmm...Predictamancers deal with Fate, and "smart" ones work with it (or along side it) instead of opposing it.

    Despite Charlie's messing around with the Jester in Jillian's head, it's possible/probable that Jillian still has a Fate that must be honored, one that Marie is dealing with regardless of the cost to herself.

    (As an aside--I'm still not sure about Jillian's Jester. Charlie called it the true enemy, and was finished with Jillian's magical lobotomy once that was taken out. Maybe it was a kind of Fate's Emissary, or one of the Fate golems that Roger talked about. But neither explanation seems satisfactory to me. Even if it was unusual circumstances, Charlie "stopping Fate" by taking out some internal demon/golem/parasite seems to be a bit too direct for a Carnymancer.

    But, I've been wrong before...)



    I've always read the Jester as the part of Jillian that nudged her along the path that fate wanted her to travel.

    Charlie destroying it left her without her connection to fate, blind and unguided, basically fighting her own fate.

    Imo Jillian is to Charlie a tool he can use to fight against fate using its own agent. He didn't call the Jester the true enemy, he called it a tool of the enemy, i.e. something fate used to influence events.

    I have a feeling he did something similar to Wanda, and that is why it seems like she is always her own worst enemy

    I think when Charlie killed the Jester (and presumably the Jester's counterpart in Wanda's mind) what Erfworld was left with was a couple of Fated units (devilishly hard to kill, and they cause a lot of chaos both in their side and neighboring sides) who would actively misread or ignore the "cues" that Fate gave them from then on out.

    Fate can't replace them with something worse because they are still alive, but they also find it difficult if not impossible to properly fullfill their fate because they are making the wrong choices at every turn.

    Its another attempt by Charlie to "cheat" Erfworld, or break it like he tried to with the chickens.

    I'm not sure he actually had a plan for them when he lobotomized them.... I think that probably sprang up later on, once he had observed them for a bit.

    Destroying the Jester wasn't a way to kill Fate... But it is an attempt to throw a spanner in the works of a huge and complicated machine that encompasses the whole world and self-corrects its own machinery.


    Last edited by Sylvan on Wed May 17, 2017 12:08 am, edited 4 times in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 116
     Post Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:21 pm 
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    Two major characters just died in one page... I think we're looking at the end of Book 3 coming up pretty soon, all the loose strings are being brought together.

    And not in a very nice way for Parson and GW by the looks of things.

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