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 Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 114
 Post Posted: Tue May 09, 2017 11:56 pm 
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maestoso wrote:
Any suggestions as to how the archons got down there?

Best I've got is that they went through the rigged portal before it got smashed to doritos, but that seems unlikely, because the archons would then be stuck under bedrock. As far as we know, there's no way out from there. It's unlikely that Charlie would keep a standing force down there, right?


I've got that alternate hypothesis now- they are unknowing garrison guards.

"OK Triples 57 and 58- you're being assigned to a Charlescomm underground fortress location. We can't tell you where in the world you will go. You are to veil. We will put these bags on your head and quietly lead you to your destination. You will be guarding this place for 300 turns and will then be relieved. No enemy forces should be able to reach your location, if they do, detain them for debriefing."

So they were shuffled in as low ranking security guards and don't know when or where they are.

In which case simply blowing their minds by revealing the truth.

It would also explain why they haven't used lethal force yet- they weren't authorized to in the first place. Charlie didn't expect anyone to be able to get down there, but thinking in contingencies, conceded it was remotely possible someone else might. And in that case he'd want to capture them and learn everything they know about how they got down there.

If Charlie is in communication with these archons, the only reasonable course is to erase these three and dust/croak them now. Kill the information dead, claim the Archontool.

I submit Charlie can't communicate through bedrock to know what's going on. Even then he could use his natural Rulermancy to give them the orders to open fire- if he had any inkling that they were potentially in combat.

Suppositions-
Charlie doesn't know what's going on in the bunker right now.
Charlie can't open full Dish communications through bedrock without a shocked connection.

OR

Charlie DOES know, but can't afford to kill Claud and Ivan because he needs them to help restore his Shocked connection to the Dish.
Charlie doesn't know for sure if they will dust if he croaks Wanda and isn't willing to chance it and live with an unshocked connection until someone else with the rare talents like Ivan can be found.
Charlie doesn't know for sure if Wanda has the power to just disband Decrypted at will.

Hmmm.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 114
     Post Posted: Tue May 09, 2017 11:56 pm 
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    Arci wrote:
    Charlie can't afford to croak Wanda, he doesn't know if the decrypted keep EXISTING if she bites it. I mean, they probably will, but Charlie is cautious.

    Which means, if he croaks Wanda, it's game-over for him, Stanley can basically take Charlie's EVERYTHING and let him waste away with no upkeep.


    I honestly didn't think of this. If killing Wanda does make the decrypted go poof, then Charlie's on the hook for all of them.

    First Alternate Possibility: Charlie gets Ivan and Claud to surrender the Wonky Wrench by threatening Wanda, and then the Archons take the wrench with them through Charlescomm's portal. This would essentially trap Wanda, Ivan, and Claud below the bedrock and would neutralize the threat of GK taking over the MK this turn. Charlie doesn't really care if everyone in the MK dies or not, but he sure as shit doesn't want them all decrypted and taking orders from Parson. This effectively "carnies" the Arkenpliers and removes them from play because if Wanda can't touch them (because they're in Spacerock and she's permanently trapped under bedrock in this scenario) then no more decryption.

    Second Alternate Possibility: Charlie is going to try to turn over Wanda, Ivan, and Claud to the barbarian MK casters to have them executed. Since they want to kill her anyway, that might allow Charlie to squeak by without having to pay the penalty.

    If Charlie has a pitch to try to turn Wanda, here's where he makes it.


    Last edited by Axiom on Wed May 10, 2017 12:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 114
     Post Posted: Tue May 09, 2017 11:57 pm 
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    Would Charlie also pay 5M per uncroaked unit that does (???) if Wanda croaks?

    (edit: bah, so ninjad)


    Last edited by Danalog on Tue May 09, 2017 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 114
     Post Posted: Tue May 09, 2017 11:57 pm 
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    Fylwind wrote:
    Is that Tondelayo gunning Wanda? If so, I wonder why she/Charlie decided to make this so personal.


    Yes it is. She's wearing the same gloves and tie, plus you can tell because the Fox Force uniforms are a slightly darker blue than the regular Charlescomm Archons.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 114
     Post Posted: Tue May 09, 2017 11:58 pm 
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    ADB wrote:
    TheMilquetoastFool wrote:
    Croaking Wanda's worth the 5M Smuckers, is croaking our inglorious bastards worth it as well?


    Absolutely worth it.

    Not without knowing absolutely for sure if Decrypted can survive the attuned wielder's demise. Charlie could be looking at billions in payout. He could lose all his stuff, his gem stash, his city, his units, and become a prisoner in his own capital waiting to croak the next day when he can't cast Carnymancy to extend his own existence.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 114
     Post Posted: Wed May 10, 2017 12:02 am 
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    http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/117

    What makes "surrender" a keyword vs. the "don't move, hands out to the sides"? Ugh, contract contrivances...

    Squishalot wrote:
    I believe it is Tondelayo, since the others have black hair. That's a helluva gamble by Charlie!

    Tondy from behind: http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/150


    And from the front http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/107

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 114
     Post Posted: Wed May 10, 2017 12:04 am 
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    It might well be they are all alive primarily Charlie wants them alive to restore his Shocked connection.

    Even more subtle-

    Jillian did relay her assessment back to Charlie: "I don't think Wanda hates you- in fact she might even be willing to work for you. If I hadn't been under NDA I might have been able to turn her right now."

    So maybe Charlie doesn't want to waste a potential asset as good as Wanda, and wants to try to turn her to his side. Decryption would definitely force multiply everything Charlescomm has going on. Fly in with heavy hitting, veiling, hard-to-croak, low attrition, long range sniping archons. Decrypt everything they croak, add it to Charlescomm as zero upkeep troops. (Upkeep being one of Charlescomm's biggest bottlenecks only having the one city and highly expensive elite archon units, giant treasury or no.)

    Yeah, given Charlie _probably_ knows about them, getting these three as assets is probably why they are still alive. Worst case Charlie says "Eh, don't want to join me? Fine, for the low low price of 15 mil I deprive you as an asset to my enemies, make sure all the info know about me dies with you, I get the Arkenpliers, I get the Wonky Wrench, I'm a hero for stopping the dread escaped fugitive Mistress Firebaugh."

    That is pretty win-win as far as things go for Charlie. No need to eradicate them right away (although that would still be smart on the Evil Supervillian Rules), given he can gun them down pretty much whenever if they don't become assets for them.

    Charlie likes to take a win and turn it into a super win at the price of more risk a little too much. He tempts Fate every time he does this.


    Last edited by ShaneTheBrain on Wed May 10, 2017 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 114
     Post Posted: Wed May 10, 2017 12:04 am 
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    Fylwind wrote:
    Is that Tondelayo gunning Wanda? If so, I wonder why she/Charlie decided to make this so personal.


    At first I thought "nah, Charlie wouldn't risk a FFF member like that" but I clearly didn't look close enough. That hair, could be a coincidence, but with that uniform - good call. Charlie must be lower on archons than I thought. I'd think it would be better to fast track some others up for clearance rather than risk a decrypted member of his highest level. Though maybe the benefits of her leadership here outweigh the risks. I thought Charlie would always err on the side of keeping his secrets, especially in a game where fate has such stakes but, well, we'll probably see something from Charlie's POV in the near future. It'll be interesting to know if this was actually Charlie's plan or if maybe he's just too burned out and Tondy decided to take some action on her own initiative.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 114
     Post Posted: Wed May 10, 2017 12:04 am 
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    Each portal shard is just a normal portal, as Ivan said - "not sharp or anything", you can either fit through it or you can't (but there were many shards, so I imagine at least one must be big enough for an archon). The archon in charge appears to be Tondelayo, who we know was in the city of CC and not below bedrock, so she must have come in here through a portal shard just recently - the other few archons most likely just came in with her.

    Charlie needs Ivan to fix the CC tower, still, so killing either him or Wanda is out of the question for him - too risky. As Thecommander236 said, please don't kill just Claud to make a point.

    At 5 million a pop, I want to say it would've been cheap for our dynamic duo to violate the truce again and destroy the doll back then, but... well, it probably wouldn't have prevented this outcome anyway - drawing Charlie's attention one time would've been all it takes, really.


    Last edited by Raziel on Wed May 10, 2017 6:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 114
     Post Posted: Wed May 10, 2017 12:05 am 
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    Dante wrote:
    ADB wrote:
    TheMilquetoastFool wrote:
    Croaking Wanda's worth the 5M Smuckers, is croaking our inglorious bastards worth it as well?


    Absolutely worth it.

    Not without knowing absolutely for sure if Decrypted can survive the attuned wielder's demise. Charlie could be looking at billions in payout. He could lose all his stuff, his gem stash, his city, his units, and become a prisoner in his own capital waiting to croak the next day when he can't cast Carnymancy to extend his own existence.


    Pretty easy way to get around this: Force Wanda to surrender to the MK casters. The MK casters execute Wanda, which maybe poofs all the decrypted into dust. Charlie avoids paying a penalty because the MK casters already resolved to execute Wanda so Charlie enabling them to do this doesn't trigger a contract violation.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 114
     Post Posted: Wed May 10, 2017 12:05 am 
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    Dante wrote:
    Not without knowing absolutely for sure if Decrypted can survive the attuned wielder's demise. Charlie could be looking at billions in payout. He could lose all his stuff, his gem stash, his city, his units, and become a prisoner in his own capital waiting to croak the next day when he can't cast Carnymancy to extend his own existence.


    The question is whether Claud and Ivan are worth it, and they absolutely are. They have WAY too much information that Charlie can't afford to get out.

    As far as Wanda goes, the possibility that the Decrypted all dust without her, and whether that would count as individual acts of material harm, is a pretty speculative line of theory. But even if that were the case, we know Charlie has ways of circumventing the meaning of the treaty; see Jillian taking Gobwin Knob.

    Or he could just pay the fee to capture Wanda, hold her for another 15 turns or so until the treaty expires, and shoot her then.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 114
     Post Posted: Wed May 10, 2017 12:06 am 
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    Arci wrote:
    How did we not see that one coming?

    I came close here

    contrabassist wrote:
    Really wild speculation about who took the stuff:

    A very special crew of Archons has been living in complete secrecy in another part of the tunnel complex built by Poe but unknown to him or Claud. Their names are remembered by none but Charlie and perhaps the Fox Force. They were considered too important to risk in the firefight at the portal.

    Or, perhaps, just a single Archon, who has lived in solitude underground for hundreds of turns, believing herself to be on a special mission for Charlie with promotion to Fox Force as her reward for success.


    Wow, this was quite a development, well told with art. Veils must really work really well to hold up for so long in such tight quarters.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 114
     Post Posted: Wed May 10, 2017 12:06 am 
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    How many threads do we now have? How many running and unresolved?

    I'd like to see some of these resolved soon rather than just be left hanging while we switch to another unresolved thread. Sure it's nice to see a twist but there are twists in so many threads and every thread is inching forwards.

    I know it'll all be easier to read when it's finished and in a compiled volume. It's fun to read and I've been reading a long time, but with each additional twist I'm wondering how many more before something is properly resolved.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 114
     Post Posted: Wed May 10, 2017 12:07 am 
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    Luitz wrote:
    http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/117

    What makes "surrender" a keyword vs. the "don't move, hands out to the sides"? Ugh, contract contrivances...

    Squishalot wrote:
    I believe it is Tondelayo, since the others have black hair. That's a helluva gamble by Charlie!

    Tondy from behind: http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/150


    And from the front http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/107


    If you "Surrender" you become a prisoner. "Don't move, hands out to the sides" is a voluntary restriction of your motion due to the threat of violence.

    It's a pretty big difference. The Stupidworld version would be a cop arresting you vs. a cop detaining you. The former is a big deal and means you're going to jail. The latter is a routine part of a traffic stop.


    Last edited by Axiom on Wed May 10, 2017 12:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 114
     Post Posted: Wed May 10, 2017 12:08 am 
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    Probably been said already, but doesn't the Deal of a Lifetime mean that Charlie cannot actually kill Wanda? Or have I grossly misread the DoaL?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 114
     Post Posted: Wed May 10, 2017 12:12 am 
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    ShaneTheBrain wrote:
    It might well be they are all alive primarily Charlie wants them alive to restore his Shocked connection.

    Even more subtle-

    Jillian did relay her assessment back to Charlie: "I don't think Wanda hates you- in fact she might even be willing to work for you. If I hadn't been under NDA I might have been able to turn her right now."

    So maybe Charlie doesn't want to waste a potential asset as good as Wanda, and wants to try to turn her to his side. Decryption would definitely force multiply everything Charlescomm has going on. Fly in with heavy hitting, veiling, hard-to-croak, low attrition, long range sniping archons. Decrypt everything they croak, add it to Charlescomm as zero upkeep troops. (Upkeep being one of Charlescomm's biggest bottlenecks only having the one city and highly expensive elite archon units, giant treasury or no.)

    Yeah, given Charlie _probably_ knows about them, getting these three as assets is probably why they are still alive. Worst case Charlie says "Eh, don't want to join me? Fine, for the low low price of 15 mil I deprive you as an asset to my enemies, make sure all the info know about me dies with you, I get the Arkenpliers, I get the Wonky Wrench, I'm a hero for stopping the dread escaped fugitive Mistress Firebaugh."

    That is pretty win-win as far as things go for Charlie. No need to eradicate them right away (although that would still be smart on the Evil Supervillian Rules), given he can gun them down pretty much whenever if they don't become assets for them.

    Charlie likes to take a win and turn it into a super win at the price of more risk a little too much. He tempts Fate every time he does this.


    I agree that Charlie's going to make a pitch to try to turn Wanda. I disagree that he would actually kill her if she refuses. For one, the Arkenpliers are in Spacerock. If he kills Wanda, then he risks someone else (someone worse for him) attuning and coming for his ass. Also, if he kills Wanda, he risks all the decrypted dusting and being on the hook for that.

    He'll either turn her over to the MK casters to get executed or he'll take the Wonky Wrench and trap Wanda under the bedrock, preventing her from reuniting with the Arkenpliers therefore neutralizing decryption.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 114
     Post Posted: Wed May 10, 2017 12:14 am 
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    I know if I were Wanda I'd be doing the math in my head.

    "They haven't shot me, so they probably can't, nor have they asked/told me to surrender, so they probably can't do that to me either.

    ...how high is our side's treasury again? Say, 5 archon's worth?"

    And I don't care about the arguments of Wanda only blowing the tower defenses, she's a NASTY caster when she puts her mind to it, just look at all the "known spells" in her wiki page.

    And isn't it fitting that she's already dressed for a funeral?

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     Post Posted: Wed May 10, 2017 12:18 am 
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    Thecommander236 wrote:
    Please don't kill Claud to make a point. Please don't kill Claud to make a point. Please don't kill Claud to make a point. Please don't kill Claud to make a point. Please don't kill Claud to make a point.


    Don't worry, they won't. He already died when the Thinkamancers killed him to make a point.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 114
     Post Posted: Wed May 10, 2017 12:19 am 
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    We're set up for a pretty big Loyalty test here.

    These three could possibly just Turn to Charlescomm.
    Claud and Ivan were inches away from doing that when they were String Cut by the Minds.
    Their will is now bound to Wanda's though. So what is her will?

    Wanda kind of already believes the Tools are Fated to be brought together.
    Jillian is already a cat's paw for Charlie, so Charlie could use them as bait for each other.
    Jillian already ruined one of Charlie's otherwise fine plans (Jillian's Air Force tips the tide of the Battle for Spacerock by hugely depleting the Dwagon Force, Through the Fire and Flames) because she loves Wanda. Charlie knows she has this thing for Wanda now.

    OR they could probably be captured in Ether-nets and just taken there as captives.
    Although I guess that counts as Imprisoning, 15 mil is cheap.
    We saw from Lillith what being interrogated by Charlie is like. Not good stuff.
    Are these three ending up as prisoners at Charlescomm? Kind of looks that way.
    Make's Parson's potential assault more interesting/risky.
    And if Wanda is captured, the ability to raise Bunny gets much further away- affecting Transylvito.

    The Contract doesn't last forever. So once it is out of turns, Charlie is free to execute Wanda and not be on the hook whether all the rest of the Decrypted dust or not.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 114
     Post Posted: Wed May 10, 2017 12:20 am 
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    Arci wrote:
    How did we not see that one coming?

    I believe that would be the veil... :D

    But seriously, I love just how terrified Wanda looks. Or more specifically doesn't.

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