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 Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 258
 Post Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 4:48 am 
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kaylasdad99 wrote:
Does everyone think that Roger has the ability to scry the people with Parson, and pick up on what they're saying? 'Cos I'm not so sure.


We are actually shown explicitly on this page that Roger can hear Parson's other conversations, because one of RVC's decision tree nodes is glommed onto Maggie's word bubble. He couldn't take it into consideration if he couldn't hear it.

[edit]Actually, you can make a lot of inferences about this conversation based on which word bubbles Maggie and RVC choose to include in their decision trees. RVC completely ignores Caesar, but Maggie links to each one of his interjections, but RVC does note Ben's comment. And the only thing both casters' decision trees have in common is the sentence "Maggie, Roger says a bomb went off at the temple." after Parson gets clearance from Clarence to let them know what happened.

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Last edited by zbeeblebrox on Sat May 06, 2017 4:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 258
     Post Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 4:51 am 
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    More thinkspace analysis:

    One point we can look at is the upright rectangle connected to the caster conversation. The conversation is a worldspace event that Roger is hearing, but is not speaking in, so he's not taking any action in that rectangle.

    The rectangle has a single line connected to it, which is only connected to a single circle. (It crosses a diamond, but does not connect to it.) The circle has multiple connections:

    • Line from our chosen rectangle (this is the brightest one)
    • Line from Roger's previous statement about the stay
    • Line to Roger's next statement about sealing the portals
    • Line from another diamond, which is connected to another upright rectangle and multiple off-panel points.

    Since the Roger's next line to Parson is directly related to the caster's conversation about sealing the portals, I believe this subset represents Roger's decision space specifically about what to say next. The circle appears to represent the decision point; the line from it to Roger's next statement can only be an output. So, the circle represents Roger weighing the caster conversation, the last thing he said himself, and considerations from elsewhere in his decision space (most likely his overall plan, hence his mention of coming in under veil), and using these factors to decide what to say to Parson.

    If this analysis is correct, we can infer that upright rectangles are input points and circles are decision points. Looking at his statement concerning the stay, we can see an even simpler example that seems to match this--the upright rectangle represents input from the halted execution, the circle is Roger's decision to share that information.

    That leaves diamonds and horizontal rectangles.

    All of the clearly visible diamonds have at least three lines connected to them. (There's one at the top of the caster conversation that I can't verify a third line on because of Buck's speech bubble.) This leads me to suspect that they just represent junction/branch points--places where inputs converge and outputs diverge.

    We don't (at first glance) have as many horizontal rectangles to analyze. However, all of them that I see are connected to a single line. I would hypothesize that they represent actions. With that in mind, I note that all the dialogue boxes are horizontal rectangles. However, other people's statements would obviously be inputs for Roger's decision space, so there may be no symbolic relation.

    To recap:
    • Vertical rectangle = input
    • Circle = decision
    • Diamond = junction
    • Horizontal rectangle = action

    If I'm correct, there is an unresolved decision point after Parson's last statement. It takes input from Parson's request to Caesar and from an input box that's on the line between Caesar and Ben's bandwidths, suggesting that the decision is awaiting input from Transylvito, which makes sense.

    Fodder for speculation: There is a single, unresolved decision point near the top of Parson-space. Its only input appears to be the line where Parson apologizes to Caesar, bowdlerizes his language, and asks if the destruction of the Temple is a secret. It does not appear to be related to Roger's decision to tell him that it's general knowledge, as a separate line goes into the mesh that Roger uses to decide his response.

    So, what is Roger trying to decide about that line from Parson?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 258
     Post Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 4:55 am 
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    I do wish Parson would remember to consult his bracer a bit more (it's especially galling since Benjamin was so much smarter about using it than him.) A simple "what are the chances letting this guy in will benefit our side or not?" would help him so much here.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 258
     Post Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 5:02 am 
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    ^^^^
    He can do that after ending the call. It would be impolite during.

    Balance wrote:
    More thinkspace analysis:

    [stuff about the shapes]


    I think it's safe to say the narrow rectangles are solved spaces. Notice how they're always at the tail ends of branches. Sort of like how in a flowchart for a program you'd have a rectangle shape set aside for modules, where a set of code is completed and then the results are inserted into your flow. Notice Roger doesn't include any of that conversation into his current decision tree - he's already completed a decision on it and is inserting that entire decision into the currently running tree.

    But I think you're right about the circles being Decisions.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 258
     Post Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 5:45 am 
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    I think Roger didnt buy Jojo´s bullshit about GK attacking the Temple. But knowing who attacked the Temple has zero importance for Roger because he only wants to kill Parson. Offering Parson such information for free serves Roger to fulfill the first part of his plan without setting himself on fire.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 258
     Post Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 6:08 am 
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    Raziel wrote:
    The Unlurked wrote:
    The last dialog bubble is missing.

    RVC: Jojo, set me on fire. For luck.


    The theory is sound, though! He could hug Parson for 3d4 per turn! Per. Turn.
    https://www.nuklearpower.com/2008/02/05 ... irelemons/


    Technically "set someone on fire" on fire also has the meaning that they "Spirited/cheer them up" that's why they say the "I'm on fire" when they are eager to do things. :)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 258
     Post Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 6:22 am 
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    kaylasdad99 wrote:
    I think my favorite line in this update is: "Gotti, one more and I light up!"


    This is foreshadowing! gotti will do one more, caesar will light up, throw the used match somewhere and hit with that Veiled RVC putting him on fire!

    All that building up is burning me!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 258
     Post Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 6:49 am 
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    That's so moe.
    Balance wrote:
    More thinkspace analysis:
    Not uncritically accepting all of it, but it's some good stuff.
    Balance wrote:
    One point we can look at is the upright rectangle connected to the caster conversation. The conversation is a worldspace event that Roger is hearing, but is not speaking in, so he's not taking any action in that rectangle.
    That fits with it being an accepted theorem which can be treated as a premise for further deduction. That would apply to results of a solved Decision space as well as direct observation.
    Balance wrote:
    Since the Roger's next line to Parson is directly related to the caster's conversation about sealing the portals, I believe this subset represents Roger's decision space specifically about what to say next. The circle appears to represent the decision point; the line from it to Roger's next statement can only be an output. So, the circle represents Roger weighing the caster conversation, the last thing he said himself, and considerations from elsewhere in his decision space (most likely his overall plan, hence his mention of coming in under veil), and using these factors to decide what to say to Parson.
    Yes, I'd tend to agree that asking permission to enter TV with Caesar's (and thus Parson's) knowledge is a decision point resulting from the current events in the MK and the analysis result of the rest of the conversation. It's interesting to me that Parson's early reactions are all inputs for Roger's decision space, but his later responses aren't. It's also interesting that Roger picks up Ben's response to the news that the GMTTA are pretty much wiped out. I think that suggests that the red waveform (and one of the early inputs is that circle on Parson's band after he first swears) is at least Roger spending juice to pick up on what Parson hears on his end. It was also suggestive of a polygraph or voice stress analysis, one of the mentioned powers of Master Thinkamancers.
    Balance wrote:
    Fodder for speculation: There is a single, unresolved decision point near the top of Parson-space. Its only input appears to be the line where Parson apologizes to Caesar, bowdlerizes his language, and asks if the destruction of the Temple is a secret. It does not appear to be related to Roger's decision to tell him that it's general knowledge, as a separate line goes into the mesh that Roger uses to decide his response.
    I'm pretty sure that there is a definite connection there, though, it's just partly obscured by the text bubble for the MK conversation.
    Balance wrote:
    So, what is Roger trying to decide about that line from Parson?
    I think obviously the big think Roger is trying to harvest from those four conversation points (and the connection to Parson's waveform band) is whether Parson and those with him are actually surprised by learning that the Temple has collapsed.

    I find it particularly interesting that RVC didn't attach anything to Parson's waveform band until after his initial reaction. That suggests that RVC was expecting a semi-scripted conversation in which both sides would be completely lying to each other, and he'd just need to play into Parson's script, but Parson convinced him that wasn't the case.

    I think it will be interesting to see what happens when Roger asks for Vanna to be released and finds out she's confirmed as an agent of Charlie, and was more responsible than Parson for the events leading to Don's croaking.

    It's been mentioned that the GMTTA knew which portal Parson escaped through. This means that their collide-a-scope spell only confused the senses of those in Portal Park, it didn't impede their own Lookamancy. But they apparently kept that secret, since Jojo bothers to tell RVC where Parson is.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 258
     Post Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 6:50 am 
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    You know, the funny thing about Rogger's vendetta against Parson is that Parson really didn't have anything to do with the fall of Uniroyal other beyond making sure GK survived TBoGK. Everything else was Ansom, and, through him, Wanda. If there is only one person Rogger should want to end, why is it Parson instead of Stanley?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 258
     Post Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 7:11 am 
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    Dremi wrote:
    :jetstone: I might just have missed it, but how can RVC know that Parson is in Transylvito when no one else does. If it's because Jojo tipped him off and he knows from Charlie, shouldn't this be a warning sign for Parson.

    Roger was part of the transfusion that casted collide-o-scope. They observed where Parson went. Dunno, how obvious this is for Parson...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 258
     Post Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 7:12 am 
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    Additionally, Bunny's death sent a report back to the Temple. Parson probably wouldn't know much about that either though.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 258
     Post Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 7:41 am 
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    Bunny, as a master Thinkamancer, could sense what Delta was feeling through a thinkagram, even when the archon tried to hide it. Roger is a master too, so he should be able to tell that Parson is feeling genuine surprise at the news of the Temple's destruction.

    The question is whether he stops to reevaluate his Decision, given this new information. I'm guessing he won't, because he's too emotionally invested in the outcome, but we'll see.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 258
     Post Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 7:49 am 
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    multilis wrote:
    Mecharic wrote:
    Anyone else want RVC to enter Transilvito, reach Parson, place his hand on Parson's chest, and then attempt to cut his string only to find he can't? "This usually works." (props to those who get the reference)

    But story wise, why would he? Has he been mind hacked so bad that he will be sure it is Parson who killed great minds even when evidence goes against?

    From what we know of Thinkograms from Bunny he probably has to consider good chance it was not Parson.

    So his decision space has to consider Charlie and Wanda and Unknown as the one he wants to avenge GMs on... the whole goal is to avenge great minds.

    Caprice wrote:
    "Roger's probably got Parson on "full talk", the other people in the TV war room on "basic talk", and he's got a parallel mental thread paying attention to the conversation happening in the physical world."


    From what I can see, Roger has a thinkogram only with Parson. Everyone else is through Parson's thinkspace so audio/visual of what Parson sees, while he has all sorts of channels into Parson to sense his motives/emotions.


    My2Cents wrote:
    I think that Rogers thinkamancy powers will let him know that Parson is being honest.


    To me Roger is the kind of guy to be playing both sides. A good thinkamancer would indeed gauge reactions and gather more inference by that than just by what he says. He gives Jojo a plausible reason for what he's doing so he doesn't go nuts with the crowd and tell everyone he's in cahoots with GK. I still think he's being cautious while not burning his bridges. Plus if he's out of MK he can avoid any battle that happens there.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 258
     Post Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 8:56 am 
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    DyolfKnip wrote:
    So it's not so much swear words as the words they don't use and have never learned, but magically know what they mean upon hearing the first time. By that metric, would "year" and "born" qualify?

    Roger does understand that killing Parson now would effectively hand Erfworld over to Charlie, right?


    I don't think those words would. In fact we had an update once where someone was puzzled by the word meaning 365 turns, but they weren't upset. I think they are offended by any word a game design company wouldn't put in a "children's" game they still wanted to be very violent. There's a lot of that in game design to work around the ratings laws, etc.


    Last edited by Skull the Troll on Tue May 09, 2017 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 258
     Post Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 9:09 am 
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    ObliqueFault wrote:
    Bunny, as a master Thinkamancer, could sense what Delta was feeling through a thinkagram, even when the archon tried to hide it. Roger is a master too, so he should be able to tell that Parson is feeling genuine surprise at the news of the Temple's destruction.

    The question is whether he stops to reevaluate his Decision, given this new information. I'm guessing he won't, because he's too emotionally invested in the outcome, but we'll see.


    If it becomes obvious that Charlie destroyed the temple, and Parson is genuinely concerned and wants to help the great minds, it could turn over Roger to Parson's side. And then Roger can bring Jojo over to their side as well.

    At the very least Roger might become convinced that Charlie is the greater threat and needs to be taken care of first, with Parson's help.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 258
     Post Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 9:21 am 
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    Turning to TV or GK here would also be Roger's best chance at securing the dish for himself or another surviving Mind.

    It's not surprising, but frankly he's not doing a very good job of advancing his agenda.

    Edit to add, A.V. Club would seem to be a natural choice for attuning to a Dish.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 258
     Post Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 9:31 am 
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    It could be that "Dead" and "Kill" carries with it a strange signamancy that aggravates those words further. Perhaps in an "atheistic" sense that they are more final; If you are dead you cease to exist and killing means to entirly end somone.

    Whereas "Croak" is a word native to the Erfworlders and carries with it the native-theistic interpretations that those that croak still exist in a sense that they are merely removed from the board and put somewhere else, like f.ex "back in the box" or to "the city of heroes".

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 258
     Post Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 9:51 am 
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    Just to pitch in on the tree discussion:
    I like how Maggie's and Phil's words line up...

    _
    Mysteryman64 wrote:
    Oh Roger,

    Are you playing Parson, Jojo, both of them? The story he tells Parson asking for refuge seems just as plausible as the story he told Jojo.

    But what does the inner Roger say?


    If he doesn't start to re-evaluate his decitions by now, I think he is playing himself..

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 258
     Post Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 10:14 am 
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    I like how even in Joe Spade's little icon his eye is still messed up. And Caesar's "yelling" icon works both times it's used because all he's doing is yelling at Parson.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 258
     Post Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 10:29 am 
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    Istaro wrote:
    Kepheren wrote:
    Oh dear. Rodger is scheming to get close enough to Parson to try and croak him.

    Although . . . why would he, if he doesn't actually think Parson blew up the Temple? ("Charlie is nothing if not thorough.")
    Or is it that the part of Roger speaking to Parson realizes the perpetrator was Charlie, but the part of Roger in the garden somehow still thinks it was Parson? It would seem weird for the garden Roger to be that dumb . . . unless he realizes that it was Charlie but still wants to kill Parson because "it takes two to tango" (i.e., none of this would have happened if Parson hadn't come to Erfworld . . . although that's the GM's fault, lol).


    I don't think that the part of him in the Garden is separate, anymore. There would be no point to it, with the Great Minds dead, it would be in his best interests to fully integrate his mind. And it really doesn't matter who blew up the temple. What matters is that the temple was blown up, and Parson is dangerous. He's more dangerous than Charlie, because Charlie isn't a Perfect Warlord. Charlescom could change the status quo. Parson is changing the status quo.

    And, most importantly, Charlescom didn't destroy Unaroyal. And Roger is much more loyal to Unaroyal than he ever was to the Great Minds.

    Knott wrote:
    It could be that "Dead" and "Kill" carries with it a strange signamancy that aggravates those words further. Perhaps in an "atheistic" sense that they are more final; If you are dead you cease to exist and killing means to entirly end somone.

    Whereas "Croak" is a word native to the Erfworlders and carries with it the native-theistic interpretations that those that croak still exist in a sense that they are merely removed from the board and put somewhere else, like f.ex "back in the box" or to "the city of heroes".


    I think it's more simple than that. You can't say "kill" or "die" on children's television, and Erfworld was designed to be a child-friendly game.

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