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 Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 109
 Post Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:17 pm 
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Dewey the Signamancer wrote:
Why does anyone other than Parson believe that he's in a coma? We literally saw him be teleported to Erfworld. :|


We've seen a lot of things.

And mostly I was putting together the idea of Charlie's own split mind during the dream scene, RVC splitting his mind via carnymancy linkup, and a small blurb in one of the recent pages mentioning how a "part" of a mind can be confused for a whole mind if you're not careful.

Putting those together and the concept that all the personalities in Erfworld might be part of Parson's mind just sorta made a little sense. But hey, it was just a hypothesis, an Earfworld hypothesis. :P

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 109
     Post Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:12 pm 
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    Arci wrote:
    Putting those together and the concept that all the personalities in Erfworld might be part of Parson's mind just sorta made a little sense. But hey, it was just a hypothesis, an Earfworld hypothesis. :P


    It would be a very banal revelation.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 109
     Post Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:18 pm 
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    greyknight wrote:
    I agree with the bit about Erfworld time not necessarily being related to Stupidworld time (it's one of the most common portal-to-a-magical-world tropes in existence, after all), but the Judyworld mystery goes beyond the passage of time. If The Wizard Of Oz was actually dictated to the author by Judy, then isn't it a bit of a stretch that she just happened to find an author by the name of L. F. Baum? Honestly I think the most likely explanation is that Judyworld is a different place from Stupidworld. Charlie's been able to observe into fictional universes via the Arkendish, so Judyworld being fictional relative to Stupidworld doesn't appear to be an obstacle.


    It's entirely possible that Signamancy works both ways, which would solve this issue.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 109
     Post Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:21 pm 
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    strange7person wrote:
    NoteToUrist wrote:
    Chris Goodwin wrote:
    I don't think her body did depop. Parson picking it up and having a burial probably counted as claiming it for those purposes. It's possible that the volcano eruption wiped it out, or made it inaccessible, but it's possible it could still be there in the City Formerly Known As Gobwin Knob, just waiting for Wanda to come and decrypt her.


    she probably would have been decrypted, and sensed, when Wanda did the Mass Decrypt after she got her hands on the 'pliers if that was the case.

    Ruler senses aren't perfect, and decrypted have no upkeep. Ivan and Claud were already speculating about the possibility of being stranded indefinitely under bedrock, and, not being a dirtamancer, Misty wouldn't even be able to dig through ordinary stone, or maybe even soil. If she was outside the garrison, somewhere in the remaining half of Gobwin Knob's tunnel zone when it was captured by Faq, she'd be a prisoner right now, but still have no upkeep, and again possibly go unnoticed. The Battle of Weatherbug showed that an attacking force could easily miss a single unit deep under cover.

    Misty wouldn't have gone crazy from sensory deprivation, in this "maximum fridge horror" scenario, because she's a lookamancer... but neither would she have had any apparent way to call for help. No gobwins means Sizemore would be the only one digging down there, and he'd have been concentrating on the gem pockets that were fresh on his mind, rather than deliberately poking at emotional wounds. Wider security perimeter overall, with Parson's optimization, almost certainly means there wouldn't be patrols roving at random in the tunnels to investigate suspicious knocking noises or whatnot.

    Since she'd be completely unguarded by Faq, she might technically be a fugitive at this point, with the ability to cast but still nowhere to go.

    I'm not 100% clear on the rules around city space, garrison etc, but if Misty was decrypted and trapped underground, wouldn't that prevent Faq from claiming Gobwin Knob? You need a city site to be clear of enemies before you can claim it, right?
    neko wrote:
    Shashakiro wrote:
    I didn't think of this before, but it seems to me that all this is all a major tactical blunder. Don't they understand that if Wanda and the Arkenpliers, neither of which are currently in Qualified custody, are permitted to reconnect, then GK instantly adds to its forces all of the late Great Minds? That means State 7, long-range string-cutting, etc, etc.

    Narrative considerations seem to make this unlikely to actually happen (it would give too much power to GK) but the fact that the Qualified are wasting their time with these tactically worthless prisoners is an astonishing failure of priorities, if you ask me.

    Why would they understand it? No one outside of the GMTTA knows what a State 7 is or long-range string-cutting, etc, etc. We as the readers know this b/c we read much of the story in literary narrative omniscient viewpoint. Each character only knows what they themselves know, from each of their own much more limited perspectives. Which is what makes the plot move and makes the story interesting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narration

    Keep in mind also that I don't think many people know about the ability to mass decrypt croaked units.
    Platonix wrote:
    Luitz wrote:
    I believe I may have overlooked the Pokemon Go signamancy... where can I find it?

    Just went back through the archives to find it again...it's on Page 216.

    Cheers, I was gonna ask for a link myself. :)

    (ps go Team Instinct!)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 109
     Post Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:32 pm 
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    Knavigator wrote:
    Hasn't Wanda decrypted from an Inferno before? The Battle of Dwagoncon? I can't remember the original name of the city.
    Wanda burned Motoroyal (grim laugh). It appears that infernos are guaranteed to croak all units that can't escape, but not necessarily incinerate the bodies beyond hope of decryption (I doubt an inferno can get worse than an uncroaked volcano, after all). No doubt at least some bodies were incinerated in both cases. Had the volcano not incinerated a significant majority of the bodies of the forces present at an around GK, the initial decrypted army Wanda created would have been truly enormous.

    I think that it there are a number of mechanisms that information can reach Erfworld from Stupidworld, the hypothesized Judyworld, and our world. Charlie's extra-universe channels have been mentioned, Parson (and Judy) being summoned has also been (implicitly, at least) mentioned. It is also possible that drawing such information from other worlds is a regular aspect of most Hocus Pocus or even all classes that involve the Life element.

    It is also possible that sound-effects and stuff are visually represented for our comprehension of the comic in a way that does not translate to them being observably present in Erfworld at all, Parson has never once commented on how he can now see visible sound effects with amusing references built in. It seems like the sort of thing that Parson would have mentioned. So the most likely inference is that a large number of the references are just Signamancy for our appreciation and do not affect Erfworld at all.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 109
     Post Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:22 pm 
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    strange7person wrote:
    NoteToUrist wrote:
    Chris Goodwin wrote:

    I don't think her body did depop. Parson picking it up and having a burial probably counted as claiming it for those purposes. It's possible that the volcano eruption wiped it out, or made it inaccessible, but it's possible it could still be there in the City Formerly Known As Gobwin Knob, just waiting for Wanda to come and decrypt her.


    she probably would have been decrypted, and sensed, when Wanda did the Mass Decrypt after she got her hands on the 'pliers if that was the case.

    Ruler senses aren't perfect, and decrypted have no upkeep. Ivan and Claud were already speculating about the possibility of being stranded indefinitely under bedrock, and, not being a dirtamancer, Misty wouldn't even be able to dig through ordinary stone, or maybe even soil. If she was outside the garrison, somewhere in the remaining half of Gobwin Knob's tunnel zone when it was captured by Faq, she'd be a prisoner right now, but still have no upkeep, and again possibly go unnoticed. The Battle of Weatherbug showed that an attacking force could easily miss a single unit deep under cover.

    Misty wouldn't have gone crazy from sensory deprivation, in this "maximum fridge horror" scenario, because she's a lookamancer... but neither would she have had any apparent way to call for help. No gobwins means Sizemore would be the only one digging down there, and he'd have been concentrating on the gem pockets that were fresh on his mind, rather than deliberately poking at emotional wounds. Wider security perimeter overall, with Parson's optimization, almost certainly means there wouldn't be patrols roving at random in the tunnels to investigate suspicious knocking noises or whatnot.

    Since she'd be completely unguarded by Faq, she might technically be a fugitive at this point, with the ability to cast but still nowhere to go.

    could she have gotten maggie's attention and a thinkagram at some point by thinking about maggie really hard?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 109
     Post Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:26 pm 
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    kaylasdad99 wrote:
    Platonix wrote:
    Luitz wrote:
    I believe I may have overlooked the Pokemon Go signamancy... where can I find it?

    Just went back through the archives to find it again...it's on Page 216.

    To be precise, it's the visual effect when Caesar sparks up his cigarette.


    So easy to overlook, wow. Thanks!

    Chiu ChunLing wrote:


    Amazing how that simple informative fact has become ever more vindictively pleasant with every update where Unaroyal is mentioned.

    In 219, Vanna's "then Bea and her subjects will have perished for nothing" met with Caesar's "Right well I can't help them saps"... just sounds so much warmer now.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 109
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:13 am 
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    Actually, now that I think about it, weren't they meant to be Blissed to death?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 109
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:04 am 
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    Knavigator wrote:
    Actually, now that I think about it, weren't they meant to be Blissed to death?

    Only Wanda, as per Janis.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 109
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:23 am 
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    Shard wrote:
    Knavigator wrote:
    Actually, now that I think about it, weren't they meant to be Blissed to death?

    Only Wanda, as per Janis.


    You'd think it'd be the other way round...though I guess a lot consider Decrypted Flesh Golems instead of people.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 109
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:31 am 
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    Dewey the Signamancer wrote:
    Why does anyone other than Parson believe that he's in a coma? We literally saw him be teleported to Erfworld. :|

    Or we saw him dream of being teleported to Erfworld. Possible he had a car accident on way home from work for example, trauma forgot that and everything else was part of dream. Story did hint at option of car accident from decryption of car and driving style.

    We could even have Parson after brain damage has mind split with barely functional real world side and the rest insane imagining he lives in erfworld.


    Last edited by multilis on Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 109
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:39 am 
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    multilis wrote:
    Arci wrote:
    Dewey the Signamancer wrote:
    Why does anyone other than Parson believe that he's in a coma? We literally saw him be teleported to Erfworld. :|

    Or we saw him dream of being teleported to Erfworld. Possible he had a car accident on way home from work for example, trauma forgot that and everything else was part of dream.


    I don't like the idea that the entire story is from Parson's psyche. I'd only seriously consider it if Parson showed some in-world knowledge that he shouldn't have access to...which he does...with Signamancy...boop.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 109
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:44 am 
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    Knavigator wrote:
    I don't like the idea that the entire story is from Parson's psyche. I'd only seriously consider it if Parson showed some in-world knowledge that he shouldn't have access to...which he does...with Signamancy...boop.

    There are lots of options including both our stupid world and erfworld are different universes in a bigger "matrix" computer simulation, and/or erfworld at some point is created by a version of Parson, and then populated with a different (earlier) version of Parson (not hard if Parson is really an AI with backup points)

    For all we know 100 billion years ago most of the stars in universe burned out and now most "life" resides in supercomputers orbitting the remaining red dwarf stars, running a simulation of the "good old days".

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 109
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:24 am 
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    Without exception, I am always utterly disgusted by "oh hey - this entire thing is the protagonist's imagination" theories.

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    I was hoping we could debate the meaning of "agent" in the the Declaration of Non-Aggression again. It totally hasn't been argued to death already.

    You know... at this point you boops aren't beating dead horses any more. You're making glue.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 109
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:11 am 
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    MerchLis wrote:
    It's entirely possible that Signamancy works both ways, which would solve this issue.


    Actually, this is a very useful and interesting observation. What if Judy's story had the Signamancy of the Wizard of Oz story not because she would later help create that book (or, rather, movie, because of some of the details), nor because it's a trick of Erfworld to make things "familiar" for Parson, but rather because Judy was summoned to live through the Wizard of Oz story (and causal link between it and the novelization/screen adaptation being entirely beside the point, possibly going either way)? This would mean that Parson would also be a hero of some story, for Erfworld to relive... and he actually is! Sure, Erfworld-the-comic isn't as famous as the Wizard of Oz book/movie, but it exists, it has certain popularity, it is being created - so what if Erfworld-the-story is meant to share the same relationship with Erfworld-the-comic-about-the-story as Judy's life in Erfworld with the Wizard of Oz book/movie? Such as, say, some authors on Earth or Stupidworld somehow can get limited "extrauniverse channels" (or even glimpses of such) and have created/are creating at the very least those two stories through that?

    That would be a weird if somewhat interesting way to remove the fourth wall and go meta - without any narratively unpleasant explanations like "the entire story is Parson's coma dream". The only problem with it that I see that it would need either Erworld-the-comic existing in Stupidworld, or even further differentiation between Earth and Stupidworld (which would probably create more problems than solve). Actually, Parson's friends are occasionally brought up in discussion, and they certainly were there when Parson snapped his fingers to get transported elsewhere - what if one of them had started writing a story in Stupidworld about Parson's adventures in a magical world elsewhere, and Parson eventually learns about it (from a frequently theorized short visit home, or from acquiring the 'Dish and attuning himself)?..

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 109
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:57 am 
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    I'm wondering about whether Janis' ability to conjure and control plant life is akin to Swamp Thing's, where the plants are just plants but are controlled by a sentient being, or whether the hedge and other bushes are a form of Flower Power and have an intrinsic pacifistic effect. It would make sense that she and other Hippiemancers could cast a much more limited and local form of Olive Branch's no-fighting spell for the purpose of MK law enforcement, effectively summoning up a mini-version of the Hippiemancer's Glade to temporarily plug into the landscape and quell whatever trouble has arisen. And given how much the current situation smells to high heaven (at least in Janis' view) it's not surprising she would pull such a move.

    As everyone knows: when something stinks, use a Glade plug-in.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 109
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:23 am 
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    Gyrate wrote:
    I'm wondering about whether Janis' ability to conjure and control plant life is akin to Swamp Thing's, where the plants are just plants but are controlled by a sentient being, or whether the hedge and other bushes are a form of Flower Power and have an intrinsic pacifistic effect. It would make sense that she and other Hippiemancers could cast a much more limited and local form of Olive Branch's no-fighting spell for the purpose of MK law enforcement, effectively summoning up a mini-version of the Hippiemancer's Glade to temporarily plug into the landscape and quell whatever trouble has arisen. And given how much the current situation smells to high heaven (at least in Janis' view) it's not surprising she would pull such a move.

    As everyone knows: when something stinks, use a Glade plug-in.

    Why not both?
    Maybe she can grow simple regular plants and shape them as she needs to, or conjure up specific plants with flower power effects.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 109
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:39 am 
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    Nikitian wrote:
    What if Judy's story had the Signamancy of the Wizard of Oz story not because she would later help create that book (or, rather, movie, because of some of the details), nor because it's a trick of Erfworld to make things "familiar" for Parson, but rather because Judy was summoned to live through the Wizard of Oz story (and causal link between it and the novelization/screen adaptation being entirely beside the point, possibly going either way)?


    Quote:
    The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.


    In my own mind, I tend to think of Erfworld/Stupidworld relationships along the lines of Stephen King's The Dark Tower series, F. Paul Wilson's Repairman Jack series, or Jerry Jay Carroll's Top Dog. It's a multiverse setup, but tied together by something other than just "but if the coin toss had come out the other way...", which is a common trope in pure science fiction.

    In the last two, the multiverse is basically a giant chess board between two warring "Powers", and the latest skirmishes are being fought out on Earth or Earth-adjacent realms. OTOH, in the Dark Tower series, all the worlds are bound together, and "echoes" between worlds are part of the mechanics of the setup, including having science and magic coexist.

    Just as a general framework in my own head, I agree that the influence might be in either direction (or both), and Parson could just be looking at it from a Stupidworld-centric point of view...

    ...or it's something completely different, and we may never know. That's the fun of it, isn't it?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 109
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:12 am 
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    Some other passing thoughts:

    - Various people mentioned the idea that someone might sneak behind the hedge and kill the remaining prisoners. Surely it's more likely that while Janis, Buck, et alia quibble out front, Wanda or someone else will liberate them all (which will be revealed only after the fact, for effect).

    - If Buck committed "magicide" (whatever that is) by shooting Shawn, wasn't the Donald "Hey!" Sutherland caster attempting similar magicide by attacking the decrypted Marie? Or are they fair game until captured, at which point everything must be done by the book?

    - We're assuming that Isaac's current form is some sort of Stage 7 hivemind mashed into one body and gone a bit loopy from shock. But it was implied at one point that a Jed-like entity had been previously created, with speculation that the GMTTA had done this with the Temple. What if that's what's in Isaac's head right now? :shock:

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 109
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:17 am 
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    nyysjan wrote:
    Gyrate wrote:
    As everyone knows: when something stinks, use a Glade plug-in.

    Why not both?
    Maybe she can grow simple regular plants and shape them as she needs to, or conjure up specific plants with flower power effects.

    I must confess that, while I was genuinely considering both options, the post was mostly an excuse to make a bad pun.

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