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 Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 108
 Post Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:30 pm 
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Dangit! This panel has me biting my nails. Common Lillith. Gotta survive.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 108
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:47 pm 
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    E is for Erfworld Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Year of the Dwagon Supporter This user has been published! Armored Dwagon Monthly Winner Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit This user got funny with a rodent Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter This user is a Tool! Mined 4 Erf Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day Won Mine4erf for the Gobwins Spades Suit Pip Erfmover Supporter Royal Scepter Supporter Sometimes They Even Fail
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    ADB wrote:
    Ansan Gotti wrote:
    The intentional homicide rate has been increasing in recent years, so it's north of 15K per year, now.


    Incorrect. It's been decreasing for the last 25 years, standing at 4.9 per 100,000 in 2015, compared to a rate of 9.8 per 100,000 in 1991.


    I've responded to you here:

    viewtopic.php?p=216873#p216873

    Summary: We're both right, especially if one reads my response carefully.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 108
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:01 pm 
    Year of the Dwagon Supporter This user is a Tool! Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter Mined 4 Erf For when you need it most Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day Erfmover Supporter Spades Suit Pip Arkenhammer Supporter Won Mine4erf for the Gobwins Royal Scepter Supporter Sometimes They Even Fail
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    houstinhobby wrote:
    TheDarkOne wrote:
    EpicCrab wrote:
    The pacing really isn't as slow as people like to say. Think about it in terms of updates, not time. If you look back at the last 30 pages, a lot has happened. In no particular order, Claud and Ivan were decrypted and have had their whole underground buddy comedy, Transylvito took Faq, the Great Minds were killed, Wanda escaped, Parson and Caesar defused the GK-TV drama bomb before it took off, Marie stormed ICFYS, and a lot of minor things that are necessary for other plot threads. The problem is that 30 pages translates to at most an hour of in-depth reading, but is a bit less than 4 months to release at 2 updates per week.

    I'm ok with the pacing when you look at it in terms of updates. When Book 3 is finished, this part of it shouldn't read like it has pacing problems, and I personally would rather have it be paced well when it's complete than insist that the story be compressed into fewer pages. I'm ok with 2 updates per week; the update schedule is more consistent now than I can remember since I started reading Erfworld, and I expect (from other webcomics I keep up with) that it would hurt the quality of each page and the story if they tried to put out a few more updates per week.

    I get that it's frustrating now, to come back every three or four days and see that the story jumped back to push another thread forward, but it all works holistically.


    All the things you listed happening in the last 30 pages is itself a pacing issue. I agree that reading book 3 cover to cover once it's finished will be a better experience but it will still have pacing issues and jump around too much. Rob jumped around a bit even in book one but with one battle space and a hand full of characters it worked but it has scaled horribly as the cast and locations expanded.

    And even if a finished book 3 reads better who cares, book sales aren't financing the site, pledges are.


    And MY pledge is going to a very well drawn, very well thought out, webcomic that posts at a pace I am comfortable with so I can get the quality I want.

    The comic is paced well, which to me is an impressive feat giving the number of characters. And yeah Rob jumps around, but that is the story.

    The pacing is fine. You seem to be worried about the update rate. Personally if I can get a good quality story then I don't care if the story takes several years to tell. Most good books take several years to write. What we see here is the natural format of a webcomic of this nature. If you want something that posts faster, pick up a news paper and read Garfield.


    As I said in my first post (which I cut out the quote of) The tools have spoken, per update pledges are up.

    I say pacing because​ of the jarring shifts of perspective and becuase every view point is being given its own time of each minor development. But I could also say the story lacks focus.

    Very little of what has happened this book has been Whoa moments, in stopping to show each character before they do anything we get an idea of where they are headed. Bunny was the last Whoa update for me.

    I have no problem with the 2 updates a weekend, I was a regular reader when updates were far less common then that. But the story was more focused and paced better.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 108
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:55 pm 
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    TheDarkOne wrote:
    As I said in my first post (which I cut out the quote of) The tools have spoken, per update pledges are up.

    I say pacing because​ of the jarring shifts of perspective and becuase every view point is being given its own time of each minor development. But I could also say the story lacks focus.

    Very little of what has happened this book has been Whoa moments, in stopping to show each character before they do anything we get an idea of where they are headed. Bunny was the last Whoa update for me.

    I have no problem with the 2 updates a weekend, I was a regular reader when updates were far less common then that. But the story was more focused and paced better.

    I think a big part of why this book is less focused is because fighting is easy but diplomacy is hard. Book 1 was essentially about 1 army vs 1 city. Book 2 was basically the same but in reverse and with some political shenanigans behind the scenes and in the MK. Book 3 is struggling because it has to do more than just show how Team A beats team B. Book 3 is cluttered because it has to set up a complete paradigm shift. The status quo of the MK is about to be shattered forever, Transylvito is getting a complete overhaul and is switching sides and Jetstone might also be set up for an alliance, Charlescomm goes from being the mysterious untouchable entity with who knows what hidden up its sleeve to getting punched right in the face but is also pulling out those hidden aces and shaking the whole world up in the process and finally GK and FAQ seem to be switching roles with GK losing a lot of its villainous Signamancy assets and handing them over to FAQ in the process.

    Basically the whole world is getting turned on its head and its taking a lot of work to show the process of all that happening so that the new status quo that will emerge after this won't feel like an asspull.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 108
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:05 pm 
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    For the record, I don't think the story/pacing/whatever is 'struggling'. I don't see a problem.

    I see (and love) the ongoing unfolding of the story.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 108
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:17 pm 
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    OneHugeTuck wrote:
    For the record, I don't think the story/pacing/whatever is 'struggling'. I don't see a problem.

    I see (and love) the ongoing unfolding of the story.


    You can't treat the pacing of a webcomic the same as the pacing of a book or physical comic. When you only read 2 pages a week, the goal is to pack meaning, or implications of meaning, into those pages. Essentially, it seems to me that the goal is to promote forum discussions about the comic.

    I guess that's what makes Signamancy brilliant; it's the reason to consider every detail no matter how seemingly unimportant it is to the immediate story.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 108
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:18 pm 
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    Okay, to boil down my view on what is "reasonable".

    When you make an argument that, in one part, appeals to one premise, and in another part, has to appeal to the exact opposite of that premise, that's not reasonable. I'm perfectly fine arguing from the premise that GK as a whole or just Wanda or just Parson are terrifying and OP. But when you start reasoning from one of those premises, you are no longer reasoning once you bridge part of your argument based on the idea that the premise on which the first part of your argument depends is untrue.

    This is what the MK keeps doing. They keep telling bogeyman stories about how terrifying and unstoppable and OP GK or Parson or Wanda are, then they turn around and ignore that all those stories apply equally to Charlie, or the GMTTA, or the Chiefs of Stuff, or the Predictamancers, or the Hippiemancers (I mean, think about this, and then consider that the Hippiemancers give free meals to help out lots of other casters...). Yes, Turnamancers can enable off-turn movement and some other neat tricks, so maybe the MK should have been prepared for a Carnied portal (really, it seems more correct at this point to assert that CC's portal uses Bad Dirtamancy). Dollamancers, Dirtamancers, and Croakamancers can create and lead units, and only the last of those is resource limited in the MK as long as peace prevails. Thinkamancers can remote cut strings (though I'm sure it costs juice, so even all 20-odd of the GMTTA back when there were that many would have trouble putting down a determined attempt to assault the Temple and kill them, they couldn't even maintain continuous surveillance of the Island if that's what they wanted to do). Barbarian Luckamancers can boost their own luck, and the effect probably works out like how Double Eagles work, they curse the boop out of someone else. Or they could team up with a Croakamancer led stack and ensure that all the hits got taken by the most decayed uncroaked in the stack.

    Predictamancers...Titan's Trousers the OP of multiple Predictamancers getting together and sharing their Predictions.

    In most of these cases, the MK reasons about the risks of these groups of caster without bridges that rely on the opposite hypothesis. Predictamancers have "Fate", but they are bound by it as much as anyone else. There are probably rules limiting how many (and how large) Dirtamancers and Dollamancers can make their golems before selling them outside the MK (it would make sense to say that casters in the MK aren't alllowed to make golems that wouldn't fit through a portal, it is hard to see a commercially legitimate reason to create something bigger than that). I'm sure those apply to Croakamancers too, though the limited availability of bodies and decay mechanics enforce certain limits anyway. There are restrictions on Dirtamancers making forts and such, and Eyemancers scrying, and fliers flying, and probably on a lot of other things that haven't been detailed.

    But the rules are made with an eye to the fact that they might have to apply to more than just one person and so there is usually a practical social contract negotiation going on. Yeah, it's unfair to have Lookamancers spying on everyone, but other means of surveillance should also be restricted for the same reason, so no flying, whether or not you've got the flight special (or can make items that confer it). I haven't noticed any Tannenbaums in the Glade or bunches of rock/crap golems in the Dirtamansion (don't tell me casters don't crap).

    But the rules being made and applied to Parson and Wanda (and GK) are bills of attainder. They are rules being made up to apply to specific entities and not being consistently applied to everyone else. That is to say, they are the exact opposite of "rules".

    Furthermore, the reasoning behind making these rules usually hinges on reasoning that involves both "this entity is super dangerous" and "we want to senselessly provoke them". In other words, you use the idea that Parson or Wanda is uniquely dangerous and impossible to control through ordinary counters to justify an unfriendly stance towards them. Then use this unfriendly stance to justify hostile actions that would only make sense if you were readily able to counter anything Parson or Wanda could do.

    That's the acme of unreason. That's why I compare it to saying that 2x2=6234.87641 so that you can generate infinite money. The motive for saying 2x2=6234.87641 is based on the fact that 2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x3+90.87641=6234.87641 as well (I mean, there are a lot of other ways to do it, but this one involves a bunch of 2x2's), so we can take 6234.87641 and turn it into vast multiples of itself, because:
    6234.87641=2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x3+90.87641
    =6234.87641x6234.87641x6234.87641x6234.87641x6234.87641x2x3+90.87641
    =56,531,498,312,047,667,421.164437701469=profit!!!

    Yes, I am using logic to get this result...but I am not using it reasonably because I am introducing a gross inconsistency in order to get a result I prefer to any result I could get without using contradictory premises.

    If Parson and Wanda are really so easy to counter that the MK can afford to continually be the ones that escalate things at every juncture, rather than ever attempting to negotiate, then the entire argument about them being an existential threat to the MK falls apart. On the other hand, if they are an existential threat to the MK that can't be held in check by ordinary balance of power then maybe the MK would have been wiser to adopt the stance of the Predictamancers, Hippiemancers, Thinkamancers, and whoever else is backing Parson, and try to influence Parson (and Wanda) by more friendly overtures rather than continuing to tick them off.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 108
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:32 pm 
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    Arci wrote:
    If being black is gonna get you gunned down for no reason in your state... you live in the wrong state. Because we basically don't have stories like that happening where I live. Not that it doesn't happen, but if it did then the media would be all over it, and they aren't.

    Which is part of what convinces me of how rare it is, is how often when it does happen, the media jumps all over it, because, get this, the media? they live off of sensationalism, and if something was an everyday occurrence, it wouldn't be sensational anymore. Ergo, being gunned down for shoplifting (regardless of race) is still fairly rare.


    Non-sequitur. Just because you hear about it in the news doesn't mean it's rare, just as if you don't hear about it does not mean it doesn't exist nor does it mean it's extremely commonplace. Have Hillary Clinton's e-mails become non-existent? Has unrest ceased to be a concern in Libya because Syria dominates the current news cycle? Are either points more or less newsworthy or important than they were just because they're out of cycle? Conversely, were they as important as they seemed just because the news was covering them?

    I once had an economics professor who insisted that American cars are more likely to be defective than Japanese cars because when she saw cars displayed in the mall all the American cars had drip pans placed under them whereas the Japanese cars didn't. I asked her if she ever saw an oil drip under either, and she said no. I posed the possibility that dealerships for American cars might just be more cautious with someone else's property, which she flat rejected in favor of her own hypothesis.

    I'm not attempting to argue either side of any of these issues, but I am posting this in an expression of frustration that we use extremely anecdotal evidence to inform our opinions on very important matters. The left says Blacks, statistically verifiable, get shot more often than Whites and Hispanics by the police. The right counters Black males, statistically verifiable, commit more crimes. The left counters Black males have the highest poverty and least job opportunity which, statistically verifiable, leads to crime. The right counters single parenting and lack of respect for education/social norms/etc, statistically verifiable, lead to lack of opportunity. On and on we can go with this, and there are grains of truth in all of it. Somewhere, when the whole picture is examined, is truth, and it exists whether the news is covering it or not.

    It's just not as simple as polling news coverage or snippets of statistics that only reveal one small part of the picture.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 108
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:58 pm 
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    Murasaki wrote:
    On and on we can go with this, and there are grains of truth in all of it. Somewhere, when the whole picture is examined, is truth, and it exists whether the news is covering it or not.


    This is some variation of the golden middle fallacy.

    Sometimes some people are right, and other people are wrong. And just because there's a bunch of people with different opinions doesn't mean you have to consider the bullshit views with any validity just because at the center of the bullshit may be something not completely wrong.

    For example: No, Black people are not inherently more criminal, immoral, and inferior to white people. You do not need to carefully withhold judgement and appreciate the grains of truth on both sides of the debate. It's a fairly disgusting example to pick, even.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 108
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:05 pm 
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    Yanno what Naughtymancy's other school of magic is (other than Retconjuration which no mortal can use)? Shockamancy. And hey, a lot of those Archons have some form of natural Shockamancy. Remember the Flash Mob? And Wanda's been seen using Shockamancy before, albeit through Scrolls rather than innate ability.

    So, the Decrypted Archon has the ability, but is currently bound. I could easily see Wanda using her Archon's ability to do Shockamancy for her, remotely through the link they share, to at least temporarily incapacitate the guy about to execute her. Then, in the ensuing chaos, our favorite Hippymancer decides to call a Time Out.

    Interestingly enough, Naughtymancy is Matter and Motion, but explicitly NOT Life, so I don't think a life-drain spell is going to be in the cards. For that, it would probably need to be Life and Matter but not Motion. Unless that gets Retconjured.

    I wonder if she can at least Uncroak the unit just shot, with her Archon to spot for her? That'd make things a bit interesting, wouldn't you think?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 108
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:07 pm 
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    quixotecoyote wrote:
    Murasaki wrote:
    On and on we can go with this, and there are grains of truth in all of it. Somewhere, when the whole picture is examined, is truth, and it exists whether the news is covering it or not.


    This is some variation of the golden middle fallacy.



    Wrong. Read it again. I am not expressing a "golden middle fallacy", just frustration at the OP's lack of reasonable evidence supporting a simplistic point of view. My examples of left and right were an attempt to point out the situation is much broader and more real than the surreality the OP's statement about news coverage implies. Put simply, it is a false conclusion to say the unjust shooting of unarmed black men is rare and, by the OP's implication, can be safely ignored, when it's a real issue and the 'sensational' result has deep and persistent roots.

    Edit: and for the record, philosophically I lend much more to 'nurture' than 'nature'. From your response, I glean you and I are not in disagreement on that part. Social justice, economic justice, environmental justice, and a level playing field where people are "judged... by the content of their character" to quote Dr King would solve pretty much all our problems, if we can ever get there from here and not keep taking steps backwards like we have recently. My only caveat is that I just don't expect the police to respond to crime by heavily patrolling where crime is low (duly noted, however, that heavy patrolling skews statistics on crime. YES, IT'S COMPLICATED. That's my point).

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    Last edited by Murasaki on Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 108
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:45 pm 
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    Murasaki wrote:
    I'm not attempting to argue either side of any of these issues, but I am posting this in an expression of frustration that we use extremely anecdotal evidence to inform our opinions on very important matters. The left says Blacks, statistically verifiable, get shot more often than Whites and Hispanics by the police. The right counters Black males, statistically verifiable, commit more crimes. The left counters Black males have the highest poverty and least job opportunity which, statistically verifiable, leads to crime. The right counters single parenting and lack of respect for education/social norms/etc, statistically verifiable, lead to lack of opportunity. On and on we can go with this, and there are grains of truth in all of it. Somewhere, when the whole picture is examined, is truth, and it exists whether the news is covering it or not.
    I'm not going to dignify the misrepresentation of your views someone else posted with a response, but I am going to add that there are branches at each of those counters.

    For instance, some people will say that the statistics about who gets shot are unreliable or faked, or that shooting isn't the only harm inflicted by police or other civil institutions, and those other forms of discrimination balance out or overbalance the tiny increase in the chance of getting shot by police (rather than otherwise injured or killed as a result of official or unofficial discrimination). Likewise, the notion that one race gets convicted of more crimes because of lack of economic opportunities and such is only one counter to the counter that one race commits a disproportionate amount of crime, there is also the counter that the disproportionate convictions result from systematic prejudice in the courts or the making of laws with disparate impact on a particular culture. The counter counter counter about family structure and socialization could be replaced with one about social spending dependency and perverse incentives or with regulations limiting businesses from providing employment opportunities.

    Those branches lead to different counter-counters (and counter counter-counters). If there are only three counters to the first point, and only three counter-counters to each of those counters, and only three counter counter-counters to each of those, then in a very short exchange we're looking at 27 totally different arguments about the same thing. And there's way more than three counters to any point or counterpoint. I just picked a couple of alternatives off the top of my head for each. Sure, at some point those counters start to overlap and reinforce (or contradict and cancel out), but it's not even as simple as a "point/counterpoint" argument.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 108
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:46 pm 
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    Drest wrote:
    Not sure if it has already been said, but the death of lilith would be a good time to show what it means to "kill someone fated", and getting someone or something several times worse.

    You mean like Bonnie?

    (joke)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 108
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:39 pm 
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    Woomod wrote:
    Luitz wrote:
    Like imposing restrictions on one Side to favour another? Beginning of Book 2, with the Healing Scrolls, the "Wanda not welcome", etc... that is prior to any further incursion into the MK after Parson first came in, accidentally. The MK plays favourites, and by doing so step on their own Neutrality. It then ends up being a "neener neener, I can do what I want and you can't get to me!"...


    Sure but it's not like the healomancers said "We won't sell healing scrolls to gobwin knob." it was individual healomancers saying that. The MK is not exactly heavily governed, it's citizens have a great deal of license to act independently.

    Would it be better for everyone if the clevermancers made sure to have a stock of healomancy scrolls they sold at a fixed rate? Probably. But we know nothing at all about clevermancer culture and government, and thus whether it would be feasible to enforce let alone suggest such a system.


    We don't really know why exactly the healing scrolls were scarce for GK; while I personally lean towards the Medical Board (my attempted name for the "rulers" of Healomancy) being mostly made up of Royalists and them pressuring other Healomancers into not selling to GK, I have nothing to back up this claim.

    However, if the MK states that they are a neutral place as a whole, they must have enough of an overarching structure to make sure that they are neutral, and not only in a sense of "no trespassers". It's like the Red Cross. They are neutral, they must treat everyone. That's an integral part of their neutrality. If they suddenly stop treating one side, they stop being neutral...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 108
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:15 pm 
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    Chiu ChunLing wrote:
    Here's an analogy that actually works.


    Even if there weren't various other flaws present (which I won't bother to point out), it doesn't change the conclusion for me, thanks to this part:

    Quote:
    The ET is annoyed by this and, when a later occasion to travel through our airspace (to attack another nation that has more openly been at war with it's society) presents itself as convenient, the ET says, "whatever, they made that stupid rule just to screw with me, it has no other purpose, so I'm not going to follow it."


    Even entirely within the bounds of your own analogy, the ET is squarely to blame here in my view, and indeed the island nation is well within its rights to treat the ET as an invader and an antagonist from this point forward. It may be unwise for the nation do so on account of the ET's considerable military power, but the idea that it can be considered the initial "aggressor" in some neutral sense simply because the ET feels justified in disregarding its rules is patently absurd. The argument of "I think the rules/laws of your society are unfair, so I'll go ahead break them at my convenience" is unpersuasive on its face.

    Quote:
    So who's fault is this?


    Thanks to the above, the ET carries quite a bit of the blame. I won't attempt to try to assign amounts (because I do think MK did some very foolish things), but if your analogy was constructed to make the MK appear to be entirely at fault, it sure didn't work for me.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 108
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:49 pm 
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    Shashakiro wrote:
    The argument of "I think the rules/laws of your society are unfair, so I'll go ahead break them at my convenience" is unpersuasive on its face.
    Since that is the founding argument of every civilized society in existence at this point, how is it that you don't live in a state of nature?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 108
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:50 pm 
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    Shashakiro wrote:
    Chiu ChunLing wrote:
    Here's an analogy that actually works.


    Even if there weren't various other flaws present (which I won't bother to point out), it doesn't change the conclusion for me, thanks to this part:

    Quote:
    The ET is annoyed by this and, when a later occasion to travel through our airspace (to attack another nation that has more openly been at war with it's society) presents itself as convenient, the ET says, "whatever, they made that stupid rule just to screw with me, it has no other purpose, so I'm not going to follow it."


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    Even entirely within the bounds of your own analogy, the ET is squarely to blame here in my view, and indeed the island nation is well within its rights to treat the ET as an invader and an antagonist from this point forward. It may be unwise for the nation do so on account of the ET's considerable military power, but the idea that it can be considered the initial "aggressor" in some neutral sense simply because the ET feels justified in disregarding its rules is patently absurd. The argument of "I think the rules/laws of your society are unfair, so I'll go ahead break them at my convenience" is unpersuasive on its face.

    Quote:
    So who's fault is this?


    Thanks to the above, the ET carries quite a bit of the blame. I won't attempt to try to assign amounts (because I do think MK did some very foolish things), but if your analogy was constructed to make the MK appear to be entirely at fault, it sure didn't work for me.


    Actually the analogy he used fails from the word go because it complete ignores the most important reasons that the Free Casters are doing what they are doing. I could make Hitler into a hero and Great Britain/USA the villains of WWII if I just ignored Hitler's policies at home and the fact that he was the aggressor. It's really easy to flip everything on it's head when you ignore critically important details. Doesn't make one's conclusions valid though.

    JadedDragoon wrote:
    Bottom line, the MKs right to neutrality... and the sovereignty that requires... is one and the same as the Free Casters right to live. Any side having the ability to bring enough units into the MK to take it over is inherently a threat upon the Free Caster's right to live. Any assessment of what constitutes reasonable response by the Free Casters starts from this understanding.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 108
     Post Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:04 am 
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    JadedDragoon wrote:
    Bottom line, the MKs right to neutrality... and the sovereignty that requires... is one and the same as the Free Casters right to live.


    This is ERFworld...there are no rights.

    Has any in comic character mentioned the word/concept?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 108
     Post Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:12 am 
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    OneHugeTuck wrote:
    JadedDragoon wrote:
    Bottom line, the MKs right to neutrality... and the sovereignty that requires... is one and the same as the Free Casters right to live.


    This is ERFworld...there are no rights.

    Has any in comic character mentioned the word/concept?


    I'm well aware that this is Erfworld. I'm well aware that Erfworld follows different rules. My entire point is that Erfworld follows different rules. But no... people wanting to live is not one of those differences. They do want to live. They have shown than.

    JadedDragoon wrote:
    Bottom line, the MKs ability to remain neutral... and the sovereignty that requires... is one and the same as the Free Casters ability to live.


    Does this work better? I find it incredibly irritating to deal with arguments that do not address the concepts I am describing but instead focus on surface details that change nothing. Regardless I can admit "right" is _possibly_ the wrong word. Largely cause I'm not going to get into a semantics debate about what a right is or a philosophical one about where rights come from right now.

    EDIT: I'm taking a break. I'm clearly on a short fuse atm.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 108
     Post Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:25 am 
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    Chiu ChunLing wrote:
    This is what the MK keeps doing. They keep telling bogeyman stories about how terrifying and unstoppable and OP GK or Parson or Wanda are, then they turn around and ignore that all those stories apply equally to Charlie, or the GMTTA, or the Chiefs of Stuff, or the Predictamancers, or the Hippiemancers (I mean, think about this, and then consider that the Hippiemancers give free meals to help out lots of other casters...). Yes, Turnamancers can enable off-turn movement and some other neat tricks, so maybe the MK should have been prepared for a Carnied portal (really, it seems more correct at this point to assert that CC's portal uses Bad Dirtamancy). Dollamancers, Dirtamancers, and Croakamancers can create and lead units, and only the last of those is resource limited in the MK as long as peace prevails. Thinkamancers can remote cut strings (though I'm sure it costs juice, so even all 20-odd of the GMTTA back when there were that many would have trouble putting down a determined attempt to assault the Temple and kill them, they couldn't even maintain continuous surveillance of the Island if that's what they wanted to do). Barbarian Luckamancers can boost their own luck, and the effect probably works out like how Double Eagles work, they curse the boop out of someone else. Or they could team up with a Croakamancer led stack and ensure that all the hits got taken by the most decayed uncroaked in the stack.

    Can you explain what you're getting at with that link? I don't see how the Hippiemancers are super scary from that.

    Additionally, when you say they ignore the scary stuff the various other magical disciplines can do, you have to remember a key point: they don't KNOW they can do that stuff. The various disciplines are incredibly secretive about their discipline. Hell, that's one of the main plot points of the story, the GMTTA want to protect their secrets, and Charlie threatens their secrecy. Stuff like being able to cut strings remotely in a state 7... when the states were first mentioned, it was explicitly stated that nobody except Thinkamancers are even aware of the concept of states, let alone the existence of state 6 and state 7 and the various powers that grants them. Again, you have to consider the perspective of individual residents in the MK, including what they do/do not know. We as readers know that the GMTTA are probably just as powerful as Charlie; nobody, except maybe Charlie, knows that outside of the GMTTA.

    Also regarding the trial being a farce or whatever... I think the trial was meant to be legitimate, except for the GMTTA trying to force a verdict that they wanted, and JoJo (on Charlie's behalf) trying to force a verdict that Charlie wanted. Carnymancers are all about manipulating people and situations, so why they're even allowed to participate in a trial I'm not sure. I guess maybe it wouldn't seem fair if Charlie didn't have a representative? And the Great Minds with their state 6 observational stuff seem to be potentially just as good as Carnies at manipulating people. So the trial was probably intended to be fair and legitimate, but it was corrupted by the two parties with their own interests and agendas.

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