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 Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:58 pm 
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Urf wrote:
Jesus f*ck.

I need to give Balder money.

Is Maggie at risk of becoming a Baddie?



I just had to cancel my toolshed membership last night as I am coming up on a 6 week break with no pay and will jump back on when that break is over but this update is so good I am thinking of trying to re work my budget.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:59 pm 
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    Now I have to go back and reread all the Bunny updates.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:00 pm 
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    *sigh*. Lots of emotions about this update. Was trying to find something coherent I wanted to talk about, and I kinda did.

    I'm impressived with both Ceasar and Bunny here.

    Ceasar, because he let Bunny decide the fate of the doll, rather than his own emotions. She knows more about the doll then he, things she cannot tell him, so letting the person with more information decide was smart.

    Bunny, because she recognizes that was a horrible thing that nevertheless could empower Maggie, if the doll is allowed to exist for some time longer. And so, she decides to let it exist, so that Maggie can gain something of value from this horribleness. I mean, optimally, it should be up to Maggie, but Bunny can't talk about it with Ceasar nor Maggie, so this is as good as she could possibly do.

    Good job them.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:03 pm 
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    No, the way I read this update; her real mistake, one that she really can't be blamed for, was that she didn't approach tGMtTA once she finally understood the extent of the possible absue that her first mistake could inflict upon her.

    Because in her experience and state of mind, why would she? She had approached them with a smile and ambition. She had, in her current understanding, done a great discovery that would advance Thinkamancy and make the Great Minds acknowledge her. But instead she had been given a stern and severe warning. Her ambitious feat had been utterly rejected by her peers; people she looked up to, that she to some extent trusted beyond the borders of sides.

    Noone really truly understands what happens in a link-up unless they have an extra thinkamancer that can observe it or if the link contains only thinkamancers. Pleading her case back then about her discoverey was actually greatly lacking in information about what exactly what she had done. So the Minds likely didn't have enough information to know what she really had created and much less have any information on how sick Bill really was.

    Now broken and abused, and with the previous experience in mind, would she be able to trust that her peers would do differently this time? That they would help her resolve her situation and not just add another load to her suffering? Or would she trust her Loved One more?

    The Great Minds that Think Alike is a collective of people with a whole specter of ideas and opinions that form an eventual consensus. Do you beleive that they would still have utterly condemed her to suffer for a young one's ambitious mistake if she had approached them again with all this new information? As an outside observer/reader I beleive that the Minds would reach a releiving majority consensus. Bunny however, was too scarred, exhausted and in Love to reach the same conclusion. :(

    Erf psychology isn't that much different from our own.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:04 pm 
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    Syrup Roast wrote:
    So are we expecting Jack to have overheard Bill's story?


    I'm wondering that myself. It would depend entirely on how big TV's dungeons are and how close Bill's cell was to the GK prisoners. I guess we'll know if Parson starts raging out.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:05 pm 
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    happyturtle wrote:
    The Great Minds violated Bunny worse than Bill did.

    And I didn't think I could despise them more.


    They'll probably have an update like this which explains why they feel that all this is necessary. :D

    Probably something like Charlie tried to take over the world and almost succeeded.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:06 pm 
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    I am SO SO SO proud of Bunny....she's honestly phenomenal. Clearly very clever and inquisitive to have discovered this magic before she was a Master. Incredibly strong to weather Bill's abuse and to then handle these secrets for years since then. And amazingly compassionate and brave to offer Maggie her support.

    This update convinces me that if TV survives Vanna, they'll end up as an ally of GK. Bunny knows what's up, Ceaser loves and trusts her, and Don knows her value. If she decides GK should be trusted, the others will follow suit.

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    GJC wrote:
    Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
    There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:07 pm 
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    Great update! So much new information.

    I'm thinking now that Bunny supported Don in the coup because this incident made her aware of Ponzie's true nature. When you think of who you'd rather have as a ruler, easy choice. It would only be made difficult by any remaining connection between the two.
    I"m still curious about the attempted coup though. What trigger Ponzie to try it, what made him think it would work. hmmm...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:07 pm 
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    "But since taking the doll's hand, she had been casting on it." [...] "She could tell that the prisoner could hear Caesar's voice, and feel the warmth of Bunny's own hand."

    I read this as saying that Bunny accelerated/facilitated Maggie's efforts to link to the doll and receive sensory signals from it. She did so without mentioning her efforts to Caesar. Subversive? What would Caesar say? What would Don say? Does Bunny feel a greater sense of duty/obligation to help Maggie - a fellow Thinkamancer - because of the suffering she herself endured at Bill's hands all those turns ago?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:11 pm 
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    It sounds like the pendant is a cursed item, making Bunny "bad"

    Also, I want to see Bill decrypted even more now, to see what he's like without the mental damage.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:11 pm 
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    neko wrote:
    If what I suspect about Bunny's interaction with the Maggie doll is correct, it will be interesting to see how Bunny will use what Maggie can sense though the strings as a hack to communicate with her somehow.


    I'm thinking that they will share a string rapport of some sort, gaining mutual empathy given their similar experiences being connected with dolls.

    Ultimately, Maggie will advocate for Bunny's baddie status to be removed.

    But, if there is going to be an alliance between GK and TV, it will come as a result of the upcoming interaction between Maggie and Bunny.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:12 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    That cannot be the case, because apparently Issac only "recently" discovered what Charlie was capable of and used his experiments to convince the other GMs that Charlie was a problem. The very fact that the other GMs existed at that time means the order predates knowledge of Charlie's abilities.


    Right, and the recency of the discovery also increases the likelihood that Bunny does NOT know Charlie can hack thinkagrams (which has been my own assumption for a while).

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:13 pm 
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    Nyetworker wrote:
    I read this as saying that Bunny accelerated/facilitated Maggie's efforts to link to the doll and receive sensory signals from it. She did so without mentioning her efforts to Caesar. Subversive? What would Caesar say? What would Don say? Does Bunny feel a greater sense of duty/obligation to help Maggie - a fellow Thinkamancer - because of the suffering she herself endured at Bill's hands all those turns ago?
    I think it is a combination of two factors.
    First is the compassionate element, of wanting to do right by Maggie and help her.
    Secondly, I think there is something smart and strategic about it. Bunny knows that she needs help, TV is in grave danger right now. She believes (correctly) that Maggie & Parson can help, but she knows that Ceasar and Don aren't ready to believe that. So she is acting on it alone, and hoping that the Prisoners will prove her right.

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    GJC wrote:
    Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
    There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:14 pm 
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    Well, looks like anyone who guessed that the Bunny doll was related to Bunny's Badness is going to have to go back and add spoiler tags to their posts.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:16 pm 
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    Ansan Gotti wrote:
    0beron wrote:
    That cannot be the case, because apparently Issac only "recently" discovered what Charlie was capable of and used his experiments to convince the other GMs that Charlie was a problem. The very fact that the other GMs existed at that time means the order predates knowledge of Charlie's abilities.
    Right, and the recency of the discovery also increases the likelihood that Bunny does NOT know Charlie can hack thinkagrams (which has been my own assumption for a while).
    She may not know about hacking, but she clearly knows something about the threat of Charlie, based on her conversation with Ceasar in the Situation Room a few updates back.
    Even if she knew about Hacking though, what could she possibly do about it? Her role as Thinkamancer depends on her coms abilities, she literally cannot speak, and she is also physically incapable of telling her side about Hacking. So she couldn't act any differently, she's forced to accept the possibility that Charlie is spying on her side.

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    GJC wrote:
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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:18 pm 
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    I'm with WarFan and other posters here who are puzzled about why Sides tolerate TGMttA's interference of Sided Thinkermancer's work.

    As an employer, if my employee belonged to a union/professional guild, I would be fine with that. But if his/her guild causes him to be less effective at his job, I would actually get mad and take it up with the guild. I wonder why hasn't any Side taken umbrage with TGMttA on this? Are TGMttA that powerful/feared by the Sides of Erfworld? hm.

    And relatedly, the Magic Kingdom really is kinda a weird construct, which I'm not sure all Sides would approve of. Again, as an employer, if I knew that all accountants of all companies had a shared accountant clubhouse they sometimes go to hang out at, I might well forbid my own accountants from ever going there (and perhaps some Sides forbid their casters from doing so). There's just so much conflict-of-interest and intrigue boop that could happen in such a space. Fraternising with (and possibly casting on/being casted on by) the enemy and all that. Again, if you were an employer, what would you think of this?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:20 pm 
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    Since we seem to be cataloguing where exactly Bunny went wrong, here's my take on it.

    First mistake: trusting Bill

    Second mistake: trusting the GMtTA

    Third mistake: trusting Ponzie

    Now of them were what she thought they were. It's a miracle that she ever trusted anybody again

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:21 pm 
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    Another interesting thing I got out of this update:

    Quote:
    Putting a Turnamancer here was prob'ly no accident, either. If she turned the right unit at the right time, it could be the whole battle. Maybe that target unit was the King. Or...maybe not. Half the units defending this city were Bill's golems and dolls.


    So it seems that Rulers can be Turned. Or at least affected by Turnamancy. And that Bill would be a potential high-value target, since this seems to imply that if Bill were Turned he could take his units with him. I wonder if Don considered this when he banned Vanna from the dungeons? (In addition to the obvious reason of keeping her from snooping the GK prisoners.)

    Also interesting that Caesar did not consider himself as a potential target.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:22 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    Ansan Gotti wrote:
    0beron wrote:
    That cannot be the case, because apparently Issac only "recently" discovered what Charlie was capable of and used his experiments to convince the other GMs that Charlie was a problem. The very fact that the other GMs existed at that time means the order predates knowledge of Charlie's abilities.
    Right, and the recency of the discovery also increases the likelihood that Bunny does NOT know Charlie can hack thinkagrams (which has been my own assumption for a while).

    She may not know about hacking, but she clearly knows something about the threat of Charlie, based on her conversation with Ceasar in the Situation Room a few updates back.
    Even if she knew about Hacking though, what could she possibly do about it? Her role as Thinkamancer depends on her coms abilities, she literally cannot speak, and she is also physically incapable of telling her side about Hacking. So she couldn't act any differently, she's forced to accept the possibility that Charlie is spying on her side.

    That's probably what she was talking about when she told Ceasar that Charlie is worse than he could imagine; Ceasar was just worried about how Charlie has the military might to steamroll Transylvito, when in reality his intel on the side, thanks to Bunny's presence, is so good he wouldn't even need to.

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    Last edited by Ozamataz Buckshank on Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 4 - Page 20
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:23 pm 
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    neko wrote:
    1) The GMtTA thought she betrayed them for "Reasons of Love" vs the reality of abuse. I sincerely hope that at some point Bunny gets to confront them with her Truth and they hang their heads in shame. Understanding that it's difficult (understatement) for someone being abused to seek help, I am so sad that Bunny didn't go to the GMtTA to let them know that one of their restrictions had created a loophole that enabled her abuse. The little faith I have left in humanity compels me to believe that they would have understood and adjusted the automagical restriction. That their restrictions just weren't fully thought through vs intentionally malicious.


    She did do it "for reasons of love". In her own words, she says she: "told Ponzie more than she had to". If she had told the minimum, maybe no more secrets would be 'in play' and she could remain under the warning condition, so long as the info doesn't spread the warning goes away.

    She didn't want to have any secrets from the one person she completely trusted. She put even more of their secrets out there than before, and for purely personal reasons. She could have ended the abuse with less Thinkamancy exposure, but chose not too. Need they may have been able to forgive, want does not reach the bar.

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