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 Post Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 2:51 pm 
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Miasmark wrote:
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These Royals In Name Only

Odd capitalization make me think this is a reference to something. acronym: TRINO RINO?


Republicans in name only, moderate republicans who are regarded as insufficiently republican. They're regarded as major annoyances to the party, since they frequently vote for the other side, and thus enable non republican legislation to go through in tightly contested situations, or prevent legislation from going through. The equivalent, DINOs (democrats in name only) are also quite common, especially now that democrats have a majority. They tend to crop up in major legislative battles, because the only way one party can gain a majority is by advancing candidates who are ideologically on the opposing side, ish, but in other ways supportive. If one side pushes them too hard on too many votes, they may defect to the other side.

Edit. If you follow the news- McCain was called a RINO for being economically liberal, despite being quite right wing on war and social issues. Stupak has been called a DINO for his pro life amendment- for being socially conservative, despite being economically liberal and liberal on war.


Last edited by Ytaker on Sun Jan 10, 2010 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 3:03 pm 
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    I don't think Slately could be decrypted. I am of the opinion that overlords unpop when they croak. If they didn't, why didn't Stanley have an uncroaked Saline IV at the time of Parson's summoning? If an overlord doesn't have a heir upon croaking, the whole side disbands, correct? Field units unpop, so i would imagine that the overlord's corpse unpops as well.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 3:51 pm 
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    Ninjaguineapig wrote:
    I don't think Slately could be decrypted. I am of the opinion that overlords unpop when they croak. If they didn't, why didn't Stanley have an uncroaked Saline IV at the time of Parson's summoning? If an overlord doesn't have a heir upon croaking, the whole side disbands, correct? Field units unpop, so i would imagine that the overlord's corpse unpops as well.


    Remember, the uncroak eventually decay and turn to dust... how much time you spend on making them determines how long they last, but all in all they still turn to dust eventually. So even if they did uncroak Saline IV he may have decayed and turned to dust many turns before Parson Arrived

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 3:52 pm 
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    I dunno. Queen Bea evaporated cause of the portal. Course is slately goes his side will be gone forever. What I want to know is if she can decrpy him what would he become? Still a ruler?

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 4:41 pm 
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    Overlord is a title, I think, like Chief Warlord. Overlords can step down, be deposed, etc. and no longer be Overlords (though if they only lost their side, they could go and start a new one and be Overlord of that side). If you decrypted Slately, you could set him up as an Overlord of a split-off side, but he would not be Overlord of a side by default.

    I think.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 4:46 pm 
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    Quote:
    And after Stanley had been running GK so peacefully and non-violently, never giving any side any reason to want to attack him either, apart from non-royal hate...

    Have you been paying attention to anything about the nature of Erfworld up to this point? Erfworld is a living strategy game, everything in it revolves around war. Attacking your neighbors is routine and entirely normal behavior for rulers. Summer text update 11 mentioned that Transylvito periodically conquers one of Carpool's cities and then either ransoms it back to them or razes it to the ground. In other words, "peaceful" and "non-violent" are two words that have no real meaning in Erfworld. As far as I can tell, aside from not being Royal, the only thing Stanley's done that's out of the ordinary is attuning to the Arkenhammer.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:17 pm 
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    Watsit Hoohow wrote:
    Overlord is a title, I think, like Chief Warlord. Overlords can step down, be deposed, etc. and no longer be Overlords (though if they only lost their side, they could go and start a new one and be Overlord of that side). If you decrypted Slately, you could set him up as an Overlord of a split-off side, but he would not be Overlord of a side by default.

    I think.


    I tend to disagree. Overlords can be killed, and their side continues only if they have an heir. When overlords die, their side ends.
    Deposing an overlord is probably impossible - units that disobey an order disband (i.e. cease to exist), so overthrowing an overlord seems near impossible.
    Overlord seems to be a unique position in Erfworld - they're the only units that no one else can tell what to do.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:20 pm 
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    Ninjaguineapig wrote:
    I don't think Slately could be decrypted. I am of the opinion that overlords unpop when they croak. If they didn't, why didn't Stanley have an uncroaked Saline IV at the time of Parson's summoning? If an overlord doesn't have a heir upon croaking, the whole side disbands, correct? Field units unpop, so i would imagine that the overlord's corpse unpops as well.


    Wow..... okay in order :

    1) We have no reason to think a croaked ruler/overlord automatically "depops". We've seen it happen to Jillian's father, and it didn't seem to apply.
    2) Its indicated that a turn had passed between Saline's death and Stanley's return. The corpse (if it wasn't destroyed by the Hobgobwins) would have "depopped" just like any other corpse.
    3) Some time had passed between Stanley retaking the city and Parson's summoning. An Uncroaked Saline (if he existed) would probably have fallen in battle.
    4) Even Stanley, moron that he is, megalomaniac that he is, WOULDN'T uncroak his own Ruler!

    :p

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:02 pm 
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    Hobgobwin wrote:
    Lord Kasavin wrote:
    I don't understand how anyone with a passing familiarity with the comic can type that without having an involuntary muscle spasm which ends their sentence with an emoticon. Stanely's track record makes him not only the original "tool," but the embodiement of the concept. Does he think he's better than everyone else? Yes. Does he put his own petty interests above not only his underlings interests, but their lives? Yes, yes he does.


    I partly have to disagree. Stanley doesn't think he is superior to others, he thinks he is inferior. He acts arrogant because he is insecure. I think Stanley's original Toolism was very self centred and simple and only had the message that Stanley is special. Ansom made it into something else, with a message for everybody. So Stanley is like Pharaoh Echnaton, and Ansom is like Paulus.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:23 pm 
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    Welf von Ehrwald wrote:
    I partly have to disagree. Stanley doesn't think he is superior to others, he thinks he is inferior. He acts arrogant because he is insecure. I think Stanley's original Toolism was very self centred and simple and only had the message that Stanley is special. Ansom made it into something else, with a message for everybody. So Stanley is like Pharaoh Echnaton, and Ansom is like Paulus.

    Also, it's worth remembering that Stanley was not trying to conquer the world, either. He was just trying to collect the Arkentools. If he'd been out to conquer, he'd probably have done a better job of it (focused attacks on a particular side he was trying to assimilate). Instead, he had to send forces deep into the territory of many other sides, in order to hunt for the other Tools.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:30 pm 
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    MarbitChow wrote:
    Overlords can be killed, and their side continues only if they have an heir. When overlords die, their side ends.


    Well, when the heir takes over, they are no longer the Overlord. Yes? Anyhow, even if having an Overlord is necessary to having a side, it doesn't mean that Overlord is an inherent attribute of the Overlord. Just that they happen to be the Overlord. Like Chief Warlord, they are affected by their job.

    Quote:
    Deposing an overlord is probably impossible - units that disobey an order disband (i.e. cease to exist), so overthrowing an overlord seems near impossible.


    Assuming the existence of an heir, it is actually possible to overthrow an Overlord. Don King's heir once tried to usurp the throne (low loyalty?) and the Gobwin Rebellion (natural ally rebellion) took care of Saline pretty tidiy.

    Quote:
    Overlord seems to be a unique position in Erfworld - they're the only units that no one else can tell what to do.


    Overlord is a unique position, but it's just that: a position. No longer Overlord means no longer an Overlord. Sure you might qualify as a Barbarian Warlord, but you are not an Overlord if you are not heading up a side at any given time.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:54 pm 
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    fractal wrote:
    Welf von Ehrwald wrote:
    I partly have to disagree. Stanley doesn't think he is superior to others, he thinks he is inferior. He acts arrogant because he is insecure. I think Stanley's original Toolism was very self centred and simple and only had the message that Stanley is special. Ansom made it into something else, with a message for everybody. So Stanley is like Pharaoh Echnaton, and Ansom is like Paulus.

    Also, it's worth remembering that Stanley was not trying to conquer the world, either. He was just trying to collect the Arkentools. If he'd been out to conquer, he'd probably have done a better job of it (focused attacks on a particular side he was trying to assimilate). Instead, he had to send forces deep into the territory of many other sides, in order to hunt for the other Tools.


    Strange that he only croaked some Jetstone field units, then.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:03 pm 
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    Regarding the King Under the Mountain mythos, several of the kings on the list DID get overwhelmed in battle with barbarians.

    Arthur was wounded unto death by Mordred in the greatest battle of the Arthurian age. Part of the mythos is that instead of dying, the Mountain King is whisked off the field in their last battle, to return in their land's most dire need.

    One of the things to keep in mind about the mythos is that it is about people being loyal to, and longing for, a dead king, a dead dynasty, and presumably therefore being somewhat disenchanted with the CURRENT dynasty. It is a safe-ish way to speak of disloyalty to one's Overlord, to talk of the Return of the King in the land's greatest need, because one can always piously claim that one was speaking of some hypothetical Distant time.

    One of the things about having Heirs in Erfworld is that it is about the leader of a side thinking there is something SO important about themselves, about how they see the world, that they would have it continue after their death. They don't want to be judged just on their OWN deeds in the Hall of Heroes, but those of their successors as well.

    Perhaps he hopes to be looked at as a King Arthur type, the symbol that will rally the Royalists to better cooperation. He accurately sees that one of the things that has hobbled the Royalist side is that any Royal that totally commits to the coalition will be very vulnerable to their opportunist neighbors. It seems that there are long histories of antagonism between various sides, with multitudinous wars over the turns, in part because of the VERY great difficulties involved in actually taking out a capitol. I envision the "Royals" more like feuding barons and counts, each with their own castle to hide in.

    But war has changed in Erfworld. Instead of trading border cities back and forth for hundreds of turns, entire sides are getting wiped out. Many of the Mountain King myths also date to times when warfare changed significantly. I don't think that Slately's idea of a subservient Court, lavishly backing up Royals with courtly manners and ritual can really stand up to a world where Capitols aren't inviolate in the push and shove of wars. The petty wars which are little more than means of getting status in Royal Courts are poor training for the all out war that Parson is likely to bring to Erfworld.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:20 pm 
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    theseus2x wrote:
    Knight13 wrote:
    Slately threw an army at Stanley, led by his own son, just because he didn't like how Stanley came to power.


    Now, in fairness, we have been told that GK was running around attacking sides with no rhyme or reason (conquest, finding other Arkentools), including (we presume) Jetstone. That was the main provocation for assembling the RCC1.
    In real fairness, Vinny already called Ansom on this point long ago. Stanley killed a couple of Jetstone scouting units, in what Vinny at least was very willing to chalk up to rather typical behavior and not a provocation calling for Jetstone to build the RCC to go try to curb stomp that uppity non-noble who has managed to grow too big for his non-royal britches. This is described by Parson, learned in his talks with Sizemore, as very typical royal behavior: Gang up to wipe out any non-royal who builds a side up to a noticeable level. Vinny was realist enough to know exactly what was going on, Ansom was made uncomfortable by the discussion and shut it down. But then Vinny is a warlord of a side which had been putting royalty second to results for a long while. And Ansom was a fully brainwashed royal, arrogant in his superiority complex for being a royal, as was clearly shown when he blew up at Parson for calling royalty obsolete.

    The strip shows the pervasiveness of royalty, as even non-royals such as Parson and Wanda are called "Lord" and "Lady" by units subordinate to them. These are noble titles in our own world, not merely terms of respect.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:51 pm 
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    Sieggy wrote:
    As for criticism, look at it like this - we're all guests in Rob's room, he's providing the decor and the entertainment, and unless you're a Tool, it's not costing you anything. It ill behoove anyone to gripe about what is essentially a free gift. Don't like it? Right click the icon, click >delete<, click >OK< and that's it.
    Not quite. This isn't a private party, where being rude to your host would just be...rude. This is a public party, and the authors by default have welcomed all commentary by putting up an open forum and setting the rules of conduct as they have set them.

    Frankly, if the authors aren't going to censor negative feedback, then neither should some other random guest think that they have a need to, either. But I still understand that hearing criticism about something that you like hurts, since it is criticism of your own views by association.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:34 pm 
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    Oberon wrote:
    In real fairness, Vinny already called Ansom on this point long ago. Stanley killed a couple of Jetstone scouting units, in what Vinny at least was very willing to chalk up to rather typical behavior and not a provocation calling for Jetstone to build the RCC to go try to curb stomp that uppity non-noble who has managed to grow too big for his non-royal britches. This is described by Parson, learned in his talks with Sizemore, as very typical royal behavior: Gang up to wipe out any non-royal who builds a side up to a noticeable level. Vinny was realist enough to know exactly what was going on, Ansom was made uncomfortable by the discussion and shut it down. But then Vinny is a warlord of a side which had been putting royalty second to results for a long while. And Ansom was a fully brainwashed royal, arrogant in his superiority complex for being a royal, as was clearly shown when he blew up at Parson for calling royalty obsolete.

    The strip shows the pervasiveness of royalty, as even non-royals such as Parson and Wanda are called "Lord" and "Lady" by units subordinate to them. These are noble titles in our own world, not merely terms of respect.


    Jetstone had the Arkenpliers, and took their custodianship seriously. Stanley's wars were a quest for the Arkentools. That's strong casus belli for Jetstone.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:44 pm 
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    I'm no longer entirely convinced that Stanley himself is particularly anti-royal so much as just desirous of being respected as at least an equal to the royals. His first act upon returning to GK was to replace Parson with Ansom because Ansom seemed to fit better with his idea of what a Chief Warlord should be, and he seemed especially delighted with Ossomer's turning because it was another prince in his army. Come to think of it, way back in the beginning, Wanda practically had to beg him to pick a new chief warlord based on merit rather than on how much the new guy looked the part. I suspect Stanley would be perfectly fine with royalism if the other royals accepted that someone attuned to an Arkentool was at least a peer to the other kings.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 12:19 am 
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    Flyer wrote:
    As an overfed long-haired leaping gnome, I must comment on the "Hall of the Mountain King" King Slately mentioned - since I haven't seen anyone else bring up this point.....

    Spill the Wine ..and take that pearl....

    am I going crazy or is this just a dream?

    Flyer


    Eric Burdon and WAR "Spill the Wine"


    Yeah. I always hated that song. Also, i always thought it was "dig that girl".

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     Post Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 12:20 am 
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    Absolutely, Stanley's entire psyche is built around his insecurity.

    Look at how Stanley treats Ansom : He practically worships him despite being in a superior position. Ansom is everything Stanley has ever wanted to be.

    However : All that is subconscious. Stanley will never ADMIT to anyone, even himself, that he's a bully because of his insecurity.

    Welf von Ehrwald wrote:
    Hobgobwin wrote:
    Lord Kasavin wrote:
    I don't understand how anyone with a passing familiarity with the comic can type that without having an involuntary muscle spasm which ends their sentence with an emoticon. Stanely's track record makes him not only the original "tool," but the embodiement of the concept. Does he think he's better than everyone else? Yes. Does he put his own petty interests above not only his underlings interests, but their lives? Yes, yes he does.


    I partly have to disagree. Stanley doesn't think he is superior to others, he thinks he is inferior. He acts arrogant because he is insecure. I think Stanley's original Toolism was very self centred and simple and only had the message that Stanley is special. Ansom made it into something else, with a message for everybody. So Stanley is like Pharaoh Echnaton, and Ansom is like Paulus.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:17 am 
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    MonteCristo wrote:
    Y'know with Slately talking about Don king, Jillian, and Dickie it makes me wonder why there was no mention of the other royal sides
    What of Foxmud, Hobbittm, and SofaKing?
    What are their rulers like? are they just as "bad" as Dickie, and Jillian? are they also Royals in Name Only.


    I wondered that as well...

    Quote:
    And i do have to ask why they are not also part of this upcoming fight if they too are part of the RCCII
    On the one hand we could question if they have the troops to spare as two of them did not give as many troops to the last RCC, and Sofaking may have suffered heavy losses... though it could be that they are preparing for a contingency should this battle fail... or perhaps their troops are meant to work towards anykind of unexpected maneuvers from GK... hard to say...


    I had some ideas. They might be rather small sides, compared to middle strength powers like Unaroyal and maybe Haggar and high strength powers like TV, Jetstone and GK now. They might legitimately not have many troops to commit.

    Also their location might be a factor. Jetstone and Haggar are fairly close together, we don't know where Sofa King, FoxMUD etc are, and since GK came so quickly upon Spacerock they might not have had the time to arrive. Lastly they might also be facing pesky enemies, like TV and Jetstone has, which will have made it difficult to get any meaningful force away.

    Quote:
    I actually do kinda wonder though why Don king isn't sending more to this fight... sure he's the one behind Jillian's power, but i would have still imagined he might send in ceaser with some skanks and bats to help her... sure Tv has suffered greatly recently, but Don king does seem to betting on everything with this fight; saying it's the end of the world if GK wins.


    It is curious, but it also seems to be in TV character. They seem, from both RCCI and II, like a side that refrains from committing actual units to a fight if at all possible, preferring more subtle support (or Jillian the proxy).

    Knight13 wrote:
    Have you been paying attention to anything about the nature of Erfworld up to this point? Erfworld is a living strategy game, everything in it revolves around war. Attacking your neighbors is routine and entirely normal behavior for rulers. Summer text update 11 mentioned that Transylvito periodically conquers one of Carpool's cities and then either ransoms it back to them or razes it to the ground. In other words, "peaceful" and "non-violent" are two words that have no real meaning in Erfworld. As far as I can tell, aside from not being Royal, the only thing Stanley's done that's out of the ordinary is attuning to the Arkenhammer.


    Yes, and I was being sarcastic, because as you say war is war, and there is tit for tat going on. Stanley was out there acting like a tool, had wiped out two sides (though no one knew about Faq) and so forth. He drew attention to himself and then the fact he was a non-royal really inspired Jetstone to commit to taking him down.

    Oberon wrote:
    This is described by Parson, learned in his talks with Sizemore, as very typical royal behavior: Gang up to wipe out any non-royal who builds a side up to a noticeable level.


    Although this is a chap on the non-royal side doing the talking. Not that I think Sizemore would lie, though we don't have many example of non-royal leaders apart from Charlie, who we know has managed to handle it.

    Quote:
    In real fairness, Vinny already called Ansom on this point long ago. Stanley killed a couple of Jetstone scouting units, in what Vinny at least was very willing to chalk up to rather typical behavior and not a provocation calling for Jetstone to build the RCC to go try to curb stomp that uppity non-noble who has managed to grow too big for his non-royal britches.


    Although Vinnie also doesn't disagree that there was cause or reason to go after GK and Stanley. He is questioning why Jetstone is so dedicated to the cause however, and committing so much to it.

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