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 Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 26
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:24 am 
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Glenn wrote:
greycat wrote:
Arci wrote:
So, either Paige REALLY doesn't know how to describe her own sword (unlikely, with Noah there to help her understand it) or Fumo has a REALLY bad weapon.

Well, the feral Warlady Paige managed to survive, level up to level 6 by croaking wildlife, and capture a capital site, not necessarily in that order, using this sword. So it can't be entirely worthless, whatever opinion she has of it.


I suspect that most of Paige's levels were gained by writing, rather than by hunting animals. She sees her writing as preparation for writing the book attacking the Titans. So every page she writes is training for the biggest war of all.

The War on Terra


I mean Erf.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 26
     Post Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:51 am 
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    Fla_Panther wrote:
    this video I watched just a week or two ago, a rapier seems to be quite a good choice to duel someone popped in a jungle with maybe only one weapon and no armor.

    Arci wrote:
    rapier ... On the other hand, the cutlass is a sword that is entirely about combat pragmatism.


    ... Are you the person whose video I just linked to? lol


    Nope, I just looked. This video is what I was referring to.

    Why I didn't link to it earlier is fairly simple really. At home we have limited data, no, not limited bandwidth, limited DATA, as in, we get to pay HUGE fines if we go over on any given month. As such, we, as a rule, do NOT watch videos at home. Now, at work I work alone and have no cameras to watch (security guard) so I bring my laptop and plug in my phone and, when I'm not on patrol, will catch a Youtube video or two. So, Saturday I was at work catching the video and then on Sunday found this update and attached thread. So, not having the link (watched at work, not at home) I had to reference the video... but couldn't link to it.

    That and I was too lazy to go onto Youtube and just look it up.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 26
     Post Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:40 am 
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    Titan wrote:
    New One is up. Final panel inked and colored by Lillian. Thank you for everything you gave to our world <3

    I like the way you writing! where can I find the continuation of the story? or there is not?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 26
     Post Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:12 am 
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    Zues wrote:
    Titan wrote:
    New One is up. Final panel inked and colored by Lillian. Thank you for everything you gave to our world <3

    I like the way you writing! where can I find the continuation of the story? or there is not?

    Hello, Zeus - Welcome to the forums! This story is still being written. Rob posts updates to this site about once a week, while dealing with some pretty serious RL issues. You can access the Archives https://erfworld.com/erf_stream/books for other books which he has completed. If you like this story, you'll enjoy the "Backer Stories" section very much.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 26
     Post Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:39 pm 
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    Looks like rapiers are mostly useful for one on one unarmed combat:
    http://www.thearma.org/Youth/rapieroutl ... VLljZNKgjU

    Not something to take to battle, but also not a toy developed by the nobility. A dedicated stabbing weapon designed to quickly kill threats in the street while being light enough to carry around easily. Essentially, a type of short spear that is less bulky to carry.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 26
     Post Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:01 pm 
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    Rapiers were like pistols today -- not something you'd fight a war with, but perfectly suitable for self defense.
    Notice that a general in the army today does not carry a battle rifle, but would carry a service pistol. Other people are supposed to do the fighting.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 26
     Post Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:51 pm 
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    gator68 wrote:
    Rapiers were like pistols today -- not something you'd fight a war with, but perfectly suitable for self defense.
    Notice that a general in the army today does not carry a battle rifle, but would carry a service pistol. Other people are supposed to do the fighting.


    I wonder how rapiers have changed since their time in service/combat. I believe the older rapiers had a sharp edge, whilst modern "sport" rapiers are more just there for stabbing at well-armored opponents to score points on them.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 26
     Post Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:21 pm 
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    Cjc wrote:
    The spear, which predated the sword, is a more useful military weapon. Lines of soldiers with spears can fend off charging enemies from greater distance and spears are easier to fabricate. In armed combat (and not firearm combat), distance equals safety; a bigger reach is more protection than any armor on your body.

    That said, all of a spear's dangerous components are at the end of a long pole. They're not practical for movement; either they pierce successfully or somebody locks the spear with a different weapon (like an axe or a sword blade) and gets in close. With the safety of that distance gone, a spear ceases to be the best weapon for the situation. I'd say that is where swords are superior; they are easier to handle despite their diminished reach and the larger arclength of their cutting edge makes them more dangerous by volume. It's also why they're superior to axes (which get relegated to work tools as a culture advances its weapon technology), because they're more dangerous for the weight.

    So I'd say you both are correct. It's simply a matter of which tool is more useful for which situation. Since Erfworld simulates a war game, less-trained soldiers with pikes would be more utilitarian than trained soldiers with swords: they'd cost fewer schmuckers to pop and maintain, and be more effective in stacks. Swords in Erfworld, then, would seem to be relegated to situations where stacks are impractical (such as for barbarians... perhaps this is a signamancy hint about both Stanley [who uses a pike and became a leader] and Jillian [who favors a sword and prefers being a mercenary]).
    We see many sided Stabbers wielding swords over spears even in situations where the spear might be more practical (Haggar's column at the Battle for Spacerock comes to mind)

    A massive part of Erfworld's physical law is based on Signamancy. How practical a spear or sword is from a real-world perspective isn't really important; what matters is what the Sign of such a weapon would mean. We've seen Transylvito units fighting Hobgoblin Knights with switchblades; useful in a back-alley brawl but next to useless in open warfare with *dragons* involved.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 26
     Post Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:50 am 
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    Arci wrote:
    gator68 wrote:
    Rapiers were like pistols today -- not something you'd fight a war with, but perfectly suitable for self defense.
    Notice that a general in the army today does not carry a battle rifle, but would carry a service pistol. Other people are supposed to do the fighting.


    I wonder how rapiers have changed since their time in service/combat. I believe the older rapiers had a sharp edge, whilst modern "sport" rapiers are more just there for stabbing at well-armored opponents to score points on them.


    Well that's why I was wondering if you were thinking of the olympic sport. The swords used in that are not really swords at all, more like metal sticks used to play tag. You're not really armored, you just wear a jacket that protects you from scrapes and minor cuts. And a facemask to keep you from losing an eye. :shock: They are made to make it deliberately difficult to hurt someone.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(fencing)

    Renaissance fencing definitely included cuts and thrusts -- the rapier of that time would have been able to do either.
    http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~wew/fencing/sca ... grippa.pdf

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 26
     Post Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:59 am 
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    HalfTangible wrote:
    We see many sided Stabbers wielding swords over spears even in situations where the spear might be more practical (Haggar's column at the Battle for Spacerock comes to mind)

    A massive part of Erfworld's physical law is based on Signamancy. How practical a spear or sword is from a real-world perspective isn't really important; what matters is what the Sign of such a weapon would mean. We've seen Transylvito units fighting Hobgoblin Knights with switchblades; useful in a back-alley brawl but next to useless in open warfare with *dragons* involved.

    This is true, but what I was trying to say is the signamancy of the weapon that a unit pops with speaks volumes about what the game intends them to do. The physics in Erfworld are abstract, so it doesn't care that a Transylvitan would fight a Dwagon with a knife. But looking at it as an outside observer we can see how absurd this truly is: clearly Transylvito tribe are not meant to engage with a dwagon, or in any situation except one where pulling a knife would present the advantage. This is supported by their usual tactic: obscuring the vision of their opponent with a swarm of bats and then jumping in for a finishing blow. They may use bats, but this is equivalent to a real-world tactic of throwing dirt in somebody's eye and then shivving them.

    Extrapolating from that, it would seem that swords in Erfworld are meant for those who would fight with flash, 'storybook' protagonists for whom other soldiers are just a backdrop or set dressing. This aligns with the royal agenda, and may suggest that Paige and Fumo have royal bonuses despite being 'ferals'. Contrary to that, being popped with a spear seems to indicate faceless infantry. That's a "all are equal in the titans' eyes" sign if I ever saw one. Some are happy in this role, while others (like Stanley's new elves) reject the notion and literally paint new faces onto themselves.

    My takeaway from this observation is that people with swords are those the Titans consider important, and those with other weapons (more utilitarian, less rule-of-cool) are shrugged off in their popping as 'fodder'. I hope the comic will reveal this to be another lie of the titans: natural carnymancy that convinces a unit it's more important than it is because it has a fancy blade. It would prove a potent subversion of expectation.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 26
     Post Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:51 am 
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    On the sword and real life thing. Swords for an incredibly long time where backup weapons. You'd carry them in civil situations for self defence. And on the battlefield they where like pistols today, somthing you pulled out when somthing happened to your main weapon. What that was tended to really vary over time, but spear, pikes, and various forms of polearm where common. The thing about a sword is it's almost never the best weapon for a given situation, but it is a workable weapon in almost any situation. Whereas other weapon types where really good in several situations, but also had profound weaknesses in others.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 26
     Post Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:54 pm 
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    And to expand on, what Carl said above, swords are misrepresented in games like D & D , and modern television and movies. The most available armor was called gambeson (what D&D would refer to as cloth armor), and even that was almost impervious to swords. Polearms dominated the battlefield. Swords were a backup weapon.

    And when people talk about rapiers, they usually mean foil. A foil is a sport dueling weapon. A rapier is a long narrow sword, that is just heavy as a normal sword, and is meant mostly for thrusting. Its weight and center of gravity is such that it allows you to put a lot of power in a thrust, but not easily move the sword around. There are better swords for dueling. If it was portrayed accurately in role playing games, the rapier would be a strength based weapon for fighters and not a dex based one for rogues.
    -----
    None of this matters for erfworld though. Erfworld is based on pop cultures view of the weapons, and not history.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 26
     Post Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:38 pm 
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    Glenn wrote:
    greycat wrote:
    Arci wrote:
    So, either Paige REALLY doesn't know how to describe her own sword (unlikely, with Noah there to help her understand it) or Fumo has a REALLY bad weapon.
    Well, the feral Warlady Paige managed to survive, level up to level 6 by croaking wildlife, and capture a capital site, not necessarily in that order, using this sword. So it can't be entirely worthless, whatever opinion she has of it.
    I suspect that most of Paige's levels were gained by writing, rather than by hunting animals. She sees her writing as preparation for writing the book attacking the Titans. So every page she writes is training for the biggest war of all.

    Not sure if you're serious.... There's no evidence that "theorycrafting" about warfare gives any experience points. If that were the case, we'd expect Parson to be higher level than he is.

    Paige had many thousandturns of survival experience as a barbarian before becoming a Ruler and starting her writing career. This is canon from the toolshed (Art Blog).

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 26
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:44 am 
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    Sir Dr D wrote:
    If it was portrayed accurately in role playing games, the rapier would be a strength based weapon for fighters and not a dex based one for rogues.

    To say nothing of bows.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 26
     Post Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:24 am 
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    greycat wrote:
    Paige had many thousandturns of survival experience as a barbarian before becoming a Ruler and starting her writing career. This is canon from the toolshed (Art Blog).

    Minor point - IIRC, Paige's xp wasn't from surviving as a Barbarian. She claimed Nestly's capitol and became Ruler very early in her life. But the city defenses were so porous, ferals came in and attacked regularly. So she got her xp as Ruler of Nestly, fighting ferals all over the island AND attacking her inside her city.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 26
     Post Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:33 am 
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    Yes, that's a fair point. Originally I said we were uncertain of the order in which everything occurred, but this wording got dropped when I was forced to repeat myself.

    The real point I'm trying to make is that she did not level up by writing books.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 26
     Post Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:16 pm 
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    It took me way, waaaaay too many times rereading the last passage to realize he meant her sword looked identical to Fumo's, and not that her sword looked identical to...her own sword. That was a serious divide-by-zero moment for me

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 26
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:07 am 
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    Greycat, I agree that Paige probably couldn't level through "theory crafting" about war. But I don't agree that in any way describes what Paige is trying to do through her writing. She is trying to develop the skills and eloquence to undermine the fundamental theological assumptions of Erfworld society. Given the difficulty of her struggle, and its fundamentally political and warlike nature, I can understand why she tells Sugar that she fights the war every day.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 26
     Post Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:21 am 
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    Glenn wrote:
    Greycat, I agree that Paige probably couldn't level through "theory crafting" about war. But I don't agree that in any way describes what Paige is trying to do through her writing. She is trying to develop the skills and eloquence to undermine the fundamental theological assumptions of Erfworld society. Given the difficulty of her struggle, and its fundamentally political and warlike nature, I can understand why she tells Sugar that she fights the war every day.

    Artemis (https://wiki.erfworld.com/Artemis) reached a comparable level to Paige through training instead of direct combat. It could (and should) be argued that training the mind with war games is just as relevant as training the body on a straw dummy. I'd say Paige's writing qualifies as training in that regard, which has canonically been shown to grant a small amount of experience.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 26
     Post Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:49 am 
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    Arci wrote:
    Lord_Of_The_Ravenspire wrote:
    The thing was good for duelling- especially if you could find an opponent who was armed with the same silly weapon - but she hadn't used it for anything but sport in who-knows-how-many hundredturns.
    HMMMM...


    I'm no professional of swords, but I do like to look up a few tidbits here and there. This line about the sword being only any good when up against another opponent armed with the same weapon told me immediately "rapier". It's so light and flimsy that unless your opponent is completely unarmored, and I mean COMPLETELY... then the only way you're going to land any kind of blow worth anything is being an absolute professional.

    I'm sorry but this is incorrect. Rapiers are long, heavy swords. The confusion comes from mixing them up with smallswords, and from Hollywood & stage fencing where the props are light and quick.

    Rapiers are duelling weapons par exellence, as they have great reach and the ability to quickly deliver lethal thrusts from range. It is however true that they are not terribly useful on the battlefield, as they are optimised for 1 vs. 1 duelling, and of only limited use against armour.

    These are smallswords
    Image


    Where as these are rapiers
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5e/0f/d6/5e0fd64be38f3fd7d0926d4677bd7b3f.jpg

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