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 Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 14
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:56 pm 
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Skull the Troll wrote:
I dont think Jillian or Fumo need Food + Schmuckers,

Right. They only need the shmuckers.

Quote:
its simply that the foraged food doesn't provide enough to pay for upkeep.

No. This has been spelled out pretty clearly. If you're a speaking unit, your upkeep is due in shmuckers. You can earn credit for up to half(?) that amount by eating food, but the rest must be rendered in shmuckers or gems. Or rands, if you're in the Magic Kingdom, apparently.

If you're a non-speaking unit, your upkeep is due in food. You must eat enough food each day to avoid depopping.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 14
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:32 pm 
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    TomaO2 wrote:
    Quote:
    for·age
    /ˈfôrij,ˈfärij/Submit
    verb
    gerund or present participle: foraging
    (of a person or animal) search widely for food or provisions.
    "gulls are equipped by nature to forage for food"
    obtain (food or provisions).
    "a girl foraging grass for oxen"
    obtain food or provisions from (a place).
    "a man foraging a dumpster finds some celery"
    synonyms: hunt, hunt around, search, look about/around/round, cast about/around/round, rummage (about/around/round), ferret (about/around), root about/around, scratch about/around, nose around/about/round, scour, look high and low; More
    ARCHAIC
    supply (an animal or person) with food.


    I take issue with the use of nonstandard pronunciation notation, especially when they are (seemingly) copied from outdated dictionaries but without the all-important pronunciation key (or the name of the source dictionary, so the reader can at least look up the pronunciation key).

    IPA was invented for a reason.
    AmE: /ˈfɔɹɪdʒ/
    BrE: /ˈfɒɹɪdʒ/

    Or, using WBO respelling (which is likely more intuitive for people unfamiliar with IPA):
    AmE: "FAW-rihj"
    BrE: "FO-rihj"

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 14
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:36 pm 
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    Jaxad0127 wrote:
    I think it's even easier: human units need more than food; they have maintenance as well. Non human units on a side also get maintenance, which is why they cost more than feral equivalents. Ferals don't have/need maintenance, in general.


    I think the way Jaxad phrased it here is really elegant. Both a Unit:Stupidworld (US) and a Typical Human Erfworld Mook (THEM) have to have both food to survive and maintenance for our equipment.

    In both cases US and THEM can either pay for their food or forage for it, with varying levels of success. It's just that THEM has more of a quantum level survival; one turn without means croaking. If US can't get food US suffers penalties to our Number and eventually directly to Hits until we get to Zero.

    Both US and THEM also pay for equipment maintenance. US, however, have the benefits of choice and education. We can let our equipment fall into disrepair or let our clothes get dirty or ripped. We can also learn how to clean or fix or make our equipment. THEM cannot.

    Every turn THEM pays to have their equipment maintained whether they can pay or not.
    Spoiler: show
    "Ya can't pay youse debts? Well, Numbers sez we gots ta depop ya. Nothin' personal, jest how it is."


    One possibility for prisoners' reduced maintenance is that they don't have equipment or clothing that requires upkeep. We saw that Lillith had her uniform torn off and replaced with a manufactured hood and raincoat. Parson, Jack, and Maggie also had all their equipment and clothing taken and were issued prisoner garb. When Jillian escaped from Haffaton she just had to make forage, not maintenance.

    I wonder if it would be possible (although uncomfortable) for THEM to reduce maintenance to Zero by running around naked with no equipment. It wouldn't be survivable for anyone but a caster, or maybe an unarmed warlord.

    Hmmm. Story idea maybe...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 14
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:35 pm 
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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 14
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:22 pm 
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    Citizen Alan wrote:
    Possibly off-topic, but looking at Shirtless Noah, does anyone else think we've just found the model for Xin's next pin-up? I mean, after the whole Ark thing, Biblical Noah is perhaps best known for getting drunk and naked in that order in a post-Ark scene that would have been comedy gold except for that whole "Ham getting banished" business.
    Well we've got Fumo, a helpless sap with odd signamancy who keeps on getting tossed around by powers just beyond his understanding. The punk elves, bored sadists whose unfriendly exterior hides a heart of coal. Lucy and Tanya, bored sadists with attractive looks and naval signamancy. Paige Turner, a geriatric intellectual suffering from mental issues. Cryptolemy, a younger intellectual who seems to be suffering from mental issues.

    Or the jacked older guy with an interesting backstory and a developed understanding of human emotions. Yeah, who knows... :roll:

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 14
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:14 pm 
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    Citizen Alan wrote:
    Possibly off-topic, but looking at Shirtless Noah, does anyone else think we've just found the model for Xin's next pin-up? I mean, after the whole Ark thing, Biblical Noah is perhaps best known for getting drunk and naked in that order in a post-Ark scene that would have been comedy gold except for that whole "Ham getting banished" business.

    I thought the guy was called Cham.. But if he was indeed called Ham it explains that weird taboo on pork.

    "Ham! For your shameless behaviour, you and your wife Bacon are forever banishèd from this place!"

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 14
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:49 pm 
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    greycat wrote:
    No. This has been spelled out pretty clearly. If you're a speaking unit, your upkeep is due in shmuckers. You can earn credit for up to half(?) that amount by eating food, but the rest must be rendered in shmuckers or gems. Or rands, if you're in the Magic Kingdom, apparently.

    If you're a non-speaking unit, your upkeep is due in food. You must eat enough food each day to avoid depopping.


    But the problem is that the demi-human tribes have speaking units, but don't have a purse to hold smuckers. They clearly work on a different system than the human units do. Humans need to find things to turn into smuckers to put in his purse, so that he can pay for his upkeep at the start of turn.

    Tribes don't have a purse, this has been explicitly stated in the comic. The entire human upkeep system relies on having a purse to store the smuckers. I just don't see any other way that tribes can survive to the extent they do if they they couldn't exist solely on food, like animals do.

    As best I can figure, there are humans, that need smuckers to survive, demi-human tribes, that can survive with just food but also can use smuckers to create objects, and animals, that exist solely on food, although some do have a purse that can keep them alive if they can't find any.

    Also, yes, it's about half upkeep to get an alternative source of food. So far that is the one and only method known to lower upkeep. Although, logically speaking, if you managed to create your own items, such as clothing, maybe make sure that you could heal yourself, and such, that should also help with paying for upkeep. The less you make the world do to help, the less it should cost.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 14
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:55 pm 
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    If I remember correctly Scott's body (the fleshy part) would only be in the last segment (or so) of the shell.

    The rest of the shell is a series of (mostly empty) chambers with a small fleshy siphon that grows back through each chamber that Scott can use to adjust the amount of water in the chambers to change bouyancy/ballast.

    This means that less than half of his volume is body that needs to be fed (upkeep) - the rest is empty (pearly) shell.

    Still - "only" as big as half of a city is insanely large...

    Also - for real life nautilus - because the chambers are air filled there is a maximum depth limit before they crush/implode from the pressure.

    Ken D.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 14
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:10 pm 
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    Jade wrote:
    Who knew that an Eldritch Horror could be friend shaped?

    Image

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 14
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:05 am 
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    TomaO2 wrote:
    greycat wrote:
    No. This has been spelled out pretty clearly. If you're a speaking unit, your upkeep is due in shmuckers. You can earn credit for up to half(?) that amount by eating food, but the rest must be rendered in shmuckers or gems. Or rands, if you're in the Magic Kingdom, apparently.

    If you're a non-speaking unit, your upkeep is due in food. You must eat enough food each day to avoid depopping.


    But the problem is that the demi-human tribes have speaking units, but don't have a purse to hold smuckers. They clearly work on a different system than the human units do. Humans need to find things to turn into smuckers to put in his purse, so that he can pay for his upkeep at the start of turn.

    Tribes don't have a purse, this has been explicitly stated in the comic. The entire human upkeep system relies on having a purse to store the smuckers. I just don't see any other way that tribes can survive to the extent they do if they they couldn't exist solely on food, like animals do.

    As best I can figure, there are humans, that need smuckers to survive, demi-human tribes, that can survive with just food but also can use smuckers to create objects, and animals, that exist solely on food, although some do have a purse that can keep them alive if they can't find any.

    Also, yes, it's about half upkeep to get an alternative source of food. So far that is the one and only method known to lower upkeep. Although, logically speaking, if you managed to create your own items, such as clothing, maybe make sure that you could heal yourself, and such, that should also help with paying for upkeep. The less you make the world do to help, the less it should cost.


    OK so we need to talk about sides and mobs here, because that's the distinction I'm seeing here. This is nothing to do with being a "speaking unit".

    A side would be considered player run, although for the purposes of Erfworld the closest thing to a player running a side is a ruler/overlord etc. (append here many codicils about duty/loyalty/the interaction of personality and game structures/Fate etc.) Their standard units have classes and level progressions although they will naturally have conjured/created/summoned/crafted/engineered etc. unit-like beings and objects. Units have purses and need upkeep in the form of schmuckers that can be partially mitigated. Unit-like beings will have some kind of startup and possibly maintenance cost whether in terms of materials or juice, but not in terms of upkeep in the same way that units do. I imagine a Battlebear doesn't heal at turn start but requires a dollamancer to spend juice and materials to patch up any wounds.

    Mobs are of course game generated - popped at random according to look up tables. Tribes are one kind of mob that seems to have a modifier - a hex that contains 30 Juggle Elves might weight that hexes tables to increase the chance of another Juggle Elf popping to 20%, for example.

    All of these mobs use the forage system for upkeep. Intelligent mobs in tribes might devise a way to hold on to schmuckers/gems they find for trade, but that doesn't mean they're part of the schmucker-based upkeep system; just that the upkeep system responds as well to real world objects of particular kinds that can be put to other uses.

    It so happens that these lookup tables have a chance to pop a side-style Warlord classed unit - in effect a unit which is a member of a side of 1. Like other side units, it can only partially defray its upkeep with forage and needs to have an allotment of schmuckers in its purse at turn end/start. Its "side of 1" needs to generate income to maintain it.

    This situation holds if/until it finds and successfully turns to another side (of more than one) whereupon it has a sponsor trading upkeep for output (in terms of ROI) which leads us all back to sides need to fight to survive or the tragedy of Erfworld. This is why Charlie is the genius that he is, for all that he's interpretable as the villain - he maximises his profit per unit and treats them as an investment in future profit making endeavours which leads to him as much as possible minimising their risk.

    Adults in our world, it should be noted, for the most part face the same economic challenges and people vie to work for a Charlie rather than a Stanley.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 14
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:28 am 
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    Hi!
    I am pretty new here, even though I have read all of Erfworld since ~ 5 years.
    The nautilus graphics now lead me to create an account.

    I really like the story and I admire the graphics being 100% unable to draw anything even slightly comparable.

    Did you know that the Nautilus shell size follows an exponential growth?

    https://www.goldennumber.net/nautilus-s ... den-ratio/

    Looking at the displayed shell Scottilus might need more food to sustain the exponential growth. On the other hand it might already have reached Erf-size by now if it would have grown exponentially for such a long time ;-)

    Eager to read more!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 14
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:33 am 
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    E is for Erfworld Supporter Battle Crest Pins Supporter Year of the Dwagon Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Mined 4 Erf This user is a Tool! Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day Ruler of Erfworld Won Mine4erf for the Gobwins Diamonds Suit Pip
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    stefan wrote:
    Hi!
    I am pretty new here, even though I have read all of Erfworld since ~ 5 years.
    The nautilus graphics now lead me to create an account.

    Welcome to the forums! :D

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 14
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:15 am 
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    greycat wrote:
    Skull the Troll wrote:
    I dont think Jillian or Fumo need Food + Schmuckers,

    Right. They only need the shmuckers.

    Quote:
    its simply that the foraged food doesn't provide enough to pay for upkeep.

    No. This has been spelled out pretty clearly. If you're a speaking unit, your upkeep is due in shmuckers. You can earn credit for up to half(?) that amount by eating food, but the rest must be rendered in shmuckers or gems. Or rands, if you're in the Magic Kingdom, apparently.

    If you're a non-speaking unit, your upkeep is due in food. You must eat enough food each day to avoid depopping.


    Jillian spent days with no purse and no upkeep as a fugitive. (https://archives.erfworld.com/Book%200/45) The rules about the half upkeep you're quoting are for sided units eating their rations. That said, I agree that they only really need schmuckers. Where I differ is that food CAN be used as a complete substitute some of the time. Maybe its only for barbarians, maybe its only for prisoners. We see lots of examples in the story however that state that it is possible. Jillian had the advantage of experience in field craft, and being in world she understood. Newly popped warlords don't have that advantage.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 14
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:26 am 
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    I'm surprised there don't seem to be any comments yet about another possible Stupidworld literary parallel for Noah.

    He talks to animals, flower power can be used medicinally, and he is now traveling in a giant sea snail -
    well, mollusc, anyway, - though it isn't pink.

    (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Dolittle)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 14
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:08 pm 
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    TomaO2 wrote:
    No. This has been spelled out pretty clearly. If you're a speaking unit, your upkeep is due in shmuckers. You can earn credit for up to half(?) that amount by eating food, but the rest must be rendered in shmuckers or gems. Or rands, if you're in the Magic Kingdom, apparently.

    If you're a non-speaking unit, your upkeep is due in food. You must eat enough food each day to avoid depopping.

    Units have consistently had to pay half upkeep as minimum.

    Digdoug - Eposide 21 wrote:
    Depending on the type of food, eating extra rations would reduce a unit’s upkeep by a substantial amount. A good solid meal in addition to your popped rations generally meant cutting your next turn’s upkeep in half, for barbarian and sided units alike. And prepared meals gave you more upkeep relief than just eating raw forage or produce.

    TBfGK - Epilogue 14 wrote:
    As promised, Big Al allowed Jillian to fill her saddlebags. She chose hardtack, nuts, olives and jerky, and bonemeal feed for the gwiffons, enough to keep her on minimum upkeep for five turns.

    These would presumably count as prepared food (except the nuts?). So there is no way to reduce upkeep farther.

    Fumo the Free - Part 1 wrote:
    with a few extremely rare exceptions, forage can only provide half the cost of a unit's next turn. It didn't matter if you'd filled your stomach. If your purse was empty at start of turn, then you were gone.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 14
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:07 pm 
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    Quote:
    Also, Nestly's defenses are *incredibly* good. With the Gun Whales, and the Dread Naughtilus, and See Birds for scouting, and probably even more "friends" we don't know of yet, they could probably defeat basically any navy we've seen so far. Of course, it's not much of an offensive force, since it seems like Noah wouldn't be able to get all his friends to go to specific places and follow a strategy. But simple things like defending the island? It would take a precisely designed invasion force to defeat.


    A flying fleet could presumably circumvent their primary defenses. In fact it's a bit odd that they were trying a navy to investigate the mystery hexes rather then sending flying units to fly over the dangerous hexes.

    Though I guess the likely answer is that they tried a flying scout and one of Noah's so far unmentioned defenses took out the scout, and the naval power was unable to put together a sufficient flying fleet to present a reasonable invasion force to take on whatever flying feral's Noah has at hand.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 14
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:13 pm 
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    "No, you didn't have to cast your juice to force them to accept upkeep from you (and therefore also your commands). That was Turnamancy, an arguably criminal discipline, when you got down to it. However, a little bit of charming Date-a-mancy, just to show the the beasties you truly mean them well, could help form a connection to those you saved."

    I couldn't help thinking about the way Annie Oakleaf and Janis were feeding the MK snakes when I read this. I don't have any particular reason to favor Noah's ethic over Janis's, but I kinda do wonder what he'd think of it...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 14
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:40 pm 
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter This user is a Tool! This user was a Tool before it was cool Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter Mined 4 Erf Won Mine4erf for the Gobwins Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day For when you need it most Won Mine4erf for the Marbits Clubs Suit Pip Spades Suit Pip Hearts Suit Pip Diamonds Suit Pip Erfmover Supporter
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    Skull the Troll wrote:
    greycat wrote:
    Skull the Troll wrote:
    I dont think Jillian or Fumo need Food + Schmuckers,

    Right. They only need the shmuckers.

    Quote:
    its simply that the foraged food doesn't provide enough to pay for upkeep.

    No. This has been spelled out pretty clearly. If you're a speaking unit, your upkeep is due in shmuckers. You can earn credit for up to half(?) that amount by eating food, but the rest must be rendered in shmuckers or gems. Or rands, if you're in the Magic Kingdom, apparently.

    If you're a non-speaking unit, your upkeep is due in food. You must eat enough food each day to avoid depopping.


    Jillian spent days with no purse and no upkeep as a fugitive. (https://archives.erfworld.com/Book%200/45) The rules about the half upkeep you're quoting are for sided units eating their rations. That said, I agree that they only really need schmuckers. Where I differ is that food CAN be used as a complete substitute some of the time. Maybe its only for barbarians, maybe its only for prisoners. We see lots of examples in the story however that state that it is possible. Jillian had the advantage of experience in field craft, and being in world she understood. Newly popped warlords don't have that advantage.

    I'm sticking with food+maintenance.

    You can forage/cook for food, or pay for it with schmuckers. Farms and orchards save a side money by providing food for units.

    You pay for maintenance. Casters cost more because juice refill adds to maintenance. There is probably something in the magic system that can reduce maintenance next turn, but I doubt fully eliminate it, or eliminating a caster's upkeep requires more juice than a caster gets per turn (i.e. a high level caster may be able to pay for maintenance for a lowly level 1 piker, but never themselves).

    Prisoners and fugitives don't have/get maintenance. This may explain part of their disadvantage compared to fully sided(/barbarian) units.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 14
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:39 am 
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    Jaxad0127 wrote:
    DukeBG wrote:
    Carl wrote:
    Well we've got a new minimum timestamp on how old erf is. 50k turns is a loooong time. Where talking what, roughly 150 years IRL equivalent?

    Also interesting point, he apparently creates pearls, (which i assume are a form of gem), internally. Intriguing.

    Umm... 50K turns is nothing. According to bonus materials in book 1, RVC was 28.8K turns old, Isaac 21.5K turns old. A.V. Club 14.1K turns old.

    I would assume Erfworld timeline since the "creation" is more on a scale of a million turns. 50K is just what the Naughtilus remembers.

    Tramennis states (writes?) that Jetstone is over nearly 80k turns old (specifically the king's journal is nearly 80k turns old).


    Yes, the kings' diary started about 80K turns ago by Flintlock the Voluble, but that was not the first king of Jetstone. We actually have no idea how many queens and kings of Jetstone there were between The Old King Coal and Flintlock the Voluble. 80K is the lower bound. The actual Jetstone age might be 100K turns, might be 200K turns. Who knows. We don't. But okay, I guess, 660K turns (that would make the whole world 1M turns including, as infiniplex wrote, the reference that Jetstone is (approximately) 2/3 of the age of the world) is a big stretch.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 14
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:44 pm 
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    Ptolemy was a cool dude. A top caliber mathematician of the early CE, Ptolemy's work as a mathematician was critical for the later development of heliocentrism. He brought together much of the mathematical work from his forefathers, the ancient greeks to create the mathematical systems behind the geocentric model. His research would go on to serve as the basis for astronomy, seamanship and map-making for over a millennia.

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    Jargon generally only superceeds the lay definition if it is being used by people speaking to people that recognize that jargon. If not being used by people that recognize that Jargon, then one should not insist on the Jargon definition being applied.

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