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 Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 7
 Post Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:42 pm 
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neko wrote:
Jade wrote:
Regarding the Signamancy of Paige, does anyone recognize her?

All the imagery and relationships are giving me a very "Sunset Boulevard" vibe. While Paige the Wife Queen is not directly Norma Desmond (and certainly not Gloria Swanson), there are enough parallels for me:

- both have the "Old Hollywood Glamour" Signamancy, check
- both successful artists (writer vs silent movie actress), check
- both have a very loose grasp on sanity and are short-tempered/haughty, check
- both are writing something that will be their greatest achievement / comeback work (King Archie vs Salome), check
- both have mole on the left side of their chin, check

Sunset Boulevard movie wiki summary
Sunset Boulevard movie analysis

Yeah agreed. I was leaning toward Norma Desmond in a comment from the last update, and this one makes it even further apparent.

Keep in mind, if this is correct, it doesn't bode well for her or this new expose on Archibald Type.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 7
     Post Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:08 pm 
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    zbeeblebrox wrote:
    neko wrote:
    Jade wrote:
    Regarding the Signamancy of Paige, does anyone recognize her?

    All the imagery and relationships are giving me a very "Sunset Boulevard" vibe. While Paige the Wife Queen is not directly Norma Desmond (and certainly not Gloria Swanson), there are enough parallels for me:

    - both have the "Old Hollywood Glamour" Signamancy, check
    - both successful artists (writer vs silent movie actress), check
    - both have a very loose grasp on sanity and are short-tempered/haughty, check
    - both are writing something that will be their greatest achievement / comeback work (King Archie vs Salome), check
    - both have mole on the left side of their chin, check

    Sunset Boulevard movie wiki summary
    Sunset Boulevard movie analysis

    Yeah agreed. I was leaning toward Norma Desmond in a comment from the last update, and this one makes it even further apparent.

    Keep in mind, if this is correct, it doesn't bode well for her or this new expose on Archibald Type.


    Norma Desmond was not a "successful artist". She was a formerly successful artist, who had failed to adapt to the major cultural and artistic shift caused by the invention of talking pictures. Paige is still a successful artist, but the question is, will she be able to adapt to the major cultural shift caused by talking towers. Paige's writing is based on events that would go completely unnoticed, were it not for Noah's ability to use Seeing birds to see them. But the new Towers are likely to massively increase their side's capacity for surveillance, which means that Paige may have a much harder time producing works that seem new and original.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 7
     Post Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:47 pm 
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    mortissimus wrote:
    I think commanders popped in the capital are children of the ruler. Afaik, it matches all known cases, including Wanda and her non-royal dad.

    If the ruler is royalty, commanders popped in the capital are also royalty, while commanders popped elsewhere are noble.

    (We don't know what happens if the ruler is noble, my headcanon is the same noble title for commanders popped in the capital, and a lower one for other commanders.)

    Commanders popped in the capital may or may not be heirs, depending on if you pop an heir or a regular commander.
    Remembered that Wanda was only promoted to heir just before the fall of Goodminton, so scratch my original idea...

    "Popping in the Capital ==> Child of Ruler" seems a good theory. Wanna's story fits with it. Prince Albert's story works with it, as does Countess Artemis'. I can't recall where many other characters popped, though, need more examples.

    Alternatively, maybe command units popped *at the location of the ruler* are/can be children.

    That's also an interesting question RE sides ruled by nobility. Looking back at Vanna's Overlord vs Regent issues, though, I'm not sure if that situation could exist. We've got one example of a nobles ruling over a royal side, but Vanna seems to think that abandoning popping Don's (presumably royal) heir would be equivalent to Transylvito abandoning it's royal status. It would be interesting to have some Erfworld version of the Stewards of Gondor, though.

    Viscountess Appletini is also now Skyy Queen to Huehue after becoming ruler of TV, although the circumstances of her enthronement are rather... unusual.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 7
     Post Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:51 pm 
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    mortissimus wrote:
    I think commanders popped in the capital are children of the ruler. Afaik, it matches all known cases, including Wanda and her non-royal dad.

    If the ruler is royalty, commanders popped in the capital are also royalty, while commanders popped elsewhere are noble.

    (We don't know what happens if the ruler is noble, my headcanon is the same noble title for commanders popped in the capital, and a lower one for other commanders.)

    Commanders popped in the capital may or may not be heirs, depending on if you pop an heir or a regular commander.


    Sons and daughters in Erfworld are not children. Wanda, quite old as people go in this world, didn't know what Parson meant by child. In that context, of course, it has no counterpart in Erfworld.

    The word "kid", on the other hand, has a meaning of younger person, so it does have a reference. Perhaps child has some rare use in that sense, someone who is younger, perhaps for both sons and daughters on a ruler.

    But I don't think that is what Noah is talking about. More important, Paige knew the word too, and didn't want to bring it up. If it doesn't have some meaning in Erfworld like have an heir, son or daughter, which isn't in common use, what else can it mean?

    Heirs, like any other unit in Erfworld, do not mostly engage in play. It is children from our world that do that. So who might know about children, and how would they find out?

    My guess is prior contact with Judy Gale, or someone like her, who like Parson tried to explain children to an Erfworlder.

    Or else, among the books and records (written, not the recorded music that Noah mentions, another thing which doesn't seem a standard part of Erfworld technology) stored in the Library, there is some reference to elements of Stupidworld, or at least the life and times of the Perfect Warlord.

    I think that music recordings would be a thing that Erfworld magic could make, but perhaps not a common or easy thing. Charlie's tower records things, and someone else may have made a linked tool to do the same thing. Foolamancy and Rhymamancy could do something like that. We haven't seen it before, but I'd bet there are a lot of creative secrets that people have stumbled onto or invented in Erfworld which are not widely published or known.

    Noah may be on of the rare sorts who have gathered knowledge of such secrets, even if he doesn't know exactly what they mean.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 7
     Post Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:23 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    Lucille Bluth from Arrested Development?


    Mr. Goodwraith wrote:
    She reminds me a lot of an older Bette Davis.


    Thank you for the ideas. I was hoping there was a famous author/writer who looked similar to her, so that we could have an inkling heh of where her story is headed.

    neko wrote:
    All the imagery and relationships are giving me a very "Sunset Boulevard" vibe. While Paige the Wife Queen is not directly Norma Desmond (and certainly not Gloria Swanson), there are enough parallels for me:

    - both have the "Old Hollywood Glamour" Signamancy, check
    - both successful artists (writer vs silent movie actress), check
    - both have a very loose grasp on sanity and are short-tempered/haughty, check
    - both are writing something that will be their greatest achievement / comeback work (King Archie vs Salome), check
    - both have mole on the left side of their chin, check

    Sunset Boulevard movie wiki summary
    Sunset Boulevard movie analysis


    This I can see. While as you said, not a perfect parallel, it could be similar enough to be the case. Thank you :D

    Glenn wrote:
    Norma Desmond was not a "successful artist". She was a formerly successful artist, who had failed to adapt to the major cultural and artistic shift caused by the invention of talking pictures. Paige is still a successful artist, but the question is, will she be able to adapt to the major cultural shift caused by talking towers. Paige's writing is based on events that would go completely unnoticed, were it not for Noah's ability to use Seeing birds to see them. But the new Towers are likely to massively increase their side's capacity for surveillance, which means that Paige may have a much harder time producing works that seem new and original.


    This is why I'm not sure it's a perfect match. Paige is not a fading star; if anything she's getting brighter and brighter. Though I can see the wasting away in isolation theme in both characters.

    Regarding the Towers, I wonder if it might be the cause of future problems for a different reason. The changing Towers seem to reflect what the Side needs: GK needed a mellow Ruler so Parson can do what he needs to do; CC needed someone to look after the Ruler and keep him focused on his customers and less on his hobby (Big Game); Generica needed someone to take all the tacky crap out of the capital and make it less of an eyesore. (TV I can't really say anything about, cuz it's Ruler croaked himself on HueHue's watch, so...)

    What if Nestly's Tower decides that the Side needs to start being seen, despite the risks of eventual warfare? That hiding from the rest of Erfworld is dangerous and unhealthy to the mental state of it's Ruler? Even just growing taller than the surrounding trees might be enough of an issue in the Side's initial hiding to survive strategy.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 7
     Post Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:41 am 
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    "Play"

    On one word, the world turns.

    As the pieces learn their lives are all a simulcrum of the Real World - a simplified game with rules of dubious fairness written by Authors beyond their control - everything comes down to what it means to "play" that game. Is it all a cruel joke of the Real Thing, or is the game its own Real Thing?

    Is "play" just a simulation (in sequence) of the real thing, or is it an act of creation in-itself?

    There's another faction missing from this debate. The players. The people who know that to play isn't just what it seems on its face - it isn't just a mockery of life, for losers to pretend they're heroes in their parents' basements, or unwitting pawns to be trapped inside a fake reality. To play is fun. It is life. It is reality!

    However it is the Signamancers intuit their definitons, Noah has missed his mark on "play" - or at least picked the most cynical slant to the definition. Sure, it's technically right, but there's not a hint of "fun", or "dance", or "jazz", "ritual", or any other slant to "play" that involves a hint of something more to it than just rote mimickry of something else more real. To a game piece angry at the unfair world, it may feel like their lives really mean nothing with the dictionary definition. To the players that know how important play is, however, the lives of Erfworlders aren't without meaning - if anything, it's possible they're concentrated, abstracted, ritualized, perfected meaning.

    There's something deep to this game of Erfworld, something that makes it the way it is. It is certainly unfair at times, cruel, and it is somewhat more simplified than what we consider the "real world", but it's not necessarily less meaningful or without merit. And the unfairness and cruelty might be necessary reflections of the greater world's laws (scarcity, economics, Numbers, a limited Source...), not just random punishments from uncaring designers.

    It seems to me that the gamepieces of Erfworld are primed for an awakening. The awakening Paige promises is an angry one - of pieces rebelling against a false and unfair reality. But the awakening it needs is to understand why the rules are the way they are, and what every piece's role is. Perhaps the game that's being played out really has meaning. Perhaps the highs and lows and tricks and games produce something that is more than mere simulation of a simplistic game. Perhaps it really is just a purer (different) representation of Life - meant to be Played for the same reason our lives are.

    In the end, we should Play not because we're told to or made to - but because going through the motions is fun, and an expression of the inner Signs of what makes us - us! Because to Play is Life!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 7
     Post Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:33 am 
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    "The more complex the mind, the greater the need for the simplicity of play."
    James Kirk, TOS "Shore Leave"

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 7
     Post Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:22 am 
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    "ARCHETYPE, noun [Gr. beginning, and form.]

    1. The original pattern or model of a work; or the model from which a thing is made; as, a tree is the archetype or pattern of our idea of that tree.

    2. Among minters, the standard weight, by which others are adjusted.

    3. Among Platonists, the archetypal world is the world as it existed in the idea of God, before the creation."

    - An American Dictionary of the English Language by Noah Webster, 1828

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 7
     Post Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:32 am 
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    Soooo... Paige Turner is turning the page on scripture? Is that it?

    E.

    P.S.: The movie "Sunset Boulevard" had its name translated to portuguese into something that, if translated back into English, would mean "Twilight of the Gods". Imagine that.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 7
     Post Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:21 am 
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    Eclison wrote:
    P.S.: The movie "Sunset Boulevard" had its name translated to portuguese into something that, if translated back into English, would mean "Twilight of the Gods". Imagine that.

    That would be an absolutely terrible translation. "Twilight Road" I could see, but how on earth did you get from "Boulevard" to "Gods"?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 7
     Post Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:13 pm 
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    Repeating something as complicated and imprecise as translation is going to introduce a lot of oddities. I wouldn't pay much attention to that.

    In the words of Frozen's Elsa,

    "Give up, give up! You cannot do it back in."

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 7
     Post Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:44 pm 
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    neko wrote:
    While Paige the Wife Queen is not directly Norma Desmond (and certainly not Gloria Swanson)

    neko, you've changed my mind. I think that the image of Paige in this page is very closely inspired by the Allen Warren photospread of Gloria Swanson that includes this pic and this pic.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 7
     Post Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:10 pm 
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    Mr. Goodwraith wrote:
    neko wrote:
    While Paige the Wife Queen is not directly Norma Desmond (and certainly not Gloria Swanson)

    neko, you've changed my mind. I think that the image of Paige in this page is very closely inspired by the Allen Warren photospread of Gloria Swanson that includes this pic and this pic.


    Thank you for the pics! It's a perfect match!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 7
     Post Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:44 pm 
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    Mr. Goodwraith wrote:
    neko wrote:
    While Paige the Wife Queen is not directly Norma Desmond (and certainly not Gloria Swanson)

    neko, you've changed my mind. I think that the image of Paige in this page is very closely inspired by the Allen Warren photospread of Gloria Swanson that includes this pic and this pic.

    WOW - that's some great webcrawling! I didn't even see those pics, and they match PERFECTLY!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 7
     Post Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:25 pm 
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    scrapped, please disregard.

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    Last edited by Umbrathor on Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 7
     Post Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:31 pm 
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    vreejack wrote:
    Squall83 wrote:
    But why does Language have a word for "child" at all? So far there haven't been any children in Erfworld. There are parents and offspring, but e.g. Prince Albert isn't just "playing", so that definition of "child" would not apply to heirs.


    They have a word for "child" because they have "Language" and Language includes a word for children. They recognize the word as legitimate and sensible through natural signamancy even if they do not know what it means, though some signamancers can apparently root out the hidden meanings of these obscure terms.

    It is crucial to factor in that Erfworlders do not learn language the way Stupidworlders do. They pop with Language and all kinds of knowledge and skills. The source of the words they know need not be part of any Erfworlder's experience, neither now nor in any past.

    Apparently whoever created Language knew (and included) the words 'child' and 'year', but chose not to incorporate those phenomena in the world they created.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 7
     Post Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:32 pm 
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    youngstormlord wrote:
    Erfworlders know of concept of brothers and sisters, son and daughter. For infantry, brother or sister in arms is the person you popped in batch with. For warlords, if you're popped in the Capital, you're son or daughter of the ruler, even if you are not a Heir. In fact, it's Wanda's and Tramennis' backstory. Every other warlord popped in the capital is considered your brother or sister.

    Jillian popped multiple warlords in Faq in preparation for her invasion. Then she popped Albert, her heir. Albert croaked a warlord during training exercise. Unless he was popped in Otoh or Kibo, he just croaked one of his brothers!

    First a small correction: the unit Abert croaked was not a Warlord, but a sergeant of one of the teams that man the tower ballistas.

    Secondly, I think that only a Ruler who has popped in the capital as a Warlord or lady would consider any Commanders that popped in the capital (after becoming Ruler) their children.

    Stanley for instance does not seem to (have) consider(ed) any commander a child of his. he might consider the pikers of the squad he popped with to have been brothers and sisters, though. I imagine those have all croaked by now.

    So why have we seen relatively few familty ties so far? I imagine that a capital usually is one of the highest level cities a side owns, and therefore can pop units that are more advanced than Warlords. Probably it is better to have secondary cities pop (most) of the Warpeeps, which are probably a unit that cities can produce fairly early on. Maybe cities of lvl 2 and upward.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 7
     Post Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:48 pm 
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    Umbrathor wrote:
    First a small correction: the unit Abert croaked was not a Warlord, but a sergeant of one of the teams that man the tower ballistas.

    Secondly, I think that only a Ruler who has popped in the capital as a Warlord or lady would consider any Commanders that popped in the capital (after becoming Ruler) their children.

    Stanley for instance does not seem to (have) consider(ed) any commander a child of his. he might consider the pikers of the squad he popped with to have been brothers and sisters, though. I imagine those have all croaked by now.


    Well, I think you are wrong about the "a Ruler who has popped in the capital" part. I would assume that any commanders who entered the production pipeline in the capital under the rulers command are considered his or her children. Caesar and Vanna talked about King Don's heir after King Don croaked even though the heir would have popped under Caesar (now under Sky Queen). If the heir is still in the production pipeline and actually manages to pop then presumably he or she would still be King Don's heir and royal.


    Umbrathor wrote:
    So why have we seen relatively few familty ties so far? I imagine that a capital usually is one of the highest level cities a side owns, and therefore can pop units that are more advanced than Warlords. Probably it is better to have secondary cities pop (most) of the Warpeeps, which are probably a unit that cities can produce fairly early on. Maybe cities of lvl 2 and upward.


    Well, we know that King Slately had 23 sons and daughters, most of which had already croaked by the time Book 1 started.

    We know that Queen Bea had a daughter, Princess Cruz. We do not have any definite information about other children (to the best of knowledge), Jeftichew is described as the "Disgraced Prince", so he might be her son. We do not know how many children preceded Princess Cruz.

    King Don had two children, after the Prince Ponzie desaster he decided to not pop anymore.

    King Banhammer only had Jillian once he was told he would need an heir.

    Stanley has no children and presumably never had any (The whole I need no heir thing).

    Charlie had at least one daughter, which turned out to be quite the poison apple. He understandably refrained from having more children.


    Anyway, what I am trying to get at, our sample size is rather small.
    There are hundreds of sides in Erfworld, we only saw the family relation of a few because we only got shown a few in great detail. We cannot say if those numbers of children are representative.
    Jetstone might be the exception (it probably is) or it might be normal. Not enough data.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 7
     Post Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:35 pm 
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    As far as we know, you can only pop one creature type at a time. So you need to halt production of your army to produce a commander. Unless they are producing an heir, I'd wager rulers would prefer to pop fighting forces at the Capital so that they are better protected.

    Despite their shortage of commanders, Gobwin Knob was still popping Dwagons in Book 1.

    I don't know if the unit Albert croaked was a warlord or not, but a lot of Jillian's fighting force was units turned by Vanna. Faq has probably been popping Megas this entire time.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 5 - Prologue 7
     Post Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:12 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    As far as we know, you can only pop one creature type at a time. So you need to halt production of your army to produce a commander. Unless they are producing an heir, I'd wager rulers would prefer to pop fighting forces at the Capital so that they are better protected.

    That would depend on geography. If you're a fairly large side, your capital may be deep inside your territory, unreachable by your enemies without going through your borders. In that case, you might prefer to pop your large armies and heavy hitters/defenders out near the border, where they're more likely to be needed. Your inner cities can pop warlords, casters, or whatever's not needed immediately on the front lines.

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