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 Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 324
 Post Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 3:43 pm 
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A good point lloyd. The important thing I got from this is 'the gems were not GK's when they were stolen by Charlie'. If Ben can get his tower to relay that to Shirley, then we might be able to see even more damage since I believe that can be considered damaging TV. After all, the towers can only speak in truth, right? And I think the loop hole Charlie is using is 'I didn't know I was stealing from TV'. Moment they realize it, is the moment it becomes a crime.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 324
     Post Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 3:59 pm 
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    kaylasdad99 wrote:
    Now, I have to confess that, in previous threads, I have pretty much scrolled past most of the discussion of the ins and outs of the Contract, so I may be a little behind. Has there been any consensus reached (or better yet, Word of Titan handed down) regarding the meaning, and scope of the term "full default?"


    When it comes to the contract, there is no such animal as consensus. My own personal interpretation of that clause is that it would give Charlie complete ownership of everything GK owns.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 324
     Post Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 5:27 pm 
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    DukeofTuring wrote:
    Erikulum wrote:
    Is the fresco picturing a succession of backstabbing monarchs? How fitting.
    If so, is the one on the right of the pillar a signamancy prediction? The lack of knife in his hand is probably a good omen for the current leader then.
    The last one visible on the right does have an empty left hand, yeah, just like the backstabber immediately to the left of the column. They all seem to be right handed backstabbers, which makes it a bit more important that we can't see what what's in "good omen"'s right hand :)


    ? > Sword > Scepter

    The Pen is mightier than the Sword.

    I also find it interesting that Ben is super-imposed on the scepter-wielding ruler, making it look like the sword is backstabbing Ben. How does he feel about Caeser taking over Don?

    Page 226:
    Quote:
    He is not happy about the leadership change, but OKed alliance terms with GK and is on board with hunting Charlie.


    Linking that to the contract discussion, it looks like TV's contract penalty does not currently exist. The penalty is that the gems become schmuckers and go to GK. TV doesn't have gems.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 324
     Post Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 5:29 pm 
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    Metallicat wrote:
    With Bill out of the command loop, and Charlie off-dish, the only risk is the choker trap. If there is a way to defuse it, and repatriation alone might be enough (but Charlie usually does stronger contingency plans), this definitely could be a recovery plan for TV.



    I am still annoyed that Ben's Moneymancy affords him no power over an expensive piece of jewelry, the very definition of Bling.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 324
     Post Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 5:56 pm 
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    OK, if the gems actually belong to Transylvito, not Gobwin Knob, then consider the following scenario:

    1) Charlescomm, thinking it is stealing GK's gems, puts the gem hoard in the hat.
    2) The hat activates to send the first 500k gem to CC through the hat.
    3) Stealing one of TV's gems triggers an automagic 1m penalty payment to TV.
    4) Benny has just gotten 500k of schmuckers that belongs to GK. The contract specifies that Benny will convert all GK money to gems.
    5) Benny gets to keep 500k, and makes a new gem. He decides to have the new gem appear in the gem hoard. Which is currently in the hat.
    6) The next gem in the hat goes to CC through the hat, triggering another 1m penalty.

    Net result: the gems stay in the hat, and TV repeatedly hoovers CC's treasury dry.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 324
     Post Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 6:00 pm 
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    So, hypothetical: Ben convinces TV to accept Charlie's terms "betraying" GK, bankrupting TV, and transferring a bunch of bats in the process. The contract then liquidates the gems from some vault in CC and gives the money to GK. TV is then on the hook for ~22k, so Ben offers the city in exchange.

    CC is now in violation of the non-agression pact by having invaded with a few dolls, one dollamancer, and bunch of bats. CC's treasury is chunked.

    TV's remaining units (now in GK) wipe out CC's units invoking no penalties.

    GK gifts TV their city back.

    The trust fund agreement approves, since the spirit of the agreement against CC was followed.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 324
     Post Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 6:19 pm 
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    Bobfromjanitorial wrote:
    What's confusing me is his use of the word "believe" instead of "know" when he says "believe our intentions are real and won't change".

    He doesn't want them to know, he wants them to believe.
    Basic carnymancy?


    It's also the whole thing going way way back to the Grand Strategy meeting that led to teaming up with TV in the first place: GK needs allies because they got too big and scary and became Public Enemy #1 which bit (and is biting) them in the butt hard.

    At the end, Parson's reasoning to get the Tool to go along with the diplomacy plan was 'every friend you make now is someone you can stab in the back later' and the Tool was like 'ok yeah that's my style.'

    Ben's smart enough to know this.

    The fresco in the last panel may be offering insight to his thoughts RE: Backstabbing. But who's? TV's been having an awful lot of backstabbing lately. Most of it laid at the foot of CC (by GK) with only some of it refuted.

    Is he gonna hit first before someone else stabs TV in the back again? And who's he gonna side with?

    Whoever's better for the survival of TV I'm guessing.

    Bonus: That makes Bonnie's understanding of CC more valuable to GK since it'll allow them to render more assistance to TV without triggering their own contract and that's probably going to count for a lot.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 324
     Post Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 6:50 pm 
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    Juroko wrote:
    A good point lloyd. The important thing I got from this is 'the gems were not GK's when they were stolen by Charlie'. If Ben can get his tower to relay that to Shirley, then we might be able to see even more damage since I believe that can be considered damaging TV. After all, the towers can only speak in truth, right? And I think the loop hole Charlie is using is 'I didn't know I was stealing from TV'. Moment they realize it, is the moment it becomes a crime.


    I think we have some separate questions here:
    1. Who owned the gems when they sat on the table?
    2. Who owns the gems now?
    3. Where are the gems?

    I think TV owned the gems when they were sitting on the table. And they're now presumably in CC. But they could have been sent somewhere else (perhaps to Jillian) and they might still belong to whoever owned them on the table until someone claims them.

    If they still belong to whoever owned them on the table, that would explain why CC isn't in breach for moving them, but then they should also still function under the contract.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 324
     Post Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:06 pm 
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    Can I just voice my appreciation of the Benneh and the gems joke?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 324
     Post Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:17 pm 
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    Juroko wrote:
    A good point lloyd. The important thing I got from this is 'the gems were not GK's when they were stolen by Charlie'. If Ben can get his tower to relay that to Shirley, then we might be able to see even more damage since I believe that can be considered damaging TV. After all, the towers can only speak in truth, right? And I think the loop hole Charlie is using is 'I didn't know I was stealing from TV'. Moment they realize it, is the moment it becomes a crime.

    This assumes that the CC-TV contract has a clause covering theft of property. It may only cover damage or attempted damage to units. We never did see that contract, IIRC, although Skyy has a copy of it.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 324
     Post Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:59 pm 
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    Jade wrote:
    Ominous wall carving, please point that sharp piece of foreshadowing away from the Moneymancer D:

    Just out of wondering, if TV were to purposefully do something to violate their contract with GK, would the stolen gems appear as shmuckers in GK's treasury? Or since being stolen, they are now considered CC's gems, and the magic of the contract wouldn't affect them? It'd be kind of cool if Benny found a way to violate the contract, GK gets it's money back, Charlie gets played, and then GK and TV remake the contract.

    It is a clever idea, but do to the intent portion of signamancy I don't think it would work. TV can't pretend to betray GK. They have to really and genuinely betray GK, or signamacy will see through it. As long as TV is planning to remake the contract with GK afterwards, they aren't really betraying them.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 324
     Post Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:23 pm 
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    I'm wondering, do we know how high GK upkeep is? Or any sides upkeep, really? If we have, I certainly can't remember it, and I have little to no idea of just how many schmuckers a side needs every turn.

    That being said, I have to imagine that GK's upkeep is relatively low for its size, due to, you know, Decryption. And the fact that its sizeable natural allies are destructively foraging in enemy territory.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 324
     Post Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:39 pm 
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    Ptorquemada wrote:
    ErebusVonMori wrote:
    Well this means GK doesn't currently need to worry about upkeep from its empty treasury. It also means Charlie has a hell of a lot less wiggle room in what demands can actually be met.

    I also suspect the Bennie is going to deliberately violate the contract to gift the gems out of Charlie's grubby mitts and straight back to GK.


    I am likewise intrigued by this potential gambit. The gems are, at the moment, in the hands of CC units, but those units are in an unled stack in a contested hex. It all comes down to what the exact rules are for that situation, but it's at least plausible that the gems may not count as CC property until those units are back in CC home territory, or at least out of an opponent-occupied hex.

    I admit that I don't have any particular reason for thinking that is the case other than the Law of Narrative Causality (specifically, the Chekov's Gun principle). It seems a shame to set up such an exploit if it doesn't get, y'know, exploited. And if that IS how it works, then the fact that it's Ben rather than Parson who is in a position to take advantage of it is a great ... er ... advantage, compared to the starting-to-become-a-cliche "but Parson doesn't know all the rules" fumble.

    Nope. The crown is a teleportation transceiver. When the newly-turned-to-CC molls put the gems into the crown, they came out in Charlescomm's gem-hoard. The molls don't have them (also, all of the molls actually involved in the stealing of the gems are now rubble, thanks to Skyy).

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 324
     Post Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 9:03 pm 
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    Sir Dr D wrote:
    Jade wrote:
    Ominous wall carving, please point that sharp piece of foreshadowing away from the Moneymancer D:

    Just out of wondering, if TV were to purposefully do something to violate their contract with GK, would the stolen gems appear as shmuckers in GK's treasury? Or since being stolen, they are now considered CC's gems, and the magic of the contract wouldn't affect them? It'd be kind of cool if Benny found a way to violate the contract, GK gets it's money back, Charlie gets played, and then GK and TV remake the contract.

    It is a clever idea, but do to the intent portion of signamancy I don't think it would work. TV can't pretend to betray GK. They have to really and genuinely betray GK, or signamacy will see through it. As long as TV is planning to remake the contract with GK afterwards, they aren't really betraying them.


    Rereading the contract, depending on the intent on signing, I am fairly confident either side can end the contract prematurely by just ripping it up and choosing to break from their obligations (with full penalties). The intention to renegotiate the contract immediately following the breach shouldn't even matter, even if they intend to accept identical terms without any actual negotiating.

    Whether the gems are still signamantically linked to the contract after CC stole them is a much dicier situation.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 324
     Post Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 9:07 pm 
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    Angband wrote:
    OK, if the gems actually belong to Transylvito, not Gobwin Knob, then consider the following scenario:

    1) Charlescomm, thinking it is stealing GK's gems, puts the gem hoard in the hat.
    2) The hat activates to send the first 500k gem to CC through the hat.
    3) Stealing one of TV's gems triggers an automagic 1m penalty payment to TV.
    4) Benny has just gotten 500k of schmuckers that belongs to GK. The contract specifies that Benny will convert all GK money to gems.
    5) Benny gets to keep 500k, and makes a new gem. He decides to have the new gem appear in the gem hoard. Which is currently in the hat.
    6) The next gem in the hat goes to CC through the hat, triggering another 1m penalty.

    Net result: the gems stay in the hat, and TV repeatedly hoovers CC's treasury dry.


    Dad of Kayla likee! :mrgreen:

    Unfortunately, the indications are that there are currently ZERO gems on the dining room table. While the theft of each gem could* have triggered a 1M Shmucker penalty, Benjamin does not appear to have been converting any Shmuckers to gems on GK's behalf (or we would see some gems on the table after Skyy finished converting the molls to gravel).

    *There's also cause to doubt that the theft of the gems counted as a penalty-triggering violation of the CC-TV contract. It was triggered when the molls engaged Skyy and Cheri in Bill's ambush, but that was a "use of force"-type violation. That this was an "assault-on the-side's-interests/assets"-type engagement that did not register with Charlie as a reduction in his treasury strongly suggests that any action initiated by CC that negatively impacted TV's interests or assets was not written into this particular contract.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 324
     Post Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 9:11 pm 
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    ErebusVonMori wrote:
    Can I just voice my appreciation of the Benneh and the gems joke?
    Yes, you may. And such appreciation is well-placed.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 324
     Post Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 9:31 pm 
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    SirHamster wrote:
    ? > Sword > Scepter

    The Pen is mightier than the Sword.

    I also find it interesting that Ben is super-imposed on the scepter-wielding ruler, making it look like the sword is backstabbing Ben. How does he feel about Caeser taking over Don?

    Page 226:
    Quote:
    He is not happy about the leadership change, but OKed alliance terms with GK and is on board with hunting Charlie.


    Linking that to the contract discussion, it looks like TV's contract penalty does not currently exist. The penalty is that the gems become schmuckers and go to GK. TV doesn't have gems.

    That was only Parson's read on Benny. The truth is more complex than that. Benny was Don's oldest friend, so he is grieving. But Benny also agrees that Jillian and Charlie are who they should be fighting.

    http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/238


    Anyway, do we know how much each gem was worth? It would be funny if there was a retroactive treasury hit for each gem stolen, and it was greater than or equal to the gems.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 324
     Post Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 11:39 pm 
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    Somehow after reading this page, I keep looking for the phrase "All about the Benny Gems".

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 324
     Post Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 1:26 am 
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    I was thinking of a possible way Benny could save Transylvito, but that it might risk losing Caesar. However, it looks like it's not built into the terms of the contract, unfortunately. Were it to contain penalties for violation, he could purposefully violate it enough times that the Transylvito treasury is emptied, and GK is granted ownership of their cities and units.

    In which case CC would, by killing Caesar, instead of risking 5m to end a side, which he can immediately recover, be risking 5m just to kill one high level warlord. The side could "secede" from GK again at a later point, after the crisis is averted.

    This move would also potentially violate his Duty and Loyalty, unless he was extremely confident that it was actually their best hope of survival.

    A lot of the other plans really hinge on the nature of that choker around Caesar's neck.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 324
     Post Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 1:35 am 
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    I did contract law with my girlfriend a little while ago and that part about not having the same understanding of a contract's wording was interesting. It was one of the conditions where a contract can be deemed void so it's nice to rule that out right from the start.

    I wonder if Signamancy allows for mutual understandings that don't match the writing. Consider a side Signing over a city with all its stationed units. The side in question says it's 700, but both sides know that it's actually 500. Will they still be able to Sign?

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