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 Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 318
 Post Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:02 pm 
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greycat wrote:
Stabbers are not Commanders. We have no reason to think a Stabber could ever be a Ruler. :stanley: :hamstard:


There's just no reasoning with these Royalists. :tv: :charlie:

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 318
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:01 pm 
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    Kismet wrote:
    greycat wrote:
    Stabbers are not Commanders. We have no reason to think a Stabber could ever be a Ruler. :stanley: :hamstard:


    There's just no reasoning with these Royalists. :tv: :charlie:


    Pikers, however, are a different story. :stanley:

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 318
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:56 pm 
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    Casewerker wrote:
    Kismet wrote:
    greycat wrote:
    Stabbers are not Commanders. We have no reason to think a Stabber could ever be a Ruler. :stanley: :hamstard:


    There's just no reasoning with these Royalists. :tv: :charlie:


    Pikers, however, are a different story. :stanley:

    Like telling them to, pike off, might result in the unexpected :P

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 318
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:15 pm 
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    Based on what is shown in that last panel, I'm still trying to figure out how this might fit into the prediction that Buck will personally prevent Wanda from entering the portal (see page 268), assuming the prediction wasn't a lie.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 318
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:57 pm 
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    MostTornBrain wrote:
    Based on what is shown in that last panel, I'm still trying to figure out how this might fit into the prediction that Buck will personally prevent Wanda from entering the portal (see page 268), assuming the prediction wasn't a lie.


    Well, it seems logical to me that if, as seems to be implied, Buck is going to fall through a portal shard because he was digging straight downward, they could probably pretty clearly see him fall through and then decide that because he did so, they shouldn't follow him through the portal, and instead go seek out another. That way they don't go through and, through a certain point of view, that's been caused by him. Maybe?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 318
     Post Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:59 am 
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    If an Archon can be promoted to Warlord, I'd think they could be promoted to Overlord. Do the Archons have Warlords?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 318
     Post Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:37 am 
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    Patterned Pike wrote:
    If an Archon can be promoted to Warlord, I'd think they could be promoted to Overlord. Do the Archons have Warlords?


    From that page where Parson was asking the decrypted Archons questions, Charlescomm had no warlords, that's why they treated Parson like a client that paid for "full service".

    So while it doesn't outright say that Archons can't be warlords, you'd think for all the Archons Charlie has at least some of them would be warlords if that was possible.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 318
     Post Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:03 am 
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    Jade wrote:
    Patterned Pike wrote:
    If an Archon can be promoted to Warlord, I'd think they could be promoted to Overlord. Do the Archons have Warlords?


    From that page where Parson was asking the decrypted Archons questions, Charlescomm had no warlords, that's why they treated Parson like a client that paid for "full service".

    So while it doesn't outright say that Archons can't be warlords, you'd think for all the Archons Charlie has at least some of them would be warlords if that was possible.

    Warlords have treasury sense. Charlescomm's treasury size is a secret to everyone but a few key Foxers.

    Were Charlie to have warlords he'd risk those warlord Archons being captured or turned and leaking the information, or some braggarted Archon spilling the beans while drunk. It is this treasury sense which is why Charlie didn't want Ivan and Claud turning to Charlescomm.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 318
     Post Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:06 am 
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    Jade wrote:
    Patterned Pike wrote:
    If an Archon can be promoted to Warlord, I'd think they could be promoted to Overlord. Do the Archons have Warlords?


    From that page where Parson was asking the decrypted Archons questions, Charlescomm had no warlords, that's why they treated Parson like a client that paid for "full service".

    So while it doesn't outright say that Archons can't be warlords, you'd think for all the Archons Charlie has at least some of them would be warlords if that was possible.

    Or possibly archon warlords, like hobgobwin heavy knights, are simply an unusual option which Charlie has never seen fit to use - as Mr. 167 just noted. Chuck's got no formal chief caster or chief warlord, so who else would have the authority to implement such a promotion?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 318
     Post Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:05 am 
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    Anomynous 167 wrote:
    Jade wrote:
    Patterned Pike wrote:
    If an Archon can be promoted to Warlord, I'd think they could be promoted to Overlord. Do the Archons have Warlords?


    From that page where Parson was asking the decrypted Archons questions, Charlescomm had no warlords, that's why they treated Parson like a client that paid for "full service".

    So while it doesn't outright say that Archons can't be warlords, you'd think for all the Archons Charlie has at least some of them would be warlords if that was possible.

    Warlords have treasury sense. Charlescomm's treasury size is a secret to everyone but a few key Foxers.

    Were Charlie to have warlords he'd risk those warlord Archons being captured or turned and leaking the information, or some braggarted Archon spilling the beans while drunk. It is this treasury sense which is why Charlie didn't want Ivan and Claud turning to Charlescomm.


    To tack onto this, Bonnie explicitly has the Leadership special, which heavily implies that she could be a Warlord if assigned thusly.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 318
     Post Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:18 am 
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    greycat wrote:
    Schadrach wrote:
    Again, peace by disbanding 99% of the population only works if everyone buys in at the same time, and can be made to never ever build up or conquer again.

    Yeah, that's the key to the "diplomatic victory" condition. You have to force every side into an indefinite, unbreakable contract that prevents anyone from breaking the peace. Otherwise, the whole mess starts all over again.


    Agreed. My point was that you can't do that by proposing everyone drop to sustainable populations up front unless you get everyone erf-wide to agree to it simultaneously, which isn't going to happen for obvious reasons.

    Since getting everyone globally to agree to do the thing simultaneously isn't going to happen, that means you need to offer a scenario where joining such a contract makes them militarily stronger at least until such time as everyone has been made to join. Which means being able to offer either sharply reduced upkeep (such as decryption) or sharply increased income for any member side (that they couldn't get otherwise), and then spreading outward to acquire new member sides.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 318
     Post Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:47 am 
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    Jade wrote:
    So while it doesn't outright say that Archons can't be warlords, you'd think for all the Archons Charlie has at least some of them would be warlords if that was possible.


    I would say that, considering how Foxers were 'top' Archons and yet didn't have any command structure, and how Charlie had promise with them that his side would not have any other units (or wait specifically commanders? can't remember exactly and not really relevant to this point), he specifically did not want units that could give Orders (Orders whose power came from unit being commander, not orders from Charlescomm Archon Foxer/AAA/AA/A structure) aside from himself. Also since they can provide leadership without being warlord, there is very little benefit to promoting one, and cost of it (both initial and increased upkeep) makes it simply not worth it. All that in addition to potential threat of revealing treasury mentioned by other posters, but I would say upkeep cost VS benefit would be primary factor to not promote any warlords.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 318
     Post Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:23 am 
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    Adept wrote:
    I sure hope Marie doesn’t get her wish. That future sounds both terrible and boring for us readers.


    There is one way that a FAQ Wanda conquering the MK does not end in with her in charge of an OP side of casters.
    What if once every caster has been decypted Maggie (possibly with help from Big Think) cuts the H-Strings linking them all to Wanda. Theoretically this would leave them free from Wanda’s control and able to make their own decisions (can a unit turn barbarian of its own choice?). Also this could lead to a new golden age in the MK as they would no longer need to worry about upkeep, or they could just shut themselves off from the rest of Erfworld.
    Regardless I think this is one way a mass MK decryption storyline could work out quite interesting.


    Last edited by Xavier on Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 318
     Post Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:54 am 
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    Schadrach wrote:
    coineineagh wrote:
    That's basically the distinction between acquiring nuclear weaponry through alliances and trade, or by theft and espionage.


    No, it's more like having one of those McDonald's "free food" cards (a handful of people have been granted cards allowing free food from McDonald's as much and as often as they'd like) versus robbing a grocery store. In both cases you can get a lot of calories (juice) without paying for them, though one has a more limited menu and is, you know, not a crime.

    coineineagh wrote:
    If your focus is on the environmental damage done from actual usage, the biggest user is the most ethically problematic. Whether Wanda's attunement gives her 'permission' to decrypt or not, her unrestricted exploitation of the resource is the main issue.


    Except that Charlie has been stealing massive amounts of juice every turn for huge spans of time so we'd expect someone would have noticed the environmental damage occurring over that time. I suspect that "the environment" is another case of Shirley applying stupidworld thinking patterns to erf where they might not exactly fit (like perceiving Vanna as the heir's mother when that's not how it works in erf).

    Related: Why wasn't Shirley worried about the harm caused by using the arkendish at *all*? Why doesn't Jed fret about Stanley wielding the arkenhammer meaning his side is always stealing power from the source? Because it isn't being *stolen*, and that's the important part.

    coineineagh wrote:
    Seeing from what mathamancy teaches, there is always a cost involved somewhere.


    When wielding a literal tool of the titans, who is paying that cost? I'd argue that the titans paid for the tools back when they created them, but then they're using the house's money.

    I'd argue that the focus on the concept of a 'crime' might not be the correct focus, if the Temples care about the total juice in the source. But they may not. Shirley did ask about 'permission', indicating a form of permitted use is possible.

    But, the way mathamancy considers all resources comparable, if not always freely exchangeable, may mean that Shirley assumed the utilized juice was being reimbursed into the Source by some form of compensation. But it was not. If so, permission goes by the assumption that there's a mechanism in place to restore balance... There is not one for the portal hack, and neither is there one for the Arkentools.

    Regarding the Arkentools, these items are by definition special. They may use no juice at all. But if they do drain it from the Source, I foresee a reckoning coming for the Tools. And their side's temple is not on their side, and not allowing any excuses for misuse of the Source's juice. I can imagine decryption as costing a significant one-time jolt of juice for bringing a character back, as well as hidden upkeep in the form of juice. Wanda may have no idea how much debt she has racked up, using the Arkenpliers. And I can see Jed being compelled to dust all those decrypted by cutting off the juice drainage. We know that upkeep goes by heartstrings, and conveys juice even for non-casters. Temples manage a side's heartstrings, although Wanda's decrypted seem to be connected to her. Still, she herself is connected to Jed for her own upkeep...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 318
     Post Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:51 am 
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    qq wrote:
    Jade wrote:
    So while it doesn't outright say that Archons can't be warlords, you'd think for all the Archons Charlie has at least some of them would be warlords if that was possible.


    I would say that, considering how Foxers were 'top' Archons and yet didn't have any command structure, and how Charlie had promise with them that his side would not have any other units (or wait specifically commanders? can't remember exactly and not really relevant to this point), he specifically did not want units that could give Orders (Orders whose power came from unit being commander, not orders from Charlescomm Archon Foxer/AAA/AA/A structure) aside from himself. Also since they can provide leadership without being warlord, there is very little benefit to promoting one, and cost of it (both initial and increased upkeep) makes it simply not worth it. All that in addition to potential threat of revealing treasury mentioned by other posters, but I would say upkeep cost VS benefit would be primary factor to not promote any warlords.

    Even so, it is odd that he didn't promote the FFF to warlords, since they can already check his treasury in the database. Maybe there'd be an expectation that one of them would then have to be a chief warlord, but we know that a side doesn't always have one of those, and I think he could just reason with the archeons why he'd not pick one.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 318
     Post Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:05 am 
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    My <guess> is that Charlie has chosen not to promote any Archons to Warlord, for reasons that make sense to him. It's not impossible. It's just something he doesn't want to do.

    Which makes me wonder what happens if an Archon with the Leadership special is promoted to Warlord. As a Warlord, her Leadership would normally equal her Level. All the Level-up points that previously went into Leadership -- do they add to her total Leadership bonus? Or are they just wasted? Or do they get rerolled?

    If they stack with the normal Warlord Leadership bonus, then an Archon Warlord could be extremely powerful.

    </guess>

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 318
     Post Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:30 am 
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    My guess as to why no Archons get promoted to Warlord is because they can't take that promotion. They are a special type of unit, with leadership and the ability to command stacks that go with it, but aren't a normal commander unit like casters and warlords.

    Now, could they be assigned to the Chief Warlord position? Wanda discussed having the living dolls of Max appointed. They'd lack leadership stat, which would make it a bad choice in combat, but it implies it could have been done anyway.

    Same for a Caster in that role. Wanda can lead uncroaked with a bonus, so she could serve as Chief Warlord for them, or Decrypted.

    Instead, Ansom was CW and got to add his bonus to hers when leading. Far more effective than she could have been as her own CW.

    So hypothetically, Charlie could appoint an Archon CW, but as they aren't Warlords their leadership bonus wouldn't apply to their side.

    Plus Charlie is sort of his own CW with the Arkendish bonus given to his Archons.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 318
     Post Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:33 pm 
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    Metallicat wrote:
    My guess as to why no Archons get promoted to Warlord is because they can't take that promotion. They are a special type of unit, with leadership and the ability to command stacks that go with it, but aren't a normal commander unit like casters and warlords.

    Now, could they be assigned to the Chief Warlord position? Wanda discussed having the living dolls of Max appointed. They'd lack leadership stat, which would make it a bad choice in combat, but it implies it could have been done anyway.

    Same for a Caster in that role. Wanda can lead uncroaked with a bonus, so she could serve as Chief Warlord for them, or Decrypted.

    Instead, Ansom was CW and got to add his bonus to hers when leading. Far more effective than she could have been as her own CW.

    So hypothetically, Charlie could appoint an Archon CW, but as they aren't Warlords their leadership bonus wouldn't apply to their side.

    Plus Charlie is sort of his own CW with the Arkendish bonus given to his Archons.

    I mostly agree with this. I tend to assume that something which doesn't ever seem to happen can't normally happen. Because we've never seen an Archon as a Warlord of any type, I assume they can't be Warlords. Because only Commanders have ever been an Heir or Ruler, I assume the Heir and Ruler must be Commanders.

    Lots of things are possible in a fantasy setting, especially one with wizards (and even more, Carnymancers!). But I'm assuming there is a rule here that would need to be broken, just because it's the only thing we've ever seen in like a decade of Erfworld. The weight of that continuity is pretty high.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 318
     Post Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:54 pm 
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    twhitt wrote:
    ... Because only Commanders have ever been an Heir or Ruler, I assume the Heir and Ruler must be Commanders.


    that part is absurd, especially since we know that pikers are probably like Stabbers and we know that Stanley the plaid was promoted to Chief warlord AND heir of Gobwing Knob, and he is currently the overlord. So no, there is no hard limit stopping a stabber to become Ruler. Even if it ain't ideal.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 318
     Post Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:15 pm 
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    Cinder39134 wrote:
    MostTornBrain wrote:
    Based on what is shown in that last panel, I'm still trying to figure out how this might fit into the prediction that Buck will personally prevent Wanda from entering the portal (see page 268), assuming the prediction wasn't a lie.


    Well, it seems logical to me that if, as seems to be implied, Buck is going to fall through a portal shard because he was digging straight downward, they could probably pretty clearly see him fall through and then decide that because he did so, they shouldn't follow him through the portal, and instead go seek out another. That way they don't go through and, through a certain point of view, that's been caused by him. Maybe?

    The problem with this theory is that Buck's not the one digging. Joe is. So how is Buck, currently up at the top of the tunnel, going to be the one to personally stop Wanda, when Joe is about to wind up in a far better position to?

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