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 Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 317
 Post Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:26 am 
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Darkstar7613 wrote:
I think you may have hit on the "Final Solution" that Parson needs to "fix" war in Erfworld. If the purpose of the endless war in Erfworld is for control of the limited resources to maintain upkeep for a side, then removing upkeep removes the impetus for war.

Decrypted have no upkeep. Decrypt an entire side and you have a side of permanent positive income (assuming the basic rule of any TBG that a city by itself generates more profit than it costs in upkeep so that it can support additional units.)

The question becomes - at what point does Parson get this "big picture" view, and can he find a way to implement it globally?

Personally, I would think linking an attuned Wanda and the Arkenpliers (unlimted decryption) with the Arkendish and an attuned user... preferably NOT Charlie... (unlimted range of link/spell casting) would allow for some form of global mass-kill/mass-decryption (a Thinkamancer linked to the 'Dish to instacroak at range all units followed by Wanda's global Ctrl-Alt-Del).

It might be possible without the worldwide genocide. We've already seen that the 'pliers can manipulate strings when repatriating Lilith, so it stands to reason she could manipulate all strings everywhere, or at least many at a time, if linked with the 'dish. She might be able to rewire living units into decrypted without, you know, slaughtering them. Or if not into "decrypted," per se, then the important aspect of them - no upkeep. "Deupkeeped."

You're still left with the problem of needing Wanda plugged into a link forever as a string-manipulating factory/goddess to deupkeep any new unit that gets popped. But what if she could manipulate the things doing the popping, side-wide and world-wide, so that any new unit popped is already upkeep-free? She would need access to, say, the living embodiment of the side's capital city that controls all strings for all units of the side and accesses the Source for unit creation. Yes - what if Wanda could "decrypt" the towers? All she would need then is for someone to go around and awaken them all...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 317
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:36 am 
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    JadedDragoon wrote:
    As others have pointed out, Rob & Co are still figuring out the new format. Feedback is useful (and what this thread is for even) but no need to beat a dead horse.

    C'mon JD... you've been here long enough to know that not only is the beating of expired equines the national past time of this forum, it's been advanced to like, an Olympic-caliber event. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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    Last edited by Darkstar7613 on Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 317
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:43 am 
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    lordfisch wrote:
    Darkstar7613 wrote:
    I think you may have hit on the "Final Solution" that Parson needs to "fix" war in Erfworld. If the purpose of the endless war in Erfworld is for control of the limited resources to maintain upkeep for a side, then removing upkeep removes the impetus for war.

    Decrypted have no upkeep. Decrypt an entire side and you have a side of permanent positive income (assuming the basic rule of any TBG that a city by itself generates more profit than it costs in upkeep so that it can support additional units.)

    The question becomes - at what point does Parson get this "big picture" view, and can he find a way to implement it globally?

    Personally, I would think linking an attuned Wanda and the Arkenpliers (unlimted decryption) with the Arkendish and an attuned user... preferably NOT Charlie... (unlimted range of link/spell casting) would allow for some form of global mass-kill/mass-decryption (a Thinkamancer linked to the 'Dish to instacroak at range all units followed by Wanda's global Ctrl-Alt-Del).

    It might be possible without the worldwide genocide. We've already seen that the 'pliers can manipulate strings when repatriating Lilith, so it stands to reason she could manipulate all strings everywhere, or at least many at a time, if linked with the 'dish. She might be able to rewire living units into decrypted without, you know, slaughtering them. Or if not into "decrypted," per se, then the important aspect of them - no upkeep. "Deupkeeped."

    You're still left with the problem of needing Wanda plugged into a link forever as a string-manipulating factory/goddess to deupkeep any new unit that gets popped. But what if she could manipulate the things doing the popping, side-wide and world-wide, so that any new unit popped is already upkeep-free? She would need access to, say, the living embodiment of the side's capital city that controls all strings for all units of the side and accesses the Source for unit creation. Yes - what if Wanda could "decrypt" the towers? All she would need then is for someone to go around and awaken them all...

    Well, I was under the impression that decrypted units don't decay/fade like normal units do - there would be no need to replace them with fresh units, so no need for cities to actually produce units.

    And since there's no known means of sexual reproduction in Erf, there's no "new units" being popped that way either.

    But, if we follow the idea that decrypted units will eventually age and need replacement, then we need to Carny a side's capital tower to be able to pop decrypted units, and pass that ability down to its subordinate cities... but I'm not sure that would work, as the decrypted are specifically string-tied to the Arkenpliers...

    Room for speculation: We know Wanda "felt" Ossomer turn back - but what did/does that do to his string? Was it still held by the 'Pliers, or did it automagically unravel from them and re-bind itself to Spacerock? Can an Erf unit REALLY decide for itself where its string should call home?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 317
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:54 am 
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    Darkstar7613 wrote:
    lordfisch wrote:
    Darkstar7613 wrote:
    I think you may have hit on the "Final Solution" that Parson needs to "fix" war in Erfworld. If the purpose of the endless war in Erfworld is for control of the limited resources to maintain upkeep for a side, then removing upkeep removes the impetus for war.

    Decrypted have no upkeep. Decrypt an entire side and you have a side of permanent positive income (assuming the basic rule of any TBG that a city by itself generates more profit than it costs in upkeep so that it can support additional units.)

    The question becomes - at what point does Parson get this "big picture" view, and can he find a way to implement it globally?

    Personally, I would think linking an attuned Wanda and the Arkenpliers (unlimted decryption) with the Arkendish and an attuned user... preferably NOT Charlie... (unlimted range of link/spell casting) would allow for some form of global mass-kill/mass-decryption (a Thinkamancer linked to the 'Dish to instacroak at range all units followed by Wanda's global Ctrl-Alt-Del).

    It might be possible without the worldwide genocide. We've already seen that the 'pliers can manipulate strings when repatriating Lilith, so it stands to reason she could manipulate all strings everywhere, or at least many at a time, if linked with the 'dish. She might be able to rewire living units into decrypted without, you know, slaughtering them. Or if not into "decrypted," per se, then the important aspect of them - no upkeep. "Deupkeeped."

    You're still left with the problem of needing Wanda plugged into a link forever as a string-manipulating factory/goddess to deupkeep any new unit that gets popped. But what if she could manipulate the things doing the popping, side-wide and world-wide, so that any new unit popped is already upkeep-free? She would need access to, say, the living embodiment of the side's capital city that controls all strings for all units of the side and accesses the Source for unit creation. Yes - what if Wanda could "decrypt" the towers? All she would need then is for someone to go around and awaken them all...

    Well, I was under the impression that decrypted units don't decay/fade like normal units do - there would be no need to replace them with fresh units, so no need for cities to actually produce units.

    And since there's no known means of sexual reproduction in Erf, there's no "new units" being popped that way either.

    But, if we follow the idea that decrypted units will eventually age and need replacement, then we need to Carny a side's capital tower to be able to pop decrypted units, and pass that ability down to its subordinate cities... but I'm not sure that would work, as the decrypted are specifically string-tied to the Arkenpliers...

    Room for speculation: We know Wanda "felt" Ossomer turn back - but what did/does that do to his string? Was it still held by the 'Pliers, or did it automagically unravel from them and re-bind itself to Spacerock? Can an Erf unit REALLY decide for itself where its string should call home?

    I didn't think sides had a choice about whether or not to pop anything at all, only what it was they wanted. Could just be that no side has ever not had to pop anything, what with unending worldwide war and all, so we don't know for sure. Also, it's implied that even though each city pops units, the capital/tower still has a hand in it given the clues we've heard from Huehue.

    Even if all units do become "immortal," I'm sure they can still die and would need to be repopulated. People fall off things, tunnels collapse, feral units and other naturals can be dangerous, sides and individuals can still get into disagreements and fight over things, Jillian has a temper, etc.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 317
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:06 am 
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    Cinder39134 wrote:
    Carl wrote:
    I'm too tired to remember a specific source atm but i'm pretty sure we have an example of ruler orders crossing hex boundaries somwhere. Now how complex they can be, thats another question.


    Here? That link seems to indicate that the orders can be as complex as you like, but you don't necessarily get two-way communication like you would with in-person orders. So Charlie'd be at best giving orders completely blind if he's cut off from the Arkendish, and there's no guarantee that he could even tell the Molls to target a specific unit at all given that we know that you can't give complex orders to every type of unit.


    There was also the time Stanley ordered "everybody's favorite Archon" (aka Lilith) to stop killing CC units and call Parson. http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/101

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 317
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:29 am 
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    Darkstar7613 wrote:
    Well, I was under the impression that decrypted units don't decay/fade like normal units do - there would be no need to replace them with fresh units, so no need for cities to actually produce units.

    And since there's no known means of sexual reproduction in Erf, there's no "new units" being popped that way either.

    Erfworld units never die of old age, no matter how bad their Signamancy becomes (or at least nobody has ever heard of it happening). But units may still die by accident, or be murdered for the same reasons Stupidworld units murder each other. So there'll always need to be new units popped on a regular basis. Probably not as many as there are now, of course, since presumably the Erfworld-peace-time croak rate should be dramatically reduced.

    lordfisch wrote:
    I didn't think sides had a choice about whether or not to pop anything at all, only what it was they wanted.

    Oh Titans, not this debate again. :roll:

    **IF** it turns out that cities can't just turn off unit-popping for some reason, they can just pop nonsentient food-animals and harvest them for rations.

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     Post Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:48 am 
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    Darkstar7613 wrote:
    JadedDragoon wrote:
    As others have pointed out, Rob & Co are still figuring out the new format. Feedback is useful (and what this thread is for even) but no need to beat a dead horse.

    C'mon JD... you've been here long enough to know that not only is the beating of expired equines the national past time of this forum, it's been advanced to like, an Olympic-caliber event. :lol: :lol: :lol:

    That's very true, and I've certainly contributed to my share of flogging those cadaverous horses. :lol: Given the circumstances, however, I am hoping we can all let go of some of the petty comments and bickering. Maybe we can all decide to err on the side of kindness and respect, and not try to pick apart every little detail of the comic we love and support.

    That's not saying, "don't disagree," for heaven's sake. That would be like saying, "don't breathe." ;) Just maybe we can make an effort to do it in a more respectful way.

    For instance, it's my opinion that the first panel was fabulous. It had a lot going on, but that's what I'd expected when the wayward warlord finally came face to face with his outraged overlord. Poor Parson's plan had floundered, fizzled, and failed, after all.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 317
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:50 pm 
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    The ghost of Secretariat races across the forum of Erfworld. The twolls of Gobwyn Knob beat it with clubs as it rides the gauntlet through their cities. Over the hills and through forests it rides, heartless chest effortlessly pounding the hexes. The archons of Charlescomm use Synergy attacks to ward the phantasmal steed from their lands. The brave folk of HobbiTM show up in force, using rocks and sticks to beat that horse all the way to Jitterati, where the sleepless sentinels kick Secretariat's ghost straight to Carpool. Where they give it a ride, but verbally debate the value of its journey, carefully rehashing every point and counterpoint. Finally, the ghost is home, Transylvito. It hammers its ethereal hooves on the cobblestones of the main way, rides straight up to the gate and passes through. The molls of Transylvito would be happy to beat that mean old dead thing up, but their master recently switched his allegiance, and well, now they're all dead. With no one to stop the menacing equestrian poltergeist, it tore through the mansion and ran right up to Bill.
    "Oh boop," was all he said.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 317
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:24 pm 
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    Darkstar7613 wrote:
    I think you may have hit on the "Final Solution" that Parson needs to "fix" war in Erfworld. If the purpose of the endless war in Erfworld is for control of the limited resources to maintain upkeep for a side, then removing upkeep removes the impetus for war.

    It's right to put that in quotes because it would not be a final solution to the war in Erfworld. What it would do is severely limit it (effectively pushing Charlie Comm back into the middle ages) but it wouldn't address Erfworlder's motivations.

    Personally I think that would be rather dull and we'd be back to drawl and crawl. I hope this is more of a survivable heart attack than total death to source use. Could Charlie get rid of Shirley, for example, and go back to his old ways - devious and deadly?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 317
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:41 pm 
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    Thanks to all the people who corrected / added to my previous comment. I am assuming that, if a unit enters a capital portal which is connected to a portal with the collar inactivated that the unit can choose to go to the fractured panes (below bedrock) or the topside. Based on that, who can get to where:

    Faq:
    OUT: Delphi. I am assuming that she knows, and, even if she doesn't, Jed just showed the ability to figure it out, so IACFYS's tower can do the same.
    IN: Any caster. Most notably, Wanda or Big Think.

    GK:
    OUT: Parson, Ace, or Sizemore.
    IN: Any caster. Most notably, Wanda or Big Think.

    CC:
    OUT: Any unit (portal is hacked).
    IN: Any unit (portal is hacked). Most traps are now down, but only CC knows that at the moment. The only units who might dare are Wanda (still thinks she is fated), Big Think (powerful enough to get away with it), and Parson (if and only if he can hack the Spacerock portal and bring his army).

    So again, I think the first to contact is likely to decide a lot. Wanda gets to Spacerock or GK gets to Wanda = the mistress of decryption is back. Big Think gets to Spacerock or vice versa = hacked portal. Delphi gets to Wanda = Delphi tells Wanda about her Fate to serve Faq. Shouldn't change much, except Wanda tries to go along with Fate. I don't think anyone will go in or out of CC to start with - Charlie just watched six archons drop dead when they tried to attack Wanda and no-one is crazy enough to walk into Charlie's base until the situation changes significantly.

    There's also the issue of knowledge: Wanda is the only one with enough knowledge (thanks to Ivan) to figure out most of how the broken portals work. If she knows about Spacerock's hacked portal, her first Duty should be to jump through and reunite with the Pliers. So it looks like to me the most likely interaction (ability + knowledge) is Wanda walking through the Spacerock portal.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 317
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:21 pm 
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    JadedDragoon wrote:
    As others have pointed out, Rob & Co are still figuring out the new format. Feedback is useful (and what this thread is for even) but no need to beat a dead horse.


    If a topic is a dead horse, does that make us all Croakamancers? :D

    Edit: @Unmaker, I think you mean Marie? Also, any unit (Caster/Non-Caster/Doll/etc) can go through any portal to leave the MK. That aspect doesn't need to be hacked.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 317
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:53 pm 
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    Unmaker wrote:
    I am assuming that, if a unit enters a capital portal which is connected to a portal with the collar inactivated that the unit can choose to go to the fractured panes (below bedrock) or the topside.

    This is something that was discussed before but I'm not sure what the conclusion was. For example, how did Charlie get his Archons through to ambush Wanda after the portal was smashed? Or did he? My memory ain't great.

    But I'd say that if the portal column is smashed then the topside portal must be deactivated, since the topside portal draws source up from below through the portal column. I don't remember seeing a drawn confirmation of this - what a deactivated topside portal looks like, so I may just be sprouting rubbish (has been known to happen).

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 317
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:05 pm 
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    alowe wrote:
    Unmaker wrote:
    I am assuming that, if a unit enters a capital portal which is connected to a portal with the collar inactivated that the unit can choose to go to the fractured panes (below bedrock) or the topside.

    This is something that was discussed before but I'm not sure what the conclusion was. For example, how did Charlie get his Archons through to ambush Wanda after the portal was smashed? Or did he? My memory ain't great.

    But I'd say that if the portal column is smashed then the topside portal must be deactivated, since the topside portal draws source up from below through the portal column. I don't remember seeing a drawn confirmation of this - what a deactivated topside portal looks like, so I may just be sprouting rubbish (has been known to happen).

    Yeah, it's rubbish. ;) Tondelayo described the method for getting through the portal on Page 263. It was a big update, so just scroll down until you see the drawing of Tondy and Chickpea, then read the section that starts, "Getting through the broken portal..."

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 317
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:35 pm 
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    alowe wrote:
    Darkstar7613 wrote:
    I think you may have hit on the "Final Solution" that Parson needs to "fix" war in Erfworld. If the purpose of the endless war in Erfworld is for control of the limited resources to maintain upkeep for a side, then removing upkeep removes the impetus for war.

    It's right to put that in quotes because it would not be a final solution to the war in Erfworld. What it would do is severely limit it (effectively pushing Charlie Comm back into the middle ages) but it wouldn't address Erfworlder's motivations.

    Personally I think that would be rather dull and we'd be back to drawl and crawl. I hope this is more of a survivable heart attack than total death to source use. Could Charlie get rid of Shirley, for example, and go back to his old ways - devious and deadly?


    No upkeep means you can make bigger armies to conquer the world with. As far as I know, it isn't the rate of popping units which is the problem with unlimited expansion. It is the reduction in income from each city as the size of the side increases. No upkeep means no worries about income.

    Whichever side starts with the most production can snowball it to even more through conquests. Eventually, some side would have armies so big they could overwhelm everyone else.

    That is what GK did with Wanda up to the Spacerock conquest. Decryption is pretty much a doomsday power if left to run unchecked.

    Parson has to change the way Erfworlders think about war. Working to establish peace is not a new idea -- Banhammer of Faq dreamed of it -- but succeeding in making peace alliances has yet to happen. Parson (and Charlie according to Olive) thought about making a global peace contract, which could end war if the contracts have no sneaky loopholes to beat them.

    Fixing the economy could help, but maybe there are more ways to do that than just adjusting upkeep. Still, I think that Decryption might be very useful for the "Peacekeeper" side/force which needs military power in order to go after any rogue sides.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 317
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:08 am 
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    Merilynne wrote:
    Yeah, it's rubbish. ;) Tondelayo described the method for getting through the portal on Page 263. It was a big update, so just scroll down until you see the drawing of Tondy and Chickpea, then read the section that starts, "Getting through the broken portal..."

    Ha, the good thing about saying, "I might be speaking rubbish", is you are always right with at least something :lol:

    So, now I'm confused. Do the state of the portal columns effect the topside portal at all?
    If not then what is their relationship?

    And, has there ever been a drawing of a disabled portal? I've got a feeling there has been.

    Pah! We can search by images and we can search by words, but we are yet to be able to use a description to create an image to do an image search...

    Metallicat wrote:
    No upkeep means you can make bigger armies to conquer the world with. As far as I know, it isn't the rate of popping units which is the problem with unlimited expansion. It is the reduction in income from each city as the size of the side increases. No upkeep means no worries about income.

    Charlie has just had the lights turned out, so no more free unlimited source for him. Does this effect his ability to pay his side's upkeep? He doesn't seem to have many units, as his units, the Archons, are very high ability assets, meaning he doesn't need so many (or at least, didn't).

    I started talking about the source and you went on to upkeep. Is there some connection I'm missing here? I know people have speculated some kind of possible connection before, but I don't remember seeing that depicted in the comic.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 317
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:35 am 
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    alowe wrote:
    So, now I'm confused. Do the state of the portal columns effect the topside portal at all?

    Going through a broken-collar portal from the city-side may put you in Portal Park, or below the bedrock.

    The process was invented and described by Tondelayo in the update Merilynne linked to, and which I've now linked to again.

    Quote:
    And, has there ever been a drawing of a disabled portal? I've got a feeling there has been.

    What do you mean by a "disabled portal"? There's a portal ceasing to be a portal at the end of book 2, when Parson was trapped in Spacerock after Jetstone transferred their capital back to the City of Jetstone.

    Quote:
    Charlie has just had the lights turned out, so no more free unlimited source for him. Does this effect his ability to pay his side's upkeep? He doesn't seem to have many units, as his units, the Archons, are very high ability assets, meaning he doesn't need so many (or at least, didn't).

    Archons are relatively expensive units, and he has several hundred of them.

    That said, losing power to his traps and doodads has no effect on his massive treasury. He may not be able to defend himself against attacks (traps are disabled), and he may not be able to entertain visitors on Level 40 (no power to the slot machines or whatever), which may affect his income, but Charlie is not hurtin' for shmuckers. He can support his Archons for a very long time just on his stockpiled treasury alone, even if he has no client payments coming in.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 317
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:39 am 
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    greycat wrote:
    alowe wrote:
    So, now I'm confused. Do the state of the portal columns effect the topside portal at all?

    Going through a broken-collar portal from the city-side may put you in Portal Park, or below the bedrock.

    The process was invented and described by Tondelayo in the update Merilynne linked to, and which I've now linked to again.

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    And, has there ever been a drawing of a disabled portal? I've got a feeling there has been.

    What do you mean by a "disabled portal"? There's a portal ceasing to be a portal at the end of book 2, when Parson was trapped in Spacerock after Jetstone transferred their capital back to the City of Jetstone.


    Also check Digdoug's account of looking for his home's portal in the MK.

    A broken collar doesn't change anything about the portal topside working or not. To be honest, I even wonder what the collar is there for in the first place, and who placed 'em there.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 317
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:40 am 
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    greycat wrote:
    I did not realize, until people here pointed it out, that the last line of the last panel, "Think I'm missin' a piece, too." is spoken by Jed. Have we ever seen him drop the "g" from an "-ing" word before? Is he starting to pick up Parson's speech patterns?

    Oh, also "Somethin' happened." in the first panel. Hmm.

    Turns out I was simply not remembering correctly.

    Jed drops the "g" in older updates too. For example, Waterin' down our drinks (page 298).

    I'm relieved. I was worried that Jed had suffered some subtle kind of brain damage, but now I think it's a false alarm.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 317
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:09 pm 
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    DeanXeL wrote:
    A broken collar doesn't change anything about the portal topside working or not. To be honest, I even wonder what the collar is there for in the first place, and who placed 'em there.

    Agreed. I have not seen or read anything in the comments or the comic that explains their purpose at all. Since the topside portal doesn't need them to function, they seem completely superfluous.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 317
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:29 pm 
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    alowe wrote:
    DeanXeL wrote:
    A broken collar doesn't change anything about the portal topside working or not. To be honest, I even wonder what the collar is there for in the first place, and who placed 'em there.

    Agreed. I have not seen or read anything in the comments or the comic that explains their purpose at all. Since the topside portal doesn't need them to function, they seem completely superfluous.


    When the portal collar is broken we get portal shards under bedrock. So that seems to be the purpose... somehow containing the portal energy and directing it.

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