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 Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 304
 Post Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:52 pm 
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Merilynn,
that could very well turn out to be a correct speculation. It neatly fits together pieces of the puzzle with no obvious reasons for why it wouldn't fit. I wouldn't bet against it, and I have amassed a bit of Quatloos in the betting thread, mainly by betting against theories I found silly. Have some Schmuckers!

Oh and I for one enjoy the chaotic speed-chess. I don't find it that implausible that Ceasar and Ben let Bill cast. They're stressed and when in stress people fall back on what they think they know, in this case that Bill is creepy but a useful caster, whose speciality is dolls and equipment. And at the same time Jed is distracting Jack and Maggie. On this page, Charlie - believing Parson is gone - slows down the play to maximize the gain. Which will bite him when Parson starts giving orders. And on it goes, the pieces are finally falling and creating a delightful mess.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 304
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:09 pm 
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    Gathrun wrote:
    So do we take from this that the towers know each other? They at least know of each other, which we've already seen from Jed thinking the others will be mad at him. So then they existed before even if not manifested, but was there ways to know each other? I guess that may have been brought up before in Jed's introduction where they talked about cities in general.

    So some more unlikeable Charlie scheming coming up. Plenty of open options here. Must have a great option in mind to not take the bird in the hand though, which seems pretty sizable. Or is this the classic 'villian' mistake of just not pulling the trigger.


    Good call on the towers. Maybe they are truly ancient, a property of capital cities which was disabled long ago. Jed's appearance owed nothing to the obvious input of the casters, Stanley, or the side. Nor did it resemble the features of Spacerock.

    Makes me wonder what their origins are. Note that no current capital is owned by their original side, but TV's tower does have a bat connection.


    Is Charlie making a mistake? Shirley is pushing him to be the hero of his story. But her values are skewed, based on the presumption that he already is the hero.

    Original plan: Get my money back. Tie up loose ends of GK casters and TV enemies, Caesar in particular. Collect useful casters, Bill especially.

    Rocks fall plan gets all that except loses Bill and Vanna. Acceptable losses, but not heroic.

    So can Charlie get an even better deal? He can ask for everything he wants, and if he doesn't get it, has a rocks fall-back plan. Pretty good bargaining position.

    What could be better? Charlie, savior of the royal side of TV for the rightful heir. Loyal agent Vanna to spread the word of his good deeds. Bill as mad scientist agent, under his thumb so no secrets slip. Money, of course, but he can gift some to the new heir.

    Caesar gone, GK casters prisoners or gone. Ben either tamed or gone. Nice non-disclosure contract so nobody tells secret stories.

    Will the Tower take a deal that keeps the side alive but betrays Caesar and his alliance?

    Charlie frankly would be just as happy if it refused.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 304
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:12 pm 
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    Metallicat wrote:
    Makes me wonder what their origins are. Note that no current capital is owned by their original side, but TV's tower does have a bat connection.

    Yeah, that's one of the interesting things here. TV's tower/temple actually matches the Signamancy of Transylvito. Or at least, more closely than any others we've seen. No idea what that means, but I'm sure it will mean something.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 304
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:15 pm 
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    Heh, I just noticed the Titans carved into that building. Nice touch.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 304
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:21 pm 
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    Metallicat wrote:
    Collect useful casters, Bill especially.


    LOL.

    Can you imagine HOW INCREDIBLY HAPPY Bill would be if Charlie collected him and brought him to live in CharlesComm? With hundreds of archons around in their short little skirts??

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 304
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:31 pm 
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    Gathrun wrote:
    Blarney Fife wrote:
    I can't believe a single enemy caster was able to capture a stacked warlord in his own base.

    Or that nobody else in the stack slaughtered that caster outright. Not a single bat moved.

    I don't get how this is happening.


    Treachery at its finest. When you have access to the one lynchpin, you are vulnerable. THus why duty is important.

    Maggie and Jack are out of juice. In this instance, the contract penalty is well worth taking, but how would they fight? Ben has juice and is a commander so could try something, but that doesn't help unless ending Bill also ends the effects of the necklace. Caesar still dies, side still ends, CC and two GK units are present in a neutral city. Bats are scout units, so don't autoattack, but they are outside the room with the doors closed judging from the last strip. And there is no commander to order them to attack even the dolls.


    Timing matters. Ben spots the problem, but has to figure out a useful action in seconds. Before he acts, the Tower gets involved. Charlie is on dish and solves the immediate problem with a quick capture order.

    Not enough time for smart orders. Could Ben have lobbed a shot at Bill? What if that failed to save Caesar? What if the new contract would make such an attack fatal for the side? (I don't think that is a problem, but Ben can't know).

    Can Ben give orders to the bats? I think so, but what orders would be useful?

    Maggie and Jack can rush Bill, but would have to fight the dolls, and the contract penalty. About the only sure thing they can do is screen Ben, so any attack on him would cost Charlie. Bats turned to GK under Jack would be able to help. Unless, the auto engagement would cost GK fatal penalties.


    On the deeper side, one caster in Spacerock was able to trap a superior army with a single spell. Vanna has Charlie backing up the impossible Kingworld spell. We don't know if Bill pulled this off using only his own power, but I doubt it.

    Linking to Charlie makes any caster a serious threat, but despite Parson's warning about Vanna, it wasn't obvious that Bill could get the same boost.


    One silver lining: Charlie has one lynchpin too, in Bill. He is the only commander in all of TV. The dolls and molls lack leadership. I don't know how much remote control Charlie can do with them, but I doubt he can direct them like a proper commander.

    So if Ben and the rest can come up with a one shot attack on Bill, they can take it even if all the dolls are now enemies. Can that save Caesar? Freeing him is easy, stopping the pendant trap from finishing him off harder.

    If Bill brings in an army of molls and dolls, the casters won't have much chance in a fight. Any smart moves have to happen right away, or not at all.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 304
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:36 pm 
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    Merilynne wrote:
    Surfal wrote:
    <pretend a bunch of various posts regarding Olive Branch as an example of a captured ruler are quoted here>

    Judy Gale was the ruler. Olive was chief caster.


    Judy Gale abdicated. Olive was her designated heir. Olive became Overlady.

    Indeed. It actually was why Olive Branch was trying to get Jillian to croak Judy, because she knew that once Judy left Erfworld, she would be the one targeted by the prophecy. In fact, I'm pretty sure she knew that the prophecy was about her, not Judy.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 304
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:03 pm 
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    Polvane the eraser wrote:
    Also, did Shirley just refer to Bill as the comic relief? In what kind of weird Stagemancy and perspective is Bill the comic relief?

    The same messed-up perspective that sees Charlie as the hero?

    She might've meant Jack. And she DEFINITELY doesn't know that Bill is a mentally-damaged lech/rapist. (i initially typed that as 'racist' - heh)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 304
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:09 pm 
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    HalfTangible wrote:
    Polvane the eraser wrote:
    Also, did Shirley just refer to Bill as the comic relief? In what kind of weird Stagemancy and perspective is Bill the comic relief?

    The same messed-up perspective that sees Charlie as the hero?

    She might've meant Jack. And she DEFINITELY doesn't know that Bill is a mentally-damaged lech/rapist. (i initially typed that as 'racist' - heh)

    Yeah, the idea that she meant Jack was an interesting insight, and I tipped the first one to mention it, but I don't think it's correct.

    In context, she has to mean Bill, and it's because she doesn't know Bill's history the way we do. To her, Bill is just Igor.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 304
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:13 pm 
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    Could Ben, Jack & Maggie tri-link using Ben's juice as source of power for Money-Foola-Mancy shenanigans? If i remember correctly, casters pool their juice in a link & run out all together ...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 304
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:24 pm 
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    Ansan Gotti wrote:
    That's all finished by the time of the last couple of pages.
    But the spell was already cast on the necklace by the time it ended and it was activated within 6 panels of that ending. Jack and Maggie still never had a chance to stop this Charlie plan because they were busy stopping the OTHER one and the plan was set up while they were suborned.
    Ansan Gotti wrote:
    The beef I have is that even if we grant everything you described, the end result is that he's basically standing there dumbfounded for two pages while his friend and Ruler is captured. And it's not a good look. Surely you can get where I'm coming from?
    Parson couldn't get through a door for literally 2 years real time. The fact Benny hasn't solved Charlie's elaborate con in 2 (non text) pages or even preemptively seen Bill's betrayal coming and undone it falls a bit flat for me.
    Quote:
    My impression is that the last two pages were a little longer than that, but regardless, the impact on this reader is that Charlie does his usual dance, simple Bill not only folds like a wet napkin but also pulls off a flawless con in front of people who ought to know better, and Ben, Jack, and Maggie (again, post-Jed) just stand there.
    See, it's the "who ought to know better" that's the lynchpin of this to me. Know WHAT better? That Charlie has definitely suborned Bill to launch a decapitation strike on Caeser? Remember, what Bill is being accused of isn't maliciously working with the enemy against TV, it's going against orders to work with an enemy for what he believes is the good of the side at Vanna's behest. He went against Caeser's orders and helped eliminate Parson because Charlie and Vanna convinced him it was in TV's best interests and he likes Vanna. But since they already KNEW Vanna was on Charlie's side and they didn't disband HER right away because her motives were unclear and she was still potentially useful, why would they know to do it to Bill who was believed to be working FOR Vanna? He was admitting to everything and arguing that Charlie's contract means he isn't a threat in a way that's completely in line with his character and gave a 100% plausible stall tactic. Which means that Benny and Caeser thinking he was a dupe makes WAY more sense from their POV than thinking he's a traitor. He's put up with everything that happened to him since Ponzie without turning on the side once, why would they ever suspect THIS would be his breaking point? Caeser was worried about VANNA turning him remember. Not Charlie. Like... especially since Bill was right. GK probably DID kill Roger via the maggieonette and Jed. And Caeser and Benny haven't yet managed to sort out that very recent incident, which is gonna be a huge diplomatic problem for them. But you know what would probably help with that? A dollamancer who can tell them more about the maggionette. Like... if the tower hadn't awoken and gone "BILL IS DEFINITELY A TRAITOR I KNOW BECAUSE MAGIC" Ben would have had time to prepare for Charlie's Hat Trick but from "he's a traitor" to "magic death amulet betrayal" was 2 or 3 panels tops.

    Like..I guess my issue is that I just have no idea what your version of these events would have been? How do you see these last few pages playing out differently without giving the TV leadership meta-knowledge? Like... assume you don't know that will definitely turn traitor. You haven't read the contract, but assume it probably has non-agression for 100 turns... why NOT let Bill cast right now? If you figure out he's up to something you can just take the necklace off. It's not like his plan, even if he has one, is going to kick off between now and when the contract gets here... That would require some hitherto unseen and unheardof act of titanic magic to force a hand like that. And why would that ever happen? Once the Jed hack ended it was only 6 panels before Bill activated the necklace during which everyone was figuring out the tower thing. So unless you thought that Jack or Maggie were supposed to ignore the sudden creation of a new Tower Golem (potentially by Charlie), and instead charge at Caeser to grab his necklace because they vaguely remembered something about Bill casting on it while being brain drained and also figured out he was a traitor... or that Caeser should disband anyone who is even vaguely suspicious or MIGHT be up to something or who ever disobeys an order, which would probably have led to him disbanding Vanna before all of this anyways... Once that necklace trap was sprung it was game over. Benny can't do anything because Bill can pop his Ruler if he does. The action phase ended before it began and we're back to the negotiation and contract phase... which is where Benny is most likely to perform well.

    _________________
    -IRL Thinkamancer/Mathamancer in training and full time Charlie apologist.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 304
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:53 pm 
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    On the topic of surprise and units acting to help/protect/etc Caeser:

    The tower awakening would have through all TV units into "WTF???". A totally unheard of, outside the norm, reality bending/shaking event. If they were trying to quickly figure out what was happening with Bill's treachery and about to take action, the tower changing/waking up would have/should have disrupted all their reactions into at best a slight delay, at worst a deer in the headlights 'wtf??'.

    Didn't seem to phase Bill, of course, but hey.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 304
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:58 pm 
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    Merilynne wrote:
    Spoiler: show
    Sticking my neck out...

    Ok, we keep seeing Charlie in the Lion PJs and granted, it could be just a visual construct of Shirley viewing him as a child, but maybe it's more.

    When Wanda talked to the Isaac-doll about Maxwell's golems, she really didn't say much about the Lion. She was pretty open about A. Dummy and Jerry Can, but Isaac had asked specifically about the Lion, somewhat implying he was different from the others.

    It appears that Charlie was still ruler of El-Efbaum when the golems were created. Isaac says, "When Max went Bad, the Great Minds took frequent trips to observe him. I understand how the golems generally behaved," but after Wanda asks if he knows what happened when Max croaked, he says, "We didn't see. We couldn't after Charlie attuned." So, Charlie attuned to the Arkendish sometime between when the golems were created and Maxwell croaked.

    When she and Isaac were talking about bringing a croaked unit back to life, Wanda said, "It was a mistake. One we never repeated." and then continued, "I could restore you. Perhaps... perhaps not like the Lion..."

    We know that Max used his string for the scarecrow and tin man, but what if, in his experiments, he used a string from Charlie to create the Lion? If he did, it would certainly give Charlie the insight into "real dolls" that he claimed he had when talking to Bill.

    Wanda claims that Olive tried to croak Charlie. What if she was successful and Wanda and Max tried to restore him, maybe even using the Lion's string? Maxwell probably even had some insight into Carnamancy after working with Charlie before, and this could be the "mistake" Wanda was talking about, and the explanation for Charlie's paraplegia.

    I know it's a lot of speculation, but this could explain both why Wanda was reticent to talk about the Lion, and why Shirley keeps putting him in the Lion costume/jammies.


    Mmmm mmmm ... . . .... going to probe this a bit. I'd swear we saw the Lion in a shot and that it very much looked like Lion-O of Thundercats fame.

    Yes - here, we have a good visual of all of Max's golems. That definitely doesn't match what we're seeing with Charlie in his baby outfit. We also see him here in HvstCF 287 walking the Yellow Brick Road with the expected party while a younger Isaac spies on them.

    Then we get into Wanda and Isaac talking about the lion here in 287. Nothing specific there that refutes what you're saying...but...hm.

    The Lion was specifically made to demonstrate the creation of Life (to rub Olive's nose in it as much as anything), per 287. We also know from that panel that the Lion "was lost" when Judy Gale and the Scarecrow, Tin Man, and Lion went on an adventure. I'd say it's safe to say that the Lion was croaked or otherwise destroyed as we are also told later in the same page that once Max croaked the golems "lost their Life...if they'd ever had it. They became an ordinary scarecrow and metal golem." That leads me to believe the Lion had already been destroyed, based on its notable omission from that list, coupled with the previous statement about it already having been lost.

    And...oh...you've made me stumble into a sad place, but I think it may (at least in part) take away some support from your theory:
    In H vs tCF 288, there's a panel showing a silhouette of Wanda with two gravestones behind on a hilltop. The only place I know of in Erfworld like this would be Wanda's Garden.

    Presumably we're being shown whomever she and Max tried to restore life to after uncroaking. I thought it might be Tommy at first, but he's been given a cenotaph per IPTSF 39 so I don't think that's who it was. I wonder who it was. I do think Charlie was involved with the croaking/destruction of the Lion though, but that's assuming that the shot of the golem trio with Judy heading down the Yellow Brick Road was the adventure on which it was lost.

    I read the "not like the lion" to be Wanda thinking aloud and coming to the conclusion that she could indeed give Life to Isaac-golem but in a different manner, presumably by using the Arkenpliers in some fashion (she alludes to this later if I recall correctly, basically offering to croak/decrypt Isaac in some fashion. That doesn't add to this discussion so I'm not going to dig that up here).

    All-in-all, a really interesting theory, Merilynne, and one that doesn't have any glaring holes, in truth, though it's a little shaky in places. You add a lot to the discussion. Maybe it's the wiener-dog... :)

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     Post Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:24 pm 
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    Merilynne wrote:
    Sticking my neck out...
    Spoiler: show
    Ok, we keep seeing Charlie in the Lion PJs and granted, it could be just a visual construct of Shirley viewing him as a child, but maybe it's more.

    When Wanda talked to the Isaac-doll about Maxwell's golems, she really didn't say much about the Lion. She was pretty open about A. Dummy and Jerry Can, but Isaac had asked specifically about the Lion, somewhat implying he was different from the others.

    It appears that Charlie was still ruler of El-Efbaum when the golems were created. Isaac says, "When Max went Bad, the Great Minds took frequent trips to observe him. I understand how the golems generally behaved," but after Wanda asks if he knows what happened when Max croaked, he says, "We didn't see. We couldn't after Charlie attuned." So, Charlie attuned to the Arkendish sometime between when the golems were created and Maxwell croaked.

    When she and Isaac were talking about bringing a croaked unit back to life, Wanda said, "It was a mistake. One we never repeated." and then continued, "I could restore you. Perhaps... perhaps not like the Lion..."

    We know that Max used his string for the scarecrow and tin man, but what if, in his experiments, he used a string from Charlie to create the Lion? If he did, it would certainly give Charlie the insight into "real dolls" that he claimed he had when talking to Bill.

    Wanda claims that Olive tried to croak Charlie. What if she was successful and Wanda and Max tried to restore him, maybe even using the Lion's string? Maxwell probably even had some insight into Carnamancy after working with Charlie before, and this could be the "mistake" Wanda was talking about, and the explanation for Charlie's paraplegia.

    I know it's a lot of speculation, but this could explain both why Wanda was reticent to talk about the Lion, and why Shirley keeps putting him in the Lion costume/jammies.

    Could have sworn I've seen a similar theory when Charlie's jammies were first shown...
    Merilynne wrote:
    Fla_Panther wrote:
    You know, it just occurred to me ... what if Charlie IS the lion? We've been told the lion died but I mean ... unreliable narrators and all that ... I can't say it's not outside the realm of possibility here.

    I don't see how he could be. Charlie helped create the summoning spell that brought Judy Gale to Erfworld, and the Lion wasn't created until after she became Overlady.

    And shot down before it could blossom...

    I mean no offence, I was just wondering why everyone was treating this like a new idea, and now I see it lost it's currency shortly after it was first uttered.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 304
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:35 pm 
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    As to why Charlie ultimately agrees with Shirley's idea (for now):
    Quote:
    There's probably a better outcome on the table...

    Charlie wants the gems that used to be GK's treasury, which might be destroyed or in some other way made unrecoverable following a tutelary tower collapse.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 304
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:42 pm 
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    Anomynous 167 wrote:
    kaylasdad99 wrote:
    Anybody else a bit gobsmacked that Bill trapped that pendant on his own initiative?

    I wouldn't call:

    Bill:"What am I supposed to do, man?!"
    Charlie: "Capture him prisoner".


    Bill's own innititive. Unless you're referring to Bill's initial transformation of Caesar's livery. Then it is still not really Bill's inititive since he was linked with Charlie at the time.
    Actually, I was referring to Bill's tampering with the pendant in the first place, converting it into a Chokemancy trap. It's clear from Charlie's comments to Shirley that he was not expecting that. Ergo, trapping the pendant was something Bill did on his own initiative.

    Q.E.D.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 304
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:14 pm 
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    Yshl wrote:
    Merilynne wrote:
    Spoiler: show
    Sticking my neck out...

    Ok, we keep seeing Charlie in the Lion PJs and granted, it could be just a visual construct of Shirley viewing him as a child, but maybe it's more.

    When Wanda talked to the Isaac-doll about Maxwell's golems, she really didn't say much about the Lion. She was pretty open about A. Dummy and Jerry Can, but Isaac had asked specifically about the Lion, somewhat implying he was different from the others.

    It appears that Charlie was still ruler of El-Efbaum when the golems were created. Isaac says, "When Max went Bad, the Great Minds took frequent trips to observe him. I understand how the golems generally behaved," but after Wanda asks if he knows what happened when Max croaked, he says, "We didn't see. We couldn't after Charlie attuned." So, Charlie attuned to the Arkendish sometime between when the golems were created and Maxwell croaked.

    When she and Isaac were talking about bringing a croaked unit back to life, Wanda said, "It was a mistake. One we never repeated." and then continued, "I could restore you. Perhaps... perhaps not like the Lion..."

    We know that Max used his string for the scarecrow and tin man, but what if, in his experiments, he used a string from Charlie to create the Lion? If he did, it would certainly give Charlie the insight into "real dolls" that he claimed he had when talking to Bill.

    Wanda claims that Olive tried to croak Charlie. What if she was successful and Wanda and Max tried to restore him, maybe even using the Lion's string? Maxwell probably even had some insight into Carnamancy after working with Charlie before, and this could be the "mistake" Wanda was talking about, and the explanation for Charlie's paraplegia.

    I know it's a lot of speculation, but this could explain both why Wanda was reticent to talk about the Lion, and why Shirley keeps putting him in the Lion costume/jammies.


    Mmmm mmmm ... . . .... going to probe this a bit. I'd swear we saw the Lion in a shot and that it very much looked like Lion-O of Thundercats fame.

    Yes - here, we have a good visual of all of Max's golems. That definitely doesn't match what we're seeing with Charlie in his baby outfit. We also see him here in HvstCF 287 walking the Yellow Brick Road with the expected party while a younger Isaac spies on them.

    Then we get into Wanda and Isaac talking about the lion here in 287. Nothing specific there that refutes what you're saying...but...hm.

    The Lion was specifically made to demonstrate the creation of Life (to rub Olive's nose in it as much as anything), per 287. We also know from that panel that the Lion "was lost" when Judy Gale and the Scarecrow, Tin Man, and Lion went on an adventure. I'd say it's safe to say that the Lion was croaked or otherwise destroyed as we are also told later in the same page that once Max croaked the golems "lost their Life...if they'd ever had it. They became an ordinary scarecrow and metal golem." That leads me to believe the Lion had already been destroyed, based on its notable omission from that list, coupled with the previous statement about it already having been lost.

    And...oh...you've made me stumble into a sad place, but I think it may (at least in part) take away some support from your theory:
    In H vs tCF 288, there's a panel showing a silhouette of Wanda with two gravestones behind on a hilltop. The only place I know of in Erfworld like this would be Wanda's Garden.

    Presumably we're being shown whomever she and Max tried to restore life to after uncroaking. I thought it might be Tommy at first, but he's been given a cenotaph per IPTSF 39 so I don't think that's who it was. I wonder who it was. I do think Charlie was involved with the croaking/destruction of the Lion though, but that's assuming that the shot of the golem trio with Judy heading down the Yellow Brick Road was the adventure on which it was lost.

    I read the "not like the lion" to be Wanda thinking aloud and coming to the conclusion that she could indeed give Life to Isaac-golem but in a different manner, presumably by using the Arkenpliers in some fashion (she alludes to this later if I recall correctly, basically offering to croak/decrypt Isaac in some fashion. That doesn't add to this discussion so I'm not going to dig that up here).

    All-in-all, a really interesting theory, Merilynne, and one that doesn't have any glaring holes, in truth, though it's a little shaky in places. You add a lot to the discussion. Maybe it's the wiener-dog... :)

    It's definitely the weiner-dog; she'll tell you that, anyday. ;)

    I realize that baby-Charlie in pajamas doesn't look just like fully-grown Lion, but there must be something behind the persona. On the other hand, maybe it's just a baby in pajamas that looks cute to Shirley. :)

    Regarding the two tombstones, it could be one for the actual Lion and one for Maxwell. I know Wanda considered Max a friend, so it wouldn't be out of character for her to create a stone in her garden for him, at least.

    I know it's shaky, and if in the very next update it's totally disproven... oh well. For now, though it does fit the little we know. ;)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 304
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:19 pm 
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    kaylasdad99 wrote:
    Anomynous 167 wrote:
    kaylasdad99 wrote:
    Anybody else a bit gobsmacked that Bill trapped that pendant on his own initiative?

    I wouldn't call:

    Bill:"What am I supposed to do, man?!"
    Charlie: "Capture him prisoner".


    Bill's own innititive. Unless you're referring to Bill's initial transformation of Caesar's livery. Then it is still not really Bill's inititive since he was linked with Charlie at the time.
    Actually, I was referring to Bill's tampering with the pendant in the first place, converting it into a Chokemancy trap. It's clear from Charlie's comments to Shirley that he was not expecting that. Ergo, trapping the pendant was something Bill did on his own initiative.

    Q.E.D.

    I don't think Charlie was referring to the pendant trap when he said, "Wasn't the plan." I think he was meaning that it "wasn't the plan" for the tower to threaten to collapse itself. He proceeds to reason it out that they'd still get their 20 million shmuckers back (must have been a million penalty for Bill turning?), Jack and Maggie would be dead with no contract penalty for him, etc.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 304
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:20 pm 
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    kaylasdad99 wrote:
    Anomynous 167 wrote:
    kaylasdad99 wrote:
    Anybody else a bit gobsmacked that Bill trapped that pendant on his own initiative?

    I wouldn't call:

    Bill:"What am I supposed to do, man?!"
    Charlie: "Capture him prisoner".


    Bill's own innititive. Unless you're referring to Bill's initial transformation of Caesar's livery. Then it is still not really Bill's inititive since he was linked with Charlie at the time.
    Actually, I was referring to Bill's tampering with the pendant in the first place, converting it into a Chokemancy trap. It's clear from Charlie's comments to Shirley that he was not expecting that. Ergo, trapping the pendant was something Bill did on his own initiative.

    Q.E.D.

    Huh, my mistake was reading the comic "top to bottom - left to right", instead of the proper "left to right - top to bottom" (like you're normally supposed to do when you read a comic). Or maybe I did read the comic in the proper order originally (I forget, it was yesterday).

    I thought the bit that wasn't part of the plan was Transilvito's tower turning into a golem and threatening to come tumbling down.

    edit: Also I was referring to the changing of Caesar's pendant into a choking device, when I was referring to the change of livery, not about Caesar becoming a prisoner.


    Last edited by Anomynous 167 on Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 304
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:32 pm 
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    Merilynne wrote:
    kaylasdad99 wrote:
    [quote="Anomynous
    I wouldn't call:

    Bill:"What am I supposed to do, man?!"
    Charlie: "Capture him prisoner".


    Bill's own innititive. Unless you're referring to Bill's initial transformation of Caesar's livery. Then it is still not really Bill's inititive since he was linked with Charlie at the time.
    Actually, I was referring to Bill's tampering with the pendant in the first place, converting it into a Chokemancy trap. It's clear from Charlie's comments to Shirley that he was not expecting that. Ergo, trapping the pendant was something Bill did on his own initiative.

    Q.E.D.

    I don't think Charlie was referring to the pendant trap when he said, "Wasn't the plan." I think he was meaning that it "wasn't the plan" for the tower to threaten to collapse itself. He proceeds to reason it out that they'd still get their 20 million shmuckers back (must have been a million penalty for Bill turning?), Jack and Maggie would be dead with no contract penalty for him, etc.[/quote]


    Shirley is talking about the tower messing up the plan. We didn't get to see Charlie and Bill planning, but I can't see Bill coming up with the trap attack without running it by Charlie.

    It is more likely to me that the basic plan was Charlie's, and Bill had no idea what to do afterwards. I suspect that the basic plan was croak Caesar, take over the city, which is easy enough for Bill to work with. No big risk, once the trap is placed.

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