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 Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 303
 Post Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:46 am 
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Why do Erfworlders boink?

To be honest, I’ve never given it a lot of thought. And now that the subject has been raised, I have to acknowledge that I’ve never given a lot of thought to the question of why D&D players who include casual sex in taverns with comely wenches as part of their between-dungeons activities don’t seem to worry that some NPC they meet is going to turn out to be their own offspring from a random encounter several campaigns ago.

The introduction of Little Kudzu to the OOTS storyline is an outlier in this regard, of course.

Anyhow, if we come to a consensus on why tabletop RPGrs have (in-game) sex, perhaps that will provide some insight as to why Erfworlders do.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 303
     Post Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:01 am 
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    Egil wrote:
    neko wrote:
    Assuming Parson and co make it out of this mess, and assuming we have Decrypted Archons left who can give intel, I'll be sadly disappointed if Parson doesn't spend Schmuckers to get a Signamancer to publish a tell-all book on Charlie/Charlescomm. Once it's released into the libraries of Erf, Charlie would have to invest quite a lot to do PR damage control.


    Well, the thing is, Parson probably doesn't know that's an option. That was mentioned in a sidestory, and I'd imagine it's that sort of "everybody knows that" thing which people never really thought to tell Parson because not only does everybody know it, but because that same story made it seem as though it was seen as a fairly pointless thing to do by most. It'd be an interesting thing to do, don't get me wrong; a smear campaign on CC using his own archons would be one hell of a PR nightmare, but I don't believe Parson is even aware of that possibility.


    ISTR Parson having mentioned perusing the GK library in one of his Klog entries in TBFGK. It strikes me as out of character that he would not pursue the subject of libraries, including the mechanics of book-generation in the free time he enjoyed from the rebuilding of the city until he reassumed the role of Chief Warlord.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 303
     Post Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:59 am 
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    I would like to therorize that sex may have a role in unit production in erfworld. We have already seen that Albert has Transylvitian Signamancy despite being Jillian's son, and Vinnie was her lover at the time. Albert even looked up to Vinnie as a father figure, at least until the betrayal. That isn't the only example. Ace Hardware seems to have inherited the signamancy of the Jetstone princely line, and the Dollamancy of his Mother, Holly Shortcake, which Ace himself interpreted as a Sign from fate. Granted, i'll admit that is not confirmed, as Slately was not popping an heir at the time, but she was Chief caster as well. And as signamancy is on the fate axis, after all, with it being the fate branch of Hippiemancy, which utilizes life and matter. Granted, this being true would most likely be a Magically(?) enforced secret of Signamancy, as the implications of this getting out would extremely Dangerous in Erfworld.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 303
     Post Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:27 am 
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    Mithiwithi wrote:
    Anomynous 167 wrote:
    A third possibility is that right now Caesar is paying his own debt to Fate. It's been hinted at back on page 61 that the a Titans and or Fate wanted Caesar to become a ruler. Benny and Don keep talking about how he keeps beating the odds and that he ends up doing better the more impossible the task.
    What I am saying is that now that Caesar has become a Caesar Fate no longer cares for him, and that all his near death experiences have cought up to him.
    '
    It's not always about Charlie.


    Maybe the only purpose Fate had for keeping Caesar alive was as a motivation for Bunny to sacrifice herself to prevent Don King from croaking Caesar - because otherwise there would've been no obstacle to Don King having Parson turned and then ordered to cast the scroll. In other words, maybe Fate never even cared about Caesar being a Ruler as such - it was just engaging in yet another gambit to keep Parson on Erfworld.

    If that were the case then Caesar wouldn't have ordered Don not to speak with Parson before he did. Had Don gotten the opportunity to become chums with Parson, things likely could have been avoided to go this far.
    What I mean to say is that Caesar trying to be the first to talk to Parson seemed like a set-up (by Fate) to drive a wedge between him and Don King. Parson going full "Columbo"* on the Transilvitan leadership while they slept was a tertiary gambit to instill Caesar on the throne (short may he reign), that was foiled by Maggie.

    Oh right, we're talking maybes. Forgot about that case and started arguing.

    Anyways, something that has just occurred to me as I was going through the archives. Knowing that there exists a book in scripture called "The Book of Ray", with that in mind Parson quoting Ghost Busters takes on a different meaning to Don's ears.
    Quote:
    Ray, when someone asks you if you're a god, you say YES!

    Sounds like how an ignoble warlord would cite scripture, foregoing verse numbers... now I'm starting to wonder if Don King actually thought Parson was quoting the book of Ray (and if what Parson said was a quote), and was surprised by the quote. If so, then Parson just went against what scripture said.

    (Then again, Don King could have said "Beg your pardon" since Parson said "God", the relatively loud "YES!" Parson did, Parson talking softly, or because Don is hard of hearing)


    *(I didn't watch the show mentioned in Page 182)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 303
     Post Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:06 am 
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    kaylasdad99 wrote:
    Why do Erfworlders boink?


    Because it's great.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 303
     Post Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:21 am 
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    DukeofTuring wrote:
    Adept wrote:
    No, evolution doesn’t happen on the species level. A more clear way to think about it is that we are vessels by which genes replicate themselves. Genes which result in an increased chance of leaving viable offspring increase their frequency in the population.
    Evolution happens extensively at a species level. A species is, after all, the population of organisms able to reproduce with them/itself and pass on their genetic material. Horizontal gene transfer is pretty rare with organisms consisting of more than a single cell.

    EDIT: Or were you talking about taxonomic levels? From that viewpoint evolution happens exclusively on a species level.

    No. Group selection is not real, and species are fluid groups where the borders are less well defined than you may think.

    Individuals are subject to natural selection, but the actual things being propagated (or not) are the genes themselves. We living creatures can be seen as the vessels that genes use to replicate themselves. They are the things that endure and pass on, as individuals come and go.

    Richard Dawkins wrote a very good book on the subject. He wanted to name it "the Immortal Gene" but his publisher decided to go with "The Selfish Gene" because it sounded more edgy.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 303
     Post Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:25 am 
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    Skull the Troll wrote:
    JadedDragoon wrote:
    *Snip*

    In an evolutionary context, we desire sex because it produces children and keeps the species alive. But in a behavioral context, we have sex because we desire sex... not because we desire children. We never evolved a desire for children.


    That last sentence is pretty wrong. Many billions of people have an evolved desire for children. Aside from that it's pretty easy to find this desire stated in literature going from everything from The Handmaids Tale to the Old Testament.

    You are mixing up cultural conditioning and evolutionary traits.

    Incidentally there is now a selection pressure for specifically wanting to have children, as reliable birth control is decoupling sex and procreation.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 303
     Post Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:57 am 
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    TimeBot wrote:
    Ace Hardware seems to have inherited the signamancy of the Jetstone princely line, and the Dollamancy of his Mother, Holly Shortcake, which Ace himself interpreted as a Sign from fate.
    I agree with most of what you're saying. Inheriting signamancy has been discussed, but I don't think I've seen signamancy's place in Erfworld's magic system broken down like that before. That said, let me point out that Holly died before Ace popped, probably at least a few turns earlier if they had already had a parade in her honor and started reworking their side's strategy to function without a dollamancer.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 303
     Post Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:06 pm 
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    Adept wrote:
    DukeofTuring wrote:
    Adept wrote:
    No, evolution doesn’t happen on the species level. A more clear way to think about it is that we are vessels by which genes replicate themselves. Genes which result in an increased chance of leaving viable offspring increase their frequency in the population.
    Evolution happens extensively at a species level. A species is, after all, the population of organisms able to reproduce with them/itself and pass on their genetic material. Horizontal gene transfer is pretty rare with organisms consisting of more than a single cell.

    EDIT: Or were you talking about taxonomic levels? From that viewpoint evolution happens exclusively on a species level.

    No. Group selection is not real, and species are fluid groups where the borders are less well defined than you may think.

    Individuals are subject to natural selection, but the actual things being propagated (or not) are the genes themselves. We living creatures can be seen as the vessels that genes use to replicate themselves. They are the things that endure and pass on, as individuals come and go.

    Richard Dawkins wrote a very good book on the subject. He wanted to name it "the Immortal Gene" but his publisher decided to go with "The Selfish Gene" because it sounded more edgy.
    Ah, so I was completely missing the point there :?. Sounds interesting

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 303
     Post Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:08 pm 
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    Anomynous 167 wrote:
    What I mean to say is that Caesar trying to be the first to talk to Parson seemed like a set-up (by Fate) to drive a wedge between him and Don King. Parson going full "Columbo"* on the Transilvitan leadership while they slept was a tertiary gambit to instill Caesar on the throne (short may he reign), that was foiled by Maggie.

    *(I didn't watch the show mentioned in Page 182)

    <Sigh> "Columbo" was a television series starring Peter Falk, of Princess Bride, as a detective. It wasn't particularly brutal. "Columbine" refers to the Columbine High School massacre, where 12 students and a teacher were murdered in 1999. It's a well-known reference in the U.S., but probably not as much outside of our borders.

    Quote:
    He tried to picture exactly what it would involve: the three of them stalking the halls of Transylvito, gunning down anything and anybody that moved. Not a glorious battle. He could only imagine it like the cafeteria footage from Columbine.
    Hvs.tCF 182

    Edit: Added quote and references to clarify.

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    Last edited by Merilynne on Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 303
     Post Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:22 pm 
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    Adept wrote:
    Skull the Troll wrote:
    That last sentence is pretty wrong. Many billions of people have an evolved desire for children. Aside from that it's pretty easy to find this desire stated in literature going from everything from The Handmaids Tale to the Old Testament.

    You are mixing up cultural conditioning and evolutionary traits.

    Incidentally there is now a selection pressure for specifically wanting to have children, as reliable birth control is decoupling sex and procreation.
    Can you really describe something as the product of cultural conditioning if every culture in the world displays it? Doesn't that suggest some deeper biological impulse?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 303
     Post Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:56 pm 
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    Merilynne wrote:
    Anomynous 167 wrote:
    What I mean to say is that Caesar trying to be the first to talk to Parson seemed like a set-up (by Fate) to drive a wedge between him and Don King. Parson going full "Columbo"* on the Transilvitan leadership while they slept was a tertiary gambit to instill Caesar on the throne (short may he reign), that was foiled by Maggie.

    *(I didn't watch the show mentioned in Page 182)

    <Sigh> "Columbo" was a television series starring Peter Falk, of Princess Bride, as a detective. It wasn't particularly brutal. "Columbine" refers to the Columbine High School massacre, where 12 students and a teacher were murdered in 1999. It's a well-known reference in the U.S., but probably not as much outside of our borders.

    Here, have some shmuckers for saving me the trouble.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 303
     Post Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:41 pm 
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    kaylasdad99 wrote:
    Merilynne wrote:
    Anomynous 167 wrote:
    What I mean to say is that Caesar trying to be the first to talk to Parson seemed like a set-up (by Fate) to drive a wedge between him and Don King. Parson going full "Columbo"* on the Transilvitan leadership while they slept was a tertiary gambit to instill Caesar on the throne (short may he reign), that was foiled by Maggie.

    *(I didn't watch the show mentioned in Page 182)

    <Sigh> "Columbo" was a television series starring Peter Falk, of Princess Bride, as a detective. It wasn't particularly brutal. "Columbine" refers to the Columbine High School massacre, where 12 students and a teacher were murdered in 1999. It's a well-known reference in the U.S., but probably not as much outside of our borders.

    Here, have some shmuckers for saving me the trouble.


    Thanks. :) Normally, I'd have just assumed it was a typo and skipped over it, but since he mentioned "the show," I thought he might actually be confused.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 303
     Post Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:15 pm 
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    Adept wrote:
    Incidentally there is now a selection pressure for specifically wanting to have children, as reliable birth control is decoupling sex and procreation.


    That is a very interesting point!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 303
     Post Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:21 pm 
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    DukeofTuring wrote:
    Adept wrote:
    Skull the Troll wrote:
    That last sentence is pretty wrong. Many billions of people have an evolved desire for children. Aside from that it's pretty easy to find this desire stated in literature going from everything from The Handmaids Tale to the Old Testament.

    You are mixing up cultural conditioning and evolutionary traits.

    Incidentally there is now a selection pressure for specifically wanting to have children, as reliable birth control is decoupling sex and procreation.
    Can you really describe something as the product of cultural conditioning if every culture in the world displays it? Doesn't that suggest some deeper biological impulse?


    Heh. If you really want to blow your mind, read or listen to some Joeseph Campbell. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Campbell) He does a cross-cultural analysis of religion and mythology, and comes up with a LOT of startling parallels. Those basic themes also appear in fiction and story telling, including our beloved Erfworld. They hypothesis is that these commonalities arise from how the brain works, which evolved in a primitive world as a survival tool.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 303
     Post Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:12 pm 
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    DukeofTuring wrote:
    Adept wrote:
    Skull the Troll wrote:
    That last sentence is pretty wrong. Many billions of people have an evolved desire for children. Aside from that it's pretty easy to find this desire stated in literature going from everything from The Handmaids Tale to the Old Testament.

    You are mixing up cultural conditioning and evolutionary traits.

    Incidentally there is now a selection pressure for specifically wanting to have children, as reliable birth control is decoupling sex and procreation.
    Can you really describe something as the product of cultural conditioning if every culture in the world displays it? Doesn't that suggest some deeper biological impulse?

    No. Cultural evolution is a separate phenomenon. I have a fair bit of studies in behavioral ecology and evolutionary psychology. A biological drive to have babies doesn't exist as such. Cultural expectations and conditioning does.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 303
     Post Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:20 pm 
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    Goshen wrote:
    Heh. If you really want to blow your mind, read or listen to some Joeseph Campbell. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Campbell) He does a cross-cultural analysis of religion and mythology, and comes up with a LOT of startling parallels. Those basic themes also appear in fiction and story telling, including our beloved Erfworld. They hypothesis is that these commonalities arise from how the brain works, which evolved in a primitive world as a survival tool.

    The brain is a costly, energy hungry organ. Evolutionarily speaking every part of us has had to earn it's keep, or it would be selected against.

    It can be annoying how our brains don't keep reliable records and our senses don't function as proper cameras and microphones.

    The reason is that they have not evolved for that. Quickly determining of there's a lion setting an ambush at the watering hole is more what the brain is about. That's why we are worried in the dark, and can wig out over a harmless spider.

    Cars are insanely dangerous but we have no instinctive fear of them for example. Why, despite a lot of people dying under cars every year? They are too new, in evolutionary time. A snake or a bear is immediately much more scary, because it's practically hard wired in as a threat.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 303
     Post Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:04 pm 
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    JadedDragoon wrote:
    I'm growing impatient with retreading the same ground over and over. I've already made my arguments and thus far no one whose insisted I'm wrong has actually done anything to counter those arguments. Instead, it's been the same set of strawmen and false equivocation over and over.

    ...blah blah blah self-important grand-standing blah blah blah...

    Shall I keep going? No? Good... cause I'm not going to. In the absence of any counterarguments to the arguments I've actually made and with the addition of the scientific literature on the subject favoring my claims. I'm considering this subject settled. Let's move on.


    Many people have made counter arguments to your claims, and posting walls of text (most of which are completely irrelevant to your own original point) doesn't magically make you right. You're wrong (for many reasons stated by people with more time than me).

    Accept it or not, it doesn't really matter.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 303
     Post Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:15 pm 
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    Adept wrote:
    Goshen wrote:
    Heh. If you really want to blow your mind, read or listen to some Joeseph Campbell. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Campbell) He does a cross-cultural analysis of religion and mythology, and comes up with a LOT of startling parallels. Those basic themes also appear in fiction and story telling, including our beloved Erfworld. They hypothesis is that these commonalities arise from how the brain works, which evolved in a primitive world as a survival tool.

    The brain is a costly, energy hungry organ. Evolutionarily speaking every part of us has had to earn it's keep, or it would be selected against.

    It can be annoying how our brains don't keep reliable records and our senses don't function as proper cameras and microphones.

    The reason is that they have not evolved for that. Quickly determining of there's a lion setting an ambush at the watering hole is more what the brain is about. That's why we are worried in the dark, and can wig out over a harmless spider.

    Cars are insanely dangerous but we have no instinctive fear of them for example. Why, despite a lot of people dying under cars every year? They are too new, in evolutionary time. A snake or a bear is immediately much more scary, because it's practically hard wired in as a threat.


    I agree on all your points, but have to qualify: It's very difficult to separate nature from nurture. From some valid points of view, it may be impossible. For example, the recent evidence that life trauma can cause genetic changes that are then passed on to one's children. Not proof, mind you, but evidence.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 303
     Post Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:23 pm 
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    Citizen Alan wrote:
    Metallicat wrote:
    What hope does TV have here? Benjamin is aware of the attack, but can he stop it in time? Even a quick attack on Bill might not stop a magic trap kill. I hoped that Ben could spot any trap in Bill's casting, but either Bill is good enough to fool him or Charlie helped.



    One minor but potentially interesting detail -- we're about to find out if Moneymancers have any offensive capabilities at all beyond the basic Hoboken.


    Maybe Benjamin can hoboken the amulet string. Doubt it's that much of a precision tool, though, more like a blunt instrument. Still, Cesar might survive it.

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